DISTURBING INSOMNIA SYMPTOM - DESPERATE for encouragement/advice

Hi all,

 

DESPERATE FOR WORDS OF ADVICE/ENCOURAGEMENT RE LACK OF SLEEP

 

To re-iterate - i have been on Ativan for 10 weeks now (for stress related sleep issues) - 1mg per night, but now down to .25 per night and hope to be off soon. Have been using a little valium in the last week to assist with withdrawals but don't want to stay on that long (and i am not sure if it is helping..). throughout this ordeal i have averaged about 5 to 5.5 hours sleep per night with much variation. Lots of waking during the night and in general poor quality sleep.. i think the meds may have been most helpful in first weeks but after that have become a problem. benzo's are known to produce light sleep.. last night i had about 3.5hours sleep - very depressing..

 

interestingly, i am getting to sleep super quick (which is a positive improvement compared to the start). i have frequent wakings during the night which i don't like (but mostly can get back to sleep quickly).. the biggest issue is waking early in the morning - anywhere from 430 to 530 and then not being able to get back to sleep at all.. What i really hate during this time is that i constantly feel myself dropping off but then a bolt of adrenaline wakes me immediately with rapid breathing/heart rate/fear etc.... this happens constantly!!

 

It's a symptom that The Sleep Book (by Dr Guy Andrews) talk about and hence i will cite how they have described it:

 

page 149 "another distressing symptoms that many clients reports as the fall asleep is a sudden surge of adrenaline through their body that jolts them awake. many describe it as a bolt of lightening that leaves them wired, anxious, hyper-alert and with their heart racing. it is believed to occur because the brain now associates falling asleep with danger and so releases stress hormones to prepare you to stand and fight or run away.... for many clients this is further source of sleep anxiety and therefore self perpetuating.."

 

as for their advice they say "respond to it in a gently playful manner as saying "here is the bolt" and then mindfully return your attention to you bed in order to signal to the brain that no threat exists and it is ok for sleep to emerge"..

 

I have tried many things to get back to sleep at this time but to no avail.... (guided mediation/music, nature sounds, positive affirmations, body scan, mindfulness/acceptance as suggested above.. a little more medication, having a "whatever i don't give a F attitude", i even crawled into my husband's side of the bed when he got up this morning as a way of feeling more secure/safe..) - but nothing seems to work..

 

i know that this symptoms should pass in time and that i simply need to accept the lack of sleep but it's just soo hard at times...

 

My questions to you guys are:

 

Have you experienced this specific symptom - ie about to fall asleep only to wake in fright? and if so how have you dealt with it? any tips for dealing with that specific symptom would be great. please only encouraging responses..

 

luv and hugs from down under XOX

 

Believe it or not, that is actually a very common symptom! Super freaky and annoying though. The body starts producing more cortisol in the morning, and it sounds like you are just ramping up a bit too quickly. Be sure that they blinds are tight and no light is leaking in the windows. If you can't get back to sleep, just get up and get going, rather than lie in bed being miserable.

 

Overall, it sounds like you aren't doing too bad considering where you are at in withdrawals. The little "helper Valium" is a big no no though, that is really going to mess up your taper. The only acceptable "helpers" are ones that don't affect the GABA system at all. But really it is best if you can just keep it clean and taper the Ativan alone.

 

Try to accept that your sleep will not be ideal for a while. Your body has to learn to sleep again on it's own, and that takes time.

HI thanks for the understanding

 

but re the "helper valium" - it is often advised to use a longer acting to come off a shorter acting benzo?? i'm confused because i am getting mixed messages.. i intend to come off the valium pretty soon also but are you advising i stop taking it immediately? it is only a small dose 1.5mg - the equiv of .15 of an Ativan - is this OK?.. so can u tell me then what can help that doesn't affect GABA?

 

Thanks kindly

 

Lov and hugs from down under

 

P.S. actually not doing well throughout this whole thing, much low mood and anxiety, just recently more intense tinnitus, had to put one cat to sleep 10 days ago, and now our other older cat is very unwell (probs cancer) and will need to go also.. it's been awful

 

You've only been on Ativan for 10 weeks, this is not long term. You should have no problem getting off and getting this behind you very soon! Doing what is called a cross-over to Valium, is a very measured process and absolutely overkill for your situation.

 

Yes, even small amounts of another benzo, or GABA active drug such as Ambien, will definitely mess you up. At the very least they confuse the body, and make it hard to evaluate exactly where you are at. Not really clear about how long you have been on the Valium, but if it is just a few days, yes I would drop it.

 

Unfortunately tinnitus is also a very common symptom. This will fade very quickly once you are off. Please ignore it as best you can. It's totally understandable to be anxious, the benzos don't help that much! Just count the days until you are off and take care of yourself as best you can.

 

From one cat person to another  Give her a little hug for me, my dog won't let me have a cat!

Been on valium for 5 days - so you think i should drop all together?

 

or what if i stop the ativan and remain on the valium for a short time?

 

 

Yes, you are going to have some symptoms, I don't think there is any getting around that. Trying to drag out the taper/add Valium to avoid things like tinnitus or poor sleep is not a great idea. Unless symptoms are unbearable, I would continue to make cuts, with the knowledge that because of your short usage, you can get off, be just fine, and have no protracted withdrawal. The best way out for you is through at this point!

But i have read that by tapering in the longer acting one can avoid a protracted withdrawal.. very confusing..

 

But i will consider your advice XOX

 

Yes i will give Milly a hug for you - she is my darling little angel and i love her so..

 

and perhaps i will consider getting up if i can't sleep early in the morning. generally i lie there and try to get back to sleep which has worked in past but not lately..

 

any other tips would be greatly appreciated as i feel i am not coping well..

 

XOX

 

 

Meowie - can you list the non GABA sleep agents - i think you did this in another post but i cannot find it..

 

Thanks kindly

 

in the meantime gonna ask my GP for melatonin..

 

 

Non GABA oriented sleep drugs include mirtazapine, seroquel, trazadone, amitryptiline, doxepen, and a milder one hydroxyzine. I think I would start with mirtazapine (even though I've never taken that one) it seems to work quite well for a lot of people. Works for most at about 3.75 to 7.5 mg. It does tend to cause weight gain though (many of these drugs do).

 

Melatonin works quite well for many people, you can get that over the counter. Best used at low doses of .5 mg to 1 mg. Be aware that it can go paradoxical for some people as it did for me. It actually made me wired, and gave me a panic attack! (panic attack is not a common reaction!).

Thanks for the info meowie - i think i might try the melatonin first. The others scare me i think as most are anti depressants which i prefer not to take. I do also have zopiclone - used it three times over the last few months - i suppose i can use this from time to time if desperate, mind you doesn't this one work on GABA also?? thanks XOX - i appreciate all your good advice XOX

Oh no--zopiclone does work on the GABA system! not good for those in withdrawal! Any of the so-called z-drugs are not good. (Ambien, Lunesta, Imovane,,etc...)

 

The amounts you would take of the other drugs are small doses, if that is any consolation. Not near the dosage used for antidepressant qualities.

thanks meowie  - your a treasure trove of good knowledge XOX

 

hope you are having a happy new year celeb

Early waking is a sign of the stress hormone Cortisol being released.

 

The same hormone we get hit with when we wake to get us up and out of bed.

 

Early waking is a sign of depression, anxiety and stress

 

Treat your underlying stress and anxiety with meditation and yoga, mindfulness, CBT and your early waking will go away

 

 

Early waking is a sign of the stress hormone Cortisol being released.

 

The same hormone we get hit with when we wake to get us up and out of bed.

 

Early waking is a sign of depression, anxiety and stress

 

Treat your underlying stress and anxiety with meditation and yoga, mindfulness, CBT and your early waking will go away

 

Hi there - thanks yes i know about this.. but i think the meds have also screwed things up - i am trying to withdraw from them and my sleep seems to have deteriorated recently, waking up a lot during the night, only got 3 hours (if that) last night - most depressing...

thanks meowie  - your a treasure trove of good knowledge XOX

 

hope you are having a happy new year celeb

 

Thanks so much 1966!--I am not having a great new year so far--see Happy New Year thread for the story.

Hope yours is better!!

thanks meowie  - your a treasure trove of good knowledge XOX

 

hope you are having a happy new year celeb

 

Thanks so much 1966!--I am not having a great new year so far--see Happy New Year thread for the story.

Hope yours is better!!

 

HI Meowie - yes i saw that and sorry to hear it i did have a good day yesterday, but not today, just 3 hours sleep and feeling a bit miserable/desperate about it.. BTW - do you know how much sleep you average per night??

I had this symptom too to a moderate degree, and it's totally frustrating when you're almost asleep!  I haven't read the book you mentioned, but I think those suggestions are all the good things to do, and sounds like you tried them all.  One that I do that wasn't listed is to start doing the deep belly breathing because that really brings your heart rate down and brings a sense of calm.  This can be done with or without listening to a meditation or music again of course.  Just choose whatever suits you at the time, and it will be different from night to night, but the deep breathing will really help.

 

Another thing that helps me through a lot of these "sudden" symptoms, but can also be helpful for symptoms that linger all day, is to have a mantra that you tell yourself that is positive.  For me, its "that's one more step toward healing", because I see each "event" as my brain trying to figure something out, and I like to think that when something happens, it did just figure something out.  It might not be literally true, but it helps me to think of it that way.  Sort of like when a kid learning to ride a bike falls off - each time they learn how to do it a little better.  It's basically a positive spin on something that's unpleasant, and that reminder to yourself reminds you of why you're doing this withdrawal in the first place.

 

Along those lines, you said sometimes you tell yourself "I don't care what the F*** happens" or something like that.  Now I don't know if that's literally how you're thinking it, but a slight shift in that toward something more positive might help too, only because during the night, I think it's especially important to have thoughts that calm us, rather than anger us, because it will again help lower that heart rate and help us feel more in control.  It does suck, don't get me wrong.  How do you think I ended up finding your post!  Here's a slightly more positive spin on what you can tell yourself after you've almost jumped out of your skin from the bolt of lightening:  "ok, that's so frustrating! But I can handle it, I've been through it before and I will get through it this time.  In fact I've been through much worse.  I will get through the day regardless of my sleep".  Whatever suits you, but that builds up your ability to deal with it. 

 

Last thing, check your supplements.  I've read about and found some were making my physical anxiety symptoms worse - magnesium, chamomile, ashwaganda, L-theanine, tryptophan, even Vit D for some folks. Also foods like chocolate or a lot of sugar in the evening may have an impact.  A lot of my symptoms went away after I discontinued things that might have been making things worse.  Search for your supplements on this website, or google them along with "and benzo withdrawal". 

 

Hope this was helpful.

hi thanks for the very good advice 

 

i am pretty much doing everything you have suggested but it doesn't always work. i also keep telling myself that time heals and to be patient.. interesting what you have said about magnesium, i take this, plus vit B supplement, green tea with theanine, also a multivitamin every other day.. i had a good sleep the night before last, but then last night one of my worst nights ever - maybe one hour sleep, meds not working. it sooo discouraging - just don't know what to do atm

 

I had this symptom too to a moderate degree, and it's totally frustrating when you're almost asleep!  I haven't read the book you mentioned, but I think those suggestions are all the good things to do, and sounds like you tried them all.  One that I do that wasn't listed is to start doing the deep belly breathing because that really brings your heart rate down and brings a sense of calm.  This can be done with or without listening to a meditation or music again of course.  Just choose whatever suits you at the time, and it will be different from night to night, but the deep breathing will really help.

 

Another thing that helps me through a lot of these "sudden" symptoms, but can also be helpful for symptoms that linger all day, is to have a mantra that you tell yourself that is positive.  For me, its "that's one more step toward healing", because I see each "event" as my brain trying to figure something out, and I like to think that when something happens, it did just figure something out.  It might not be literally true, but it helps me to think of it that way.  Sort of like when a kid learning to ride a bike falls off - each time they learn how to do it a little better.  It's basically a positive spin on something that's unpleasant, and that reminder to yourself reminds you of why you're doing this withdrawal in the first place.

 

Along those lines, you said sometimes you tell yourself "I don't care what the F*** happens" or something like that.  Now I don't know if that's literally how you're thinking it, but a slight shift in that toward something more positive might help too, only because during the night, I think it's especially important to have thoughts that calm us, rather than anger us, because it will again help lower that heart rate and help us feel more in control.  It does suck, don't get me wrong.  How do you think I ended up finding your post!  Here's a slightly more positive spin on what you can tell yourself after you've almost jumped out of your skin from the bolt of lightening:  "ok, that's so frustrating! But I can handle it, I've been through it before and I will get through it this time.  In fact I've been through much worse.  I will get through the day regardless of my sleep".  Whatever suits you, but that builds up your ability to deal with it. 

 

Last thing, check your supplements.  I've read about and found some were making my physical anxiety symptoms worse - magnesium, chamomile, ashwaganda, L-theanine, tryptophan, even Vit D for some folks. Also foods like chocolate or a lot of sugar in the evening may have an impact.  A lot of my symptoms went away after I discontinued things that might have been making things worse.  Search for your supplements on this website, or google them along with "and benzo withdrawal". 

 

Hope this was helpful.

Morning 1966 

 

Aww, so sorry you had a bad night last night. You sound just like me in about July last year when I realized that the occasional rescue valium didn't relax me any more. In fact started to have the opposite effect. 

 

My sleep diary has been one of my biggest encouragements, it showed me that it always gets better again eventually. I am still always a quivering mess during the day after a bad night though, and argue with hubby when he tells me this! At the time I just can't believe it. I even wrote myself a note on a 'well' day to read next time I had a bad day, so I couldn't argue with myself.

 

That awful jerking awake is part of the process we have to live through. It has got very infrequent for me now, but if it happens I know that all I can do is try to control my reaction to it. I know you are good at this already. At first, it always turned into an all nighter for me. But after a few months, I am now finding that after a couple of hours I can start to get the odd half hour on 'those' nights. Sometimes I find that quietly getting up and going to the bathroom, torchlight only, 'resets' my calm state, and I can turn off that alert state more easily.

 

I don't react well to being awakened either. I guess the adrenaline surge fires off all the brain receptors which are impossible to control.

 

I still wake early, but have decided to accept that. 4am this morning! It will be great in the summer, depressing in the middle of our winter. In fact, loss of drowsiness in the morning was the first symptom I had of tolerance withdrawal, so maybe it will be the last one to go?

 

When this is all over, I am going to publish my sleep diary on BB to hopefully reassure others in the steps that happen with insomnia through recovery. That's something I would like to have seen myself. I am gradually creeping up to average 5:30 to 6 hrs a night, was 2 -3 at the start.

 

You WILL sleep better again, everbody says so! Wishing you a good night tonight, here are some more sleepy vibes, xx 

 

Ps, do you do any walking during the day? I always try to, not sure yet if it helps the sleep, but worth it for general health.

 

HI Queen - thanks so much for your considered response

 

so can i ask what do you do when you can't get back to sleep when waking early? do you get up? You will see that the Sleep Book recommends you stay in bed and at least rest.. i have been doing this but it doesn't work - i just find myself getting more anxious and frustrated.. so maybe i will try get up at that time - do something and try to go back to bed again.. the book also talks about the adrenaline rush preventing you from dropping off and how to handle this.. i do what it says (tell myself it's ok etc..) but the same thing just keeps happening over and over.. i think it will take time before that symptom goes away, but in the meantime i might have to get up..

 

i do keep a sleep diary. atm i average 5 to 5.5 hours per night - sounds like a lot but it's awful quality sleep for the most part and some nights hardly any sleep like last night. and like you my mood is awful the next day sooo hard to be upbeat but i try my best.

 

re exercise - yep pretty much everyday and try to eat healthy also..

 

i think it's just gonna take time - a WHOLE LOTTA TIME yikes!! and i am still on the valium - low dose but can't quit that just yet so who knows what will happen when i do cut altogether - hopefully insomnia won't get much worse with that..

 

geez just sooo hard to keep positive but i REALLY appreciate your support and kind words

 

and so glad that things are getting back on track for you - and yes it is sooo important to keep reminding oneself of the progress rather than focus on the setbacks

 

lov and hugs from down under

 

XOX

 

Morning 1966 

 

Aww, so sorry you had a bad night last night. You sound just like me in about July last year when I realized that the occasional rescue valium didn't relax me any more. In fact started to have the opposite effect. 

 

My sleep diary has been one of my biggest encouragements, it showed me that it always gets better again eventually. I am still always a quivering mess during the day after a bad night though, and argue with hubby when he tells me this! At the time I just can't believe it. I even wrote myself a note on a 'well' day to read next time I had a bad day, so I couldn't argue with myself.

 

That awful jerking awake is part of the process we have to live through. It has got very infrequent for me now, but if it happens I know that all I can do is try to control my reaction to it. I know you are good at this already. At first, it always turned into an all nighter for me. But after a few months, I am now finding that after a couple of hours I can start to get the odd half hour on 'those' nights. Sometimes I find that quietly getting up and going to the bathroom, torchlight only, 'resets' my calm state, and I can turn off that alert state more easily.

 

I don't react well to being awakened either. I guess the adrenaline surge fires off all the brain receptors which are impossible to control.

 

I still wake early, but have decided to accept that. 4am this morning! It will be great in the summer, depressing in the middle of our winter. In fact, loss of drowsiness in the morning was the first symptom I had of tolerance withdrawal, so maybe it will be the last one to go?

 

When this is all over, I am going to publish my sleep diary on BB to hopefully reassure others in the steps that happen with insomnia through recovery. That's something I would like to have seen myself. I am gradually creeping up to average 5:30 to 6 hrs a night, was 2 -3 at the start.

 

You WILL sleep better again, everbody says so! Wishing you a good night tonight, here are some more sleepy vibes, xx 

 

Ps, do you do any walking during the day? I always try to, not sure yet if it helps the sleep, but worth it for general health.

Hi again 1966, sorry you had another bad night 

 

I've been reading some of your other threads to understand better where you are. I didn't realise how much the ativan/valium crossover and taper were making decisions so much harder for you. I'll try and add my two halfpence, all with your very best interest at heart. 

 

I think you've had some good advice from meowie, and a couple of others. I didn't know about half life, tapering, tolerance withdrawal, etc, when I just ct'd after short term use. I can't therefore advise on this, just give my opinion with hindsight:-

 

Today, with the hellish acute withdrawal behind me, I'm glad I got it over with quickly. I was a low dose, short term user (but probably kindled due to on off usage over many years). However, when in the middle of that acute phase, not knowing how long it would last, and having recently learned about tapering, I shed many tears because I Did NOT taper, and wished I could go back and do it again - which of course I couldn't, it had gone paradoxical.

 

You are in a grey area on the border of short term use, but have no previous exposure to complicate things. I would hate to see low valium usage do to you what it did to me. The way the long half life makes the dosage you take creep up is worth being aware of. On the way into dependence this is a sneaky thing, but I understand it is a blessing on the way out. But I have zero knowledge about ativan. I hope some of the more experienced people can help you with this advice, as I only have my own to go on.

 

Re staying in bed - in the early tolerance and acute withdrawal stages, when I woke in extreme anxiety with ant crawling legs, I got up and tried to walk off the adrenaline surge. sometimes this gave me relief and I dozed, sometimes not.  I don't get that anxiety now, just alertness, and the mindfulness techniques work on that, so I stay in bed for a 8 - 9 hour maximum period like Dr Guy suggests, to physically rest my body.

 

If you want to pm me, feel free. I'm happy to share any timelines you may be interested in, or more details of my story. I'm 59, by the way, so don't know if my age was against me in all this!

thanks Queen - i am 50 - you could probs guess with my username being 1966 lol...

 

yes i have been REALLY struggling knowing what to do re coming off, getting vastly different opinions and no consensus doesn't help.. i think i just need to make a decision myself and try stick to it.. right at this moment i am likely to come off the valium in a few weeks - we shall see.. yep seems i am not really a short term user, not a long term user either.. the Ashton stuff is not helpful as it doesn't target in between situations like mine.. so it's just soo hard to know what to do and the indecision has been creating a lot of anxiety for me.. i worried most of last night about it - got myself into a bit of a state - maybe this ruined my sleep.. I'm hanging in there but it's very hard for me to be positive atm.. hopefully i will sleep better tonight and then feel more optimistic

 

yep might pm you sometime XOX

 

Hi again 1966, sorry you had another bad night 

 

I've been reading some of your other threads to understand better where you are. I didn't realise how much the ativan/valium crossover and taper were making decisions so much harder for you. I'll try and add my two halfpence, all with your very best interest at heart. 

 

I think you've had some good advice from meowie, and a couple of others. I didn't know about half life, tapering, tolerance withdrawal, etc, when I just ct'd after short term use. I can't therefore advise on this, just give my opinion with hindsight:-

 

Today, with the hellish acute withdrawal behind me, I'm glad I got it over with quickly. I was a low dose, short term user (but probably kindled due to on off usage over many years). However, when in the middle of that acute phase, not knowing how long it would last, and having recently learned about tapering, I shed many tears because I Did NOT taper, and wished I could go back and do it again - which of course I couldn't, it had gone paradoxical.

 

You are in a grey area on the border of short term use, but have no previous exposure to complicate things. I would hate to see low valium usage do to you what it did to me. The way the long half life makes the dosage you take creep up is worth being aware of. On the way into dependence this is a sneaky thing, but I understand it is a blessing on the way out. But I have zero knowledge about ativan. I hope some of the more experienced people can help you with this advice, as I only have my own to go on.

 

Re staying in bed - in the early tolerance and acute withdrawal stages, when I woke in extreme anxiety with ant crawling legs, I got up and tried to walk off the adrenaline surge. sometimes this gave me relief and I dozed, sometimes not.  I don't get that anxiety now, just alertness, and the mindfulness techniques work on that, so I stay in bed for a 8 - 9 hour maximum period like Dr Guy suggests, to physically rest my body.

 

If you want to pm me, feel free. I'm happy to share any timelines you may be interested in, or more details of my story. I'm 59, by the way, so don't know if my age was against me in all this!

I have the same symptoms with the jolt of adrenaline every time I was falling asleep. I have actually jumped up out of bed as if someone zapped me with a cattle prod in the chest. The drs seemed perplexed when I was explaining what was occurring. I haven't been able to fall asleep at all without meds since August. I am desperately ready to get off of the benzos, but how will these adrenaline jolts go away?

I have the same symptoms with the jolt of adrenaline every time I was falling asleep. I have actually jumped up out of bed as if someone zapped me with a cattle prod in the chest. The drs seemed perplexed when I was explaining what was occurring. I haven't been able to fall asleep at all without meds since August. I am desperately ready to get off of the benzos, but how will these adrenaline jolts go away?

 

I believe that you are referring to what is known as hypnic jerks. They tend to occur just as you are falling asleep and can result in a pretty big jolt to the nervous system. Recently I was doing a little research on them and read that there is a theory stating that they may be the result of a genetic reflex going back to our ancestors that slept in trees. Since the jolts often go along with the feeling of falling, it is thought that they were originally useful in waking up our monkey ancestors when they were bumped by a sleeping neighbor and in danger of falling out of a tree. I'm serious. Anyway, sleep deprivation from benzo and z-drug withdrawal seems to take the place of the careless sleeping neighbor.

It doesn't feel like I'm falling. It's just a rush of adrenaline and feels like a shock. Either way it happens every time I nod off. It's awful. I am so tired I can't keep my eyes open and can't fall asleep without the pills. It's seriously taking a toll on my body especially my heart it seems. Monkeys in trees?!