CBC: "Depression eased when ketamine prescribed for pain, U.S. team finds"

From CBC, May 3, 2017:

"Depression eased when ketamine prescribed for pain, U.S. team finds"

"Ketamine called a possible alternative treatment for severe depression"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/ketamine-depression-1.4098253

Serious stuff ketamine. Not something I'd want to try. It's primarily used to maintain anesthesia and acts on opioid receptors in the brain. Veterinarians use it to sedate horses. I know it has a reputation for abuse and has similar reactions as PCP. There has been some promotion of ketamine in the UK in recent years for treatment resistant depression.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-26647738

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39501566

Anyone who seriously contemplates taking ketamine has to be desperate and from what I understand this is usually the case. Trouble is people like David Taylor professor of psychopharmacology at the Maudsley Hospital has made this comment in support of ketamine: "It shows that depression is something chemical, that it can be reversed...."

They keep trotting out that old myth of a chemical imbalance/deficiency. Where can I take the test?   

Hi pris!

It does seem strange to me that they keep chasing after some chemical way to deal with depression, as if they just need to find the perfect recipe to make it magically go away. No therapy required! Just a hit of this, and you'll feel instantly better!

Right.

Hi Lapis,

How's things? The magic solution via the chemical cure has so far been a mirage but you can understand how seductive it can be for people. I do think it has a lot to do with validation within the ranks of psychiatry. They want to have the same parity with the rest of the medical profession. Instead of looking into the many complex reasons why folk have mental health issues it's a lot easier just to hand out the pills. It keeps a lid on a lot of social problems. Boy, I'm getting cynical in my old age!

Hi pris,

I do understand the forces behind psychatry's search for the magic bullet. And I also understand why people want to believe it's possible to find a chemical cure for their ills. However, if all of these people were forced to experience the hell of a bad withdrawal from an SSRI or benzo, they'd have a completely different attitude. We all need to be much, much more skeptical about medications and their supposed safety.

(As an aside, I just finished watching a documentary on thalidomide survivors and feel quite sickened by the actions of the pharmaceutical company responsible. The trust that the public places in their doctors, public health departments, drug regulators and pharmaceutical companies warrants the highest level of responsibility on the part of those people and organizations. I can't believe the disregard for human life that lies at the heart of such a tragedy. And I can't believe how long it went on while people denied what was happening. So, so sad. )

Hi pris,

I do understand the forces behind psychatry's search for the magic bullet. And I also understand why people want to believe it's possible to find a chemical cure for their ills. However, if all of these people were forced to experience the hell of a bad withdrawal from an SSRI or benzo, they'd have a completely different attitude. We all need to be much, much more skeptical about medications and their supposed safety.

 

(As an aside, I just finished watching a documentary on thalidomide survivors and feel quite sickened by the actions of the pharmaceutical company responsible. The trust that the public places in their doctors, public health departments, drug regulators and pharmaceutical companies warrants the highest level of responsibility on the part of those people and organizations. I can't believe the disregard for human life that lies at the heart of such a tragedy. And I can't believe how long it went on while people denied what was happening. So, so sad. )

Well said, Lap!  I agree, it's beyond appalling and I truly do not know how these people can sleep at night.  It really does take a "special"  type of personality to be able to conduct oneself in this manner knowingly and willingly and for years and years.  Just awful beyond words.

Hi pris,

I do understand the forces behind psychatry's search for the magic bullet. And I also understand why people want to believe it's possible to find a chemical cure for their ills. However, if all of these people were forced to experience the hell of a bad withdrawal from an SSRI or benzo, they'd have a completely different attitude. We all need to be much, much more skeptical about medications and their supposed safety.

 

(As an aside, I just finished watching a documentary on thalidomide survivors and feel quite sickened by the actions of the pharmaceutical company responsible. The trust that the public places in their doctors, public health departments, drug regulators and pharmaceutical companies warrants the highest level of responsibility on the part of those people and organizations. I can't believe the disregard for human life that lies at the heart of such a tragedy. And I can't believe how long it went on while people denied what was happening. So, so sad. )

Absolutely, Lapis. I agree whole heartedly with you. I would have the top executives of the manufacturers of benzos and antidepressants consume some of their products for a while and then have them taper and see how they get on. Come to think of it there might be the odd psychiatrist I would include in that number.  Was it Heather Ashton or Malcolm Lader that likened the benzodiazepine scandal with thalidomide, I can't remember now? As far as I understand thalidomide hasn't gone away it was reapproved by WHO in 1985.

I try very hard to tell people that antidepressants aren't risk free but there is this perception that somehow they don't pose the same problems as benzos. They have done an excellent PR job convincing the public that they have a serotonin imbalance. Funny how psychiatry is beginning to row back on this idea. I thought you should know I made use of your info about protracted antidepressant withdrawal. The Guardian newspaper had an article, "How long should you stay on antidepressants?", with the claim that wd symptoms "can last two months". It was very satisfying to tell them otherwise. Thanks again Lapis! 

You know, pris, as I continue to check PubMed for updates on various topics, including benzodiazepines and SSRIs, I see that they're still testing SSRIs on mice and rats. They still know so little about how the drugs work and about their long-term effects. We -- those of us who took them -- are like mice and rats. We are living the experiment. How long do their effects last? Possibly a very long time.

I don't know about comparing this with the thalidomide disaster -- I just....Oh my goodness, I just find what happened to be beyond comprehension. One of the company execs was a Nazi, and he made tons and tons and tons of money from thalidomide. People died. People were completely crippled. Their families were devastated. They were institutionalized, forgotten, left to die....really horrible stuff.  And yes, they use thalidomide for leprosy in some countries, but there are also more thalidomide babies being born in those countries so women must be taking it while pregnant. Even after everything that has happened.

I'm glad you passed along some SSRI facts to The Guardian. These papers should be doing their research and getting the word out there. That's their role. Over here, the big discussion is opioids -- licit and illicit. They're killing people too, and the numbers are alarming. More prescription-induced disasters!

I saw that documentary too Lapis.  It is tragic and criminal what happened and shameful that the poor victims without medical records, who's mothers' were given samples, are still not acknowledged by our own government despite it being clear what was done to them.

In the 1950's, not 10 blocks from here, my Mom, pregnant, stepped away from work, went across the street to her doctor and received "samples" for nausea.  Nine months later she was born but thankfully only lived a couple hours due to birth defects.  Mom realized years later she had been given thalidomide.  It was devastating for my folks.  They never talked about it.  I was born more than a decade later.  I think I only heard the full story recently.  Had I understood earlier, I still don't think it would have been enough to make me wary of doctors.  Mom, in her late 80's now, has never taken any pills since, not even ibuprofen and she's the healthiest person I, she or her friends know.  I believe it's because she takes nothing.  Can't believe this happened twice in my family.  No more generations after this one, so for sure, this won't happen again.

I was born in the 1950s benzhno, it could have happened to me if my mother had gone to her doctor for nausea in pregnancy. I have a friend who lost a child to cancer, it's not something you ever get over. The idea that people made money out of promoting this drug to pregnant women sticks in my throat. I'm so sorry benzhno, you lost a sister who was never given the chance to thrive. You must wonder about the what ifs, what would she have done with her life if she had lived and been well.

I worry about the long term consequences of taking antidepressants for the length of time that I did. Apart from feeling sorry for the lab rats this human feels plain scared. I had a very exasperating talk with my GP today. Nice guy but he doesn't get that antidepressants or even benzos have risks. Yes he acknowledges that Ativan and Seroxat have withdrawal issues and he wouldn't prescribe them but other psychiatric drugs well they have to be weighed up in terms of benefits versus risks. You cannot deny someone who is suffering severe depression a pill that could help alleviate their depression. He even mentioned the serotonin boosting properties of SSRIs. Exasperation!! I did my best to challenge this but I think that I may have been having a conversation with myself. I'm going to have to present him with further evidence but methinks this may be a waste of time. Very fed up tonight.

I wish I could reach out and hug you gals! There's so much in what you both wrote here that I feel like jumping through this computer screen to get to the other side (of Canada and of the Atlantic, respectively!). benzohno, your story has me welling up. I'm so sorry about what your family went through -- your mom, in particular. But I'm glad you got to see the documentary too (on CBC's Documentary Channel and archived online, right?). It must have been quite meaningful for you. It was so well made and so compelling. As I started to watch it, I wondered if I could handle it, but I just had to know the rest of the story once I started watching. There were wonderful, positive, uplifting stories mixed in with the horrors, but I can't shake the mentions of the Holocaust and the greed of the Nazi doctor and his colleagues who covered everything up. Such brutality!

pris, good for you for having that difficult discussion with your doctor! You never know what effect it might have had. Was it a mutually respectful conversation? I hope so. You're clearly an intelligent woman, and I hope you were treated as such. I know you're scared. I'm scared too. It would be really, REALLY nice to hear "You're going to be okay" from someone in a position to say that with authority. In the absence of that, we have to reassure each other and look for others who have come out the other side.

Take care, Everyone! Thanks so much for your thoughtful and heartfelt input. That documentary was tough to watch -- especially alone -- and it made me so angry about pharmaceutical companies whose leaders care only about the almighty dollar (or deutschmark, as the case may be). We keep seeing disgusting examples of the same type of behaviour with benzodiazepines, antidepressants and opioids (among others, I'm sure).

It’s true pris, I do think about her.  I’ve always known her name and that made her feel more real to me.  This could so easily have happened to any of our mothers.  Well, it probably did.

Good job what you did today, working on your doctor.  And it is WORK.  It’s all we can do, is try to educate others and then gather our strength and try some more.  I know how beyond frustrating it is when you feel like you’re beating your head against the wall, but little by little (attrition) you never know what might be getting through, what difference it’s making, at least for someone else in the future, but better yet for you in terms of having a completely understanding doctor on the same page as you.  Hopefully you weren’t the only one that heard yourself talking.

Count me in guys- scared here too.  I was also on antidepressants for a long time, every one of the SSRI’s, so I very much understand your fear of harm these may have caused us.  With benzos, others have healed before us, so hoping same goes for the AD's.  Sure would be nice to have reassurance from an "expert".  I guess we're really on the forefront of this.

Lapis, funny, this wasn't the documentary I watched!  I looked up this one you saw and it looks very good.  Now I can't find the one I saw.  It was also on CBC TV about 10 days ago.  If I find it I'll let you know.  The one I saw was more about lack of government compensation for victims that have no proof of what was done to them because their mother's were given samples that weren't documented in the charts. Now they're retirement age and need help.  They (25 Canadian victims) are only asking for $125,000.00 each, which would make a huge difference to their future in terms of staying independent.  I didn't know about this Nazi connection.  Angry already.    I 'll watch this one soon, when I can handle it.

Hugs to both of you.

Can't seem to find the documentary I watched, but here's the CBC news story which pretty much covers it:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/gopublic/i-can-t-go-down-without-a-fight-b-c-woman-denied-recognition-as-thalidomide-survivor-1.3816378

benzohno, please do watch the documentary! It was so moving, and I think it will have even deeper meaning for you because of your family's experience. There are so many stories of courage and achievement on the part of those affected (children and their families), and those are the stories I want to keep close to my heart. It was also important for me to learn the truth about what happened and why, and I think the best defense against such horrors happening again is to be informed. It's the same for the benzo and SSRI experience. Knowledge is power!

Hugs coming right back atcha! 

Thanks Lapis and benzohno, mutual group hug. You seem like pretty wonderful people and it is really great to talk about my fears and be understood. I can't say I feel too sharp after my meeting with the GP, my brain lets me down and I forget things. My doctor was respectful enough but it suddenly begun to dawn on me about half way through our conversation that he wasn't accepting the withdrawal story so much as he thought I was suffering anxiety related issues. I had to point out that I hadn't suffered from tinnitus prior to coming off psych drugs. He even asked if I wanted to see a psychiatrist or consider trying a different drug treatment. To hell with that!! I suppose I'll be marked down in the "bloody difficult patient" category.

If there is any justice in this world benzohno and I'm not sure that there is but your mother should be compensated for the terrible emotional pain that your family have had to endure. I know no amount of money will erase the grief but there has to be some kind of acknowledgement of the harm that was done to you. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Take care both of you.     

It's funny....I was talking to someone about some of the language differences between the UK and Canada, and I forgot to mention the "bloody" thing! We just don't use it so much here, but it does add an element of....um.....intensity to the conversation. In Canadian lingo, I'd mark you down as a "pretty darn nice" person! I'll have a chat with your doctor to straighten him out on that one. He'd need to change the notes, of course. 

Anyway, I do hope he's on your side. It's your choice whether you see another psychiatrist or try another med (I think I know where you stand on those things), but perhaps he felt he needed to offer you something. I'd put it under the category of "doing his best to help you". I think most GPs have limited tools when it comes to how we're feeling. Let's see, there are pills, and psychiatrists, and......um......well, that might be it! I guess the polite response would be "No, thank you," even though you might be thinking something more "bloody" unpleasant!

Ah, look what I just found! There's a documentary about the documentary filmmaker who made the thalidomide documentary ("No Limits")! Here's an article from the Globe and Mail, with references to "No Limits" and the Nazi connection. I'll definitely watch this other film. So interesting!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/film/john-zaritsky-front-and-centre-as-subject-of-newdocumentary/article33621218/ 

And for anyone who wants to watch either "No Limits" or "Zaritsky on TV", here's the CBC link. I'm not sure if it can be seen outside of Canada. Probably not. But perhaps these films can be seen through international distribution.

http://watch.cbc.ca/documentaries/ 

pris, last time I saw my GP, she suggested I might consider an antidepressant after I spent two years tapering off one, then she turned her back on me when I insisted OCD symptoms were from benzo withdrawal.  Like you, I have a very hard time accepting how doctors think.  I don't know how Lapis does it, but she has a very rational take that I wish I had.  Just the thought of being unable to refrain from trying to further educate my doctor and how that might go, fills me with anger and dread.  That keeps me from seeing her and the fact that I have zero trust in doctors now, despite the fact that she does not prescribe benzos.  She just knew little to nothing about withdrawal.  I'll see her if I am bleeding, feel I'm dying or when I'm better.

Of all people, you doctor would have been smart to listen to you.  I read with great respect your and Fiona's posts to TravisP- bookmarked it actually.  You truly have a way with words.  And kudos to you for persevering with your doctor.  I also kick myself,  thinking, "If only I'd said this or that, then they would have understood."  Not sure it's true.  And to quote Lapis, you are a "pretty darn nice person" to boot.  He ought to have bloody listened.

Thank you pris, yes my Mom should have been compensated a long time ago.  Now, she's okay.  I'm sure it never even occurred to her.  And medical records are long gone.  Though there is I think some pain when we talk about it, it feels to me like what happened is long passed for her.  She has an amazing way of looking forward and it is a comfort to know she believes increasingly that we will all be reunited.

Thanks for the info Lapis!!  I read Zaritsky is an Academy Award winning documentary filmmaker.

Lapis and benzohno,

You ladies are too kind, such nice compliments thank you. I'll have to watch out that I don't get a swollen head. 

Talking to our medics about mental health is tricky. A doctor doesn't always do you any favours when he/she tells you that you have a depressive illness. In my humble opinion a psychiatric diagnosis limits the conversation. People often say they feel relieved to know that someone ( a doctor/psychiatrist) has been able to pinpoint what's wrong with them - it's usually called life! In my case a divorce and low confidence. Once tagged as mentally ill it's very hard to be seen as anything else. Drugs get promoted as a cure all for conditions as diverse as the menopause to social anxiety. I watched a recent BBC programme about hearing voices. What stood out for me was that every person diagnosed with schizophrenia in this documentary had experienced childhood trauma, something Dr Peter Breggin has talked about for a long time. And yet at the beginning the emphasis was about dopamine levels. It was great however to see people coming to terms with schizophrenia without using drugs. I've read that antidepressant prescriptions are highest in areas of social deprivation and if you look into the figures there is a definite imbalance in term of gender - more women are prescribed ADs and my GP confirmed last night that more ladies of a certain age were (past tense?) prescribed benzos for anxiety. We know women readily talk about their emotional problems but for me human distress isn't an illness. Even genetics doesn't quite provide the answers. As for thalidomide I'm not confident that such a medical disaster couldn't happen on that scale again despite the supposed safeguards. Cheery thought to end with!

Meanwhile I needed a  after my encounter with my GP last night. I just had make use of this emoji!!

If you're interested, here is the info about the Nazi doctor who was behind Thalidomide:

http://thalidomidestory.com/story/other-notables/historical-figures/heinrich-muckter/ 

Unsure about the validity of this claim but Thalidomide may have been tested on concentration camp inmates prior to its use in the 1950s and 60s:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1138955/Nazis-developed-Thalidomide-tested-concentration-camp-prisoners-author-claims.html

Me too. It turns out that my mom was given samples of Thalidomide, which she took when she was pregnant with my brother in the early 1960s. He was fine, though. A lucky escape. Apparently, she didn't take too much.

I sent her the info about Heinrich Muckter, though, and she was just as gobsmacked as I was. Um....Health Canada? Where were they? It's hard to feel protected by our federal drug regulators when you see what has happened with Thalidomide, benzodiazepines, opioids, antidepressants, antipsychotics, etc.

Oh Lapis, your Mom too!?  Wow.  I was shocked to see it was you who wrote that.  You must have been shocked to just find this out.  Yes, a very lucky escape that was. 

My feelings exactly in regards to "Health" Canada.  What a joke.  We are not and never have been protected by our government.  $$$ is the root of all evil and because of it, corruption is rampant.  My Mom's on an Alaskan cruise right now with her girlfriend, but I'll tell her what I've learned on her return.  I still haven't watched the documentary, but will.

Yes, benzohno, I was quite shocked. She said she got sample packs from her doctor, which is exactly the way the company was marketing the stuff all over the world. Lots of samples, which led to lots of sales. It seemed to work very well, and everyone got quite rich while babies were miscarried or born deformed. It made my stomach churn to think my mom had taken that garbage, but I'm grateful that my brother was born healthy.

I'm still reflecting on all of it, benzohno. The documentary really touched me with all of its stories of triumph and achievement. I also watched the story about the director, John Zaritsky. He was absolutely passionate about getting the word out regarding Thalidomide, and, indeed, it was a powerful piece of work. I keep thinking about Holly Hardman and her in-progress benzo film, "As Prescribed". It could be a similarly powerful film when it comes out.