Puzzling Phenomenon--- Anyone Else?---Any Theories?

Am constantly vacillating between whether or not my main lingering symptoms are benzo induced or entirely something else.  It's not cut and dried for me due to my history and non-recollection of crucial details, e.g. Haphazard use, timelines/onset, uniqueness of symptom/s, etc.  So there's a strong case to be built either way, and am wondering if this strange phenomenon that I experience might hold a bit of a clue. 

 

My two relentless symptoms - 24/7:

• Severe upper body muscle tension/pain.
  
• Pulsating rocky boat.  Visible and palpable.
   
  

Above two symptoms are interconnected, the less tense my muscles, the less turbulent the rocky boat ride, for instance.  So my rocky boat is likely a direct side-effect of the muscle issue.

 

The Phenomenon: 

 

That short "twilight" phase when transitioning from wakefulness to sleep (aka Stage 1 of the sleep cycle, hypnagogia, etc.).  And then again during those first few seconds when just waking up.  Well, during these brief periods, all my muscles relax fully and completely.  I literally feel my neck/head/cheeks/etc. slump into the pillow.  *And* my accompanying rocky boat disappears as well.  Vanished.  A few short seconds (5-10 max) of pure bliss, heaven!  Lying in a perfectly normal, relaxed, peaceful and still body.  And then it starts right up again, I feel the vise start crushing my head tighter and tighter, facial muscles harden, etc., and so the rocky boat immediately starts chugging again, legs numb/tingling, no sensation of the surface under me, etc. etc.  Madness!

 

So that's it.  There are a small handful of BBs I've found so far who experience the same thing.  Apparently it's the case with Parkinson's patients as well.  Would love to try and make some kind of sense of it. 

 

Anyone else notice this?  Does it happen to you too?  For which symptoms?  Any other "muscle" people and/or rocky boaters experience this?  Maybe it happens to you but you haven't been aware of it or paid attention, considering most (normal) people typically just transition between wakefulness-sleep-wakefulness naturally and peacefully.  Maybe we might get some insight perhaps from those with medical/science backgrounds.  Or anyone who's done some sleep research?  Dunno.  Anyone have any thoughts or theories to toss around? 

 

 

Hi abcd,

 

I get that calm twilight phase too when waking up in the morning.  But then can get GI symptoms and then anxiety, panic, racing thoughts/images start in.  Sometimes the muscle tension, buzzing, burning sensations will start, too or won't get them till later.  Sometimes I get a minute or two of realizing that blissful feeling before symptoms hitting.  Other times, I wake up from a sound sleep, in a state of panic and pain.  Very hit or miss for me...ugh!

 

I wonder if benzos messed up how we go through these falling asleep and waking up phases?

I know during REM sleep your body is paralyzed. It's so because if you have a very vivid dream and someone in that dream is causing major problems it prevents him from waking up and taking action. But that is Off Topic, no? Just cocktail party info.

I feel deeply rested in the morning, between sleeping and waking. It feels very good, very right, the way I used to feel before benzos. Then there's the moment when I shift to full wakefulness, and I feel my body revving inside. It's like a motor that's been shut off and abruptly starts up again. Usually at that point I don't even want to get up and face the day because I know that revving will be with me the whole day.

 

I don't know if that's what you're talking about exactly, but that's the way I feel every morning.

just posted on Scooby's head pressure thread that i have this same exact thing in the "twilight" phase. i am always trying to get into that phase. i feel like it's a healing thing to get down that deep into theta anyway so i do it as much as possible. i try to train my brain to get into this state but i don't understand this Phenomenon?

Like this?

 

https://youtu.be/IqhlQfXUk7w

 

 

Hi Folks, thanks for the input.

 

LF, you gave me an idea to use a video to illustrate exactly what I'm referring to regarding that "twilight" phase. 

 

Here.  See how this guy's nodding off.  He's constantly going in and out of that "twilight" zone where his neck muscles automatically relax and fall  (autonomic nervous system?).  It wakes him up briefly, and then he nods off again.  While in this phase, if one pays attention, you might notice that you're already even dreaming.  It's very easy to wake up out of this phase, the slightest sound can do it, as the sleep is very light. 

 

 

So this is how it plays out for everyone, right?  The difference in my case, is that my head/face/neck is already resting on my pillow, the normal person would just transition into deep sleep peacefully.  However, because my muscles are in this constant state of contraction, I can awaken just by feeling them soften and collapse into the pillow.  And my whole body, is quiet, calm and peaceful, and no pulsating crap.  (Muscles squeezing arteries?)

 

It's a few *seconds* phase.  Very, very brief.

 

Dunno if I'm making myself any clearer?  Guess just wondering is this all neurological or whether there could be a physiological component, e.g. a tiny tumor or some other musculoskeletal "thingy" which could cause this craziness. 

Being an avid walker in the past, I was in a bit of a surprise, when my walk turned into a shuffle, and I started losing energy for no apparent reason. Then, I realized it was the ativan, and, all of a sudden, there's that Monty Python sketch in my mind....

 

I've experienced something like this in my life when I was a kid end then as a grownup, usually if I tried to nod off a little in the afternoon when too tired. Sometime, I'd have hard time taking a nap, and even when I did, I'd often wake up from that nap frightened. I have no idea. My regular sleep used to actually be very sound and restful, so I just crossed off daytime napping off of my repertoire.

 

Before ativan, I also used to toss and turn a ton, rearrange pillows and have a lot of restless energy before falling asleep, but then I'd sleep like a baby once I'd fall asleep. Hence, I developed a slight fear of being able to fall asleep. It was mild, but noticeable.

 

But in your case, abcd, since you don't seem to fit into a typical anxiety-benzo-anxiety worrywart mold, it could be some sort of a feedback loop between neurological symptoms still slightly affecting some phases of sleep, which probably could affect the neurological symptoms. I'm not saying all is benzo induced, but benzos may have amplify some slight patterns that were there before, but not as noticeable. It's hard to say, really.....

 

Ever had your inner ears checked, or anything of that sort? Just wondering...

 

 

Dang, I think maybe my posts have been too garrulous, so let me try again simple and to the point. 

 

Question:

During your *LIGHTEST* sleep, i.e. that very early beginning stage, just as you're starting to nod off  --  AND/OR -- Upon waking up, barely awake yet. 

Has anyone noticed during those briefest of moments that any or all of their **PHYSICAL** symptoms have completely disappeared?

 

If so, I'd be curious to know the nature of your symptoms, please specify. 

 

And if anyone wants to throw down some thoughts about why this may happen, would be interested to hear them too.

 

Thanks.   

Maybe dehydratation of your fascia, our sensory nerves lay in the connective tissue, and so if the connective tissue dries out our nerves go haywire.

I'm looking into MELT method were you can rehydrate it yourself and it connects all my sx.

Her book is genius. it explains clearly how our autonomic nerve system works and all the connections to stress. I had some body work that does the same and it works for me.

I also have that weird pulsating thing and boaty feeling (she explains it)

Our connective tissue cares for our balance in combination with the nervous system and so they are interconnected. I'm sorry i'm super enthousiastic about this and can't wait to

go back to my therapist for a second session. I'm planning on learning the MELT method too because then you can treat yourself and you don't need a body worker.

During your *LIGHTEST* sleep, i.e. that very early beginning stage, just as you're starting to nod off  -  AND/OR - Upon waking up, barely awake yet. 

Has anyone noticed during those brief moments that any or all of their physical symptoms have completely disappeared?

 

They don't for me. I still feel some residual anxiety and a bit of diffuse nerve pain all over, as well as some muscle and joint discomfort. But it doesn't prevent me from sleeping. I guess, I've gotten accustomed to it.

Oh and also there are three types of autonomic nervous system:

 

sympathic (stress)

parasympathic (restore)

enteric (gut)

 

When you sleep you go into parasympathic , but if you are dehydrated it can't do its job really well and you wake up. It needs the hydratation to work efficiently.

Has anyone noticed during those brief moments that any or all of their physical symptoms have completely disappeared?

 

If so, I'd be curious to know the nature of your symptoms, please specify.

 

 

yes! but the head symptoms are still always with that pulling/vibration/pressure -- it just subsides a little to where i am able to relax a bit. i couldn't have that before and i think started around the 48th month mark. the full body squeezing/neuropathy is still there but there are some things that are different/better in that state. sometimes i can get into such a relaxed state before getting up for the day where i feel like i could be in a window all day but the minute i get up do the dishes and eat breaky, it all goes away and i am in torment again.

 

i am completely frightened that these head symptoms are permanent. they never stop. and i can't live like this anymore. i want a life back!

Hey, Corsair, yes this is the direction I'm trying to go with it.  Wasn't able to have this convo with any Docs and have only found it to occur with Parkinsons patients, whereby their tremors can subside during sleep, but no real theories out there about that either.  (And it also doesn't help having only high school biology, and even then I stood outside the classroom when they dissected the frogs.    )

 

Brain vs. spinal cord ---  Neurologial vs. mechanical ---  Heart/Arteries/Circulation --- Etc.

 

The uniqueness of my particular symptoms, they're enmeshed, "SX-1" (muscle contraction) appearing to be the root cause of the secondary symptom "SX-2" (body/artery pulsation).  They don't appear to be two stand-alone symptoms, ya know?  Wondering the root of SX-1.  My neck?  Proprioception?

 

And even if figuring out the cause is not possible, just to know what's physically happening to cause such heart pounding and turbulent blood flow. 

 

Why can't something so physical be imaged?  Not via doppler, ultrasound, CT or even fMRI.  And yet it can be seen and felt by others.  Head scratching stuff driving me insane.

 

Hey, thanks for the tip about the MELT Method, going to Google.  She actually discusses the pulsating and boaty thing.  No way?  Please keep us posted, amazing that you're already responding to it, fingers crossed for you!  Thanks again, Corsair.

 

Thanks, Pretty and LF.    Hope you're both in dreamland as I'm typing this. 

Corsair12,

 

Any idea how you´d measure/sense dehydration if the drug (clonazepam) impairs your sense of thirst ?

 

!

 

During your *LIGHTEST* sleep, i.e. that very early beginning stage, just as you're starting to nod off  --  AND/OR -- Upon waking up, barely awake yet. 

Has anyone noticed during those briefest of moments that any or all of their **PHYSICAL** symptoms have completely disappeared?[/b]

 

So this is how it plays out for everyone, right?  The difference in my case, is that my head/face/neck is already resting on my pillow, the normal person would just transition into deep sleep peacefully.  However, because my muscles are in this constant state of contraction, I can awaken just by feeling them soften and collapse into the pillow.  And my whole body, is quiet, calm and peaceful, and no pulsating crap.  (Muscles squeezing arteries?)

 

OK, I think I understand your question now... I erased my post yesterday evening because I ended up confused about what you were asking, although that probably had more to due with my compromised brain than with your original post (I have much worse issues with thinking and writing after 3 PM).

 

Anyway, I find that my "falling asleep stage" will very often cause all of my symptoms to ramp up, including the physical ones such as muscle tightness and pain. It's almost as if that floaty, drifting, calm relaxation response triggers some kind of "danger alert" in my nervous system, and both my body and brain go haywire. Oddly enough, this is also the only time that I've experienced the "rocky boat" sensation as well. In the earlier years off I would actually feel completely paralyzed when I first woke up, with all my muscles much tighter and more locked than usual, and I'd have to wait for it to subside before I could speak or move at all. That blissful state of relaxation and comfortable "ahhhhh"-ness right before falling asleep or waking up has been elusive to me for close to 4 years now... I think I've woken up or fallen asleep in a state of comfort only a handful of times.

 

In my case, I assume it has something to do with the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system, as well as with cortisol. I found this when I was trying to figure out why my body's relaxation / sleep response was triggering such severe symptoms for me:

 

“Sleep disorders are very, very common in withdrawal syndrome. Excessive alerting activity and inappropriately raised cortisol at night causes the awful withdrawal insomnia. The brain wants to keep us alert to respond to (non-existent) threats, and wakes us up when we become too inattentive. Tragically, the alerting response is triggered by the relaxation of sleep. This is not a circadian rhythm disorder. It is entirely iatrogenic. Too strong an intervention, even deep relaxation, will cause the meta-homeostasis to increase alerting activity. The paradoxical nature of the condition is particularly hard to understand.”

 

From: https://beyondmeds.com/2011/07/28/ssriprotractedwithdrawal/

 

Does this fit your experience? In any case, I might try exploring other ways of triggering your relaxation response in the daytime (through muscle relaxers of various sorts, massage, body scan meditations, naps, etc) to see if you can elicit the same symptom relief... maybe that will help you to figure this out better.

 

xo

 

Hey abcd,

 

I noticed in your original sig:

 

20yrs ago-Rx Clonazepam for lightheadedness WTF?!

 

As much as WTF? made me laugh a bit, maybe the WTF?! part was legitimate. Maybe there was some small issue you had before all this that has somehow amplified through this. Maybe whatever was ailing you at the time has some relevance to what you are dealing now. Allergies? Muscle tension leading to lightheadedness? Sleep disorder leading to lightheadedness? Food allergies? There used to be a person on this forum who was Rx'd K for a sleep disorder that involved a lot of involuntary movements (not a simple toss & turn stuff, but not epilepsy, either).

 

To be clear, there's no sleep disorder involved.  It's the very opposite, which makes it so puzzling, and why I'm thinking there may be a clue to be found here. 

 

a)  How/why does my brain/body do exactly what it's meant to do (relax muscles) during sleep but constrict them so severely when awake?

b)  When my muscles are fully relaxed, why does my pulsating rocky boat disappear 100% too?

 

Hmmm?  Those are the questions.  Grasping at straws any which way.  Clueless.

 

---

 

Mutuu, wow, your situation sounds the complete opposite of mine, sounds horrible, I'm so sorry. 

"exploring other ways of triggering your relaxation response in the daytime"  And therein lies the problem, that would be like winning the lottery!

 

LF, nope, the lightheaded stuff is an entirely separate animal.  Never did find any answers for that, btw, have seen it referred to as "Supermarket Syndrome"    Best guess is something to do with fluorescent lighting, I just learned to accept/deal with it, much bigger fish to fry, lol.

 

Oh, I see. My reading comprehension skills seem to be worse than usual lately... I definitely thought you weren't sleeping because of this.

 

If sleep is the only time you can relax your muscles, then I'm guessing your answer lies there. What specific and unique actions happen in our bodes and brains as we fall asleep and wake up?

 

Has this symptom improved for you at all? I hope so. My severe, 24/7 muscle tightness is gone thankfully, but it comes back in waves and whenever I do "too much" on my feet, although it's not as bad as before. My muscles are never fully relaxed though, and it took one fairly recent night-time awakening to figure that out. For whatever reason, I woke up and my entire body just felt relaxed and comfortable, and then I realized that I hadn't felt that sensation in years. It was amazing, and I drifted back off to sleep just like a regular person. Sometimes I wonder if some of us have simply acclimated to our symptoms, so much so that we don't even recognize what "normal" is supposed to feel like anymore. My muscles are also all rock hard, like they were in my pre-benzo withdrawal athletic days - except that I've been bedridden for close to 4 years now.

 

It's a puzzle for sure, and I hope we're able to figure it out at some point....

 

a)  How/why does my brain/body do exactly what it's meant to do (relax muscles) during sleep but constrict them so severely when awake?

 

 

abcd,

 

i've had several dreams the last 6 months or so where i feel close to normal and pretty much well. not all the way but close. do you get this? i hope it's a good sign but maybe it's a long the lines of what you're talking about?

Could be something else and the W/D is making it worse.

Oh, I see. My reading comprehension skills seem to be worse than usual lately... I definitely thought you weren't sleeping because of this.

 

If sleep is the only time you can relax your muscles, then I'm guessing your answer lies there. What specific and unique actions happen in our bodes and brains as we fall asleep and wake up?

 

Nah, Mutuu, I was being too wordy, nothing wrong with your comprehension skills at all. 

 

Yes, my sleep has been horribly affected but only because of these two symptoms, I'm uncomfortable in every position, making it terribly difficult to relax and fall asleep.  At one time I was managing pretty well with meditation/visualization techniques, but once that inner body pulsating reared its ugly head, it all started going south.  It's very, very hard to meditate now, just too much going on 24/7, zapping all my concentration.  It's a shame, I miss it so much.

 

And yes, something tells me my best clue lies there, am trying to follow breadcrumbs.

 

 

Has this symptom improved for you at all? I hope so. My severe, 24/7 muscle tightness is gone thankfully, but it comes back in waves and whenever I do "too much" on my feet, although it's not as bad as before. My muscles are never fully relaxed though, and it took one fairly recent night-time awakening to figure that out. For whatever reason, I woke up and my entire body just felt relaxed and comfortable, and then I realized that I hadn't felt that sensation in years. It was amazing, and I drifted back off to sleep just like a regular person.

 

No improvement my end, but very encouraging to hear about yours, Mutuu.    That night-time awakening of yours sounds like my "twilight" experiences, those few short seconds of sheer heavenly bliss when I'm back in a perfectly "normal" body, even the tingling in my legs/feet disappears.  Additionally, my muscles also loosen up a tad in the very late evenings (and hence the pulsating is slightly less turbulent), which again would seem to point to a perfectly normal biological clock and circadian rhythm.

 

 

 

Sometimes I wonder if some of us have simply acclimated to our symptoms, so much so that we don't even recognize what "normal" is supposed to feel like anymore. My muscles are also all rock hard, like they were in my pre-benzo withdrawal athletic days - except that I've been bedridden for close to 4 years now.

 

It's a puzzle for sure, and I hope we're able to figure it out at some point....

 

It's certainly a sad possibility in some cases, isn't it?   Guess it depends also on the severity of the individual symptoms.  Being (semi) pain-free, to my mind, is a basic human need, much like oxygen/food/water/shelter.  Ugh!

 

A puzzle for sure, so very perplexing, I so wish I could figure it out.  Even if I can never find the true root cause, I just have this ridiculous *need* to know WHAT that pulsating sensation is.  How is it not possible to image something so visible and so palpable?  Beats me!  In a past life I was "connected", a snap of the fingers and I could've had access to as many specialists and tests as I wanted.  Not so now when I really need it.  And that's just life, as they say.   

 

Hugs, my friend, thanks for the input, I always look forward to hearing your thoughts.

a)  How/why does my brain/body do exactly what it's meant to do (relax muscles) during sleep but constrict them so severely when awake?

 

 

abcd,

 

i've had several dreams the last 6 months or so where i feel close to normal and pretty much well. not all the way but close. do you get this? i hope it's a good sign but maybe it's a long the lines of what you're talking about?

 

Hey Pretty.  My dreams haven't been affected at all, I've always been a dreamer.    This does sound like an amazingly positive sign for you, doesn't it?  I find the trick to remembering my dreams is to take the time to quietly ponder them the first five minutes or so after awaking, otherwise poof they're gone.

 

I don't think it's along the lines of my dilemma though.  I'm trying to fathom why my body (neurological?) decides to malfunction only when I'm awake, and 24/7 freaking non-stop at that.  Other aches and pains or ailments, such as arthritis or colitis, for instance, don't simply vanish like that, 100% fully and completely and every single time without fail during sleep and the twilight zone.

 

 

;D

 

 

 

Could be something else and the W/D is making it worse.

 

Yes, I've never ever been able to reach peace of mind that it's W/D related.  My withdrawal symptoms were pretty classic and easy to recognize.  This stuff, though, as far as I'm concerned, could just as easily have absolutely ZERO to do with benzos.  Such a mystery, such a mindf**k. 

 

I also often explain it in detail in posts here, hoping Google might send someone to me with answers.

 

Maybe dehydratation of your fascia, our sensory nerves lay in the connective tissue, and so if the connective tissue dries out our nerves go haywire.

I'm looking into MELT method were you can rehydrate it yourself and it connects all my sx.

Her book is genius. it explains clearly how our autonomic nerve system works and all the connections to stress. I had some body work that does the same and it works for me.

I also have that weird pulsating thing and boaty feeling (she explains it)

Our connective tissue cares for our balance in combination with the nervous system and so they are interconnected. I'm sorry i'm super enthousiastic about this and can't wait to

go back to my therapist for a second session. I'm planning on learning the MELT method too because then you can treat yourself and you don't need a body worker.

 

Thanks for bringing MELT to attention, I will look into it.  Funny thing about connective tissue.  Last month I had an ASYRA test, which tests the bioelectric feedback of your organs.  It said I had the stressed systems of hypothalamus, pituitary, sphenoid & ethmoid sinus (mucosa lined airspaces in face and skull) and connective tissue.  The last two fit right in this.  (The hypothalamus and pituitary is another subject!)  Not to hijack your thread abcd, just an observation that makes sence in the scheme of things.

 

BTW, I just recently started dreaming again, or at least after 3 years I can remember bits and pieces of them, most are uneventful but it is a great feeling to be getting back the "normal" stuff.

 

Sweet pea