The Klonopin Klub#2

Hi  everybody!

 

Please ignore my signature line--the following pertains to somebody else.

 

I'm posting on behalf of a 43-year-old Buddy who needs advice but doesn't feel in any condition to navigate this subforum. 

 

He was relatively stable in July and August at 0.7 mg clonazepam, dosing as follows

0.100 mg at 8 am

0.100 mg at 2 pm

0.500 mg at 8 pm

 

On Aug 20, he reduced to 0.650 mg by cutting his evening dose to 0.450 mg

 

On Sept 25, he reduced to 0.625 mg by cutting his evening dose to 0.425 mg

Current dosing schedule is

0.100 mg at 8 am

0.100 mg at 2 pm

0.425 mg at 8 pm

 

Since resuming his taper in August (decreasing from 0.7 mg), his symptoms have become intolerable. 

 

Does anyone have any suggestions?  I was thinking interdose withdrawal could be the problem, but he was able to stabilize at 0.7 mg even with lopsided dosing, so...are his symptoms solely a consequence of tapering? 

 

Would it help to dose more consistently (say, 0.2 mg at 8 am and 3 pm, and 0.225 mg at 11 pm)?  He is reluctant to move much of his dosage to mornings because he is often sick to his stomach then and might lose some of his medication that way.   

 

He's already holding for a month, so increasing the hold time seems unlikely to help.  What about going to a daily liquid microtaper? 

 

Any ideas or suggestions based on experience are welcome.

 

Thanks in advance,

Koko Lee

As many here will probably tell you your friend is cutting large doses way too quickly for his/her own body to adjust to the cuts.  Klonopin is a very strong benzo.  Many of us who successfully tapered off used a micro taper format -either using a gram scale or liquid. 

 

If you go to the micro taper section of this forum you can see how people do these types of tapers. 

 

Bob 7 has a good method of how to do a dry micro taper and others can help with a liquid one. 

 

Your friend is lucky to have you to support him/her through this.  Please tell your friend that he/she can do this and being benzo free is wonderful. 

As many here will probably tell you your friend is cutting large doses way too quickly for his/her own body to adjust to the cuts.  Klonopin is a very strong benzo.  Many of us who successfully tapered off used a micro taper format -either using a gram scale or liquid. 

 

If you go to the micro taper section of this forum you can see how people do these types of tapers. 

 

Bob 7 has a good method of how to do a dry micro taper and others can help with a liquid one. 

 

Your friend is lucky to have you to support him/her through this.  Please tell your friend that he/she can do this and being benzo free is wonderful.

Hi,

May I ask why you added V to your K? Thx

I did a cross over to all Valium that failed and was told to leave in some Valium when I crossed back to K by some buddies here.  My doctor did whatever I wanted so it was no issue to get both prescriptions.    If I had it to do all over again I would have not left in any Valium. Valium gave me awful nausea the entire time I was on it.  I was too frazzled to realize this until I had been on it too long to just drop it out quickly.  Some people do much better with Valium, I was not one of them.  I hope this answered your question. 

As many here will probably tell you your friend is cutting large doses way too quickly for his/her own body to adjust to the cuts.  Klonopin is a very strong benzo.  Many of us who successfully tapered off used a micro taper format -either using a gram scale or liquid. 

 

If you go to the micro taper section of this forum you can see how people do these types of tapers. 

 

Bob 7 has a good method of how to do a dry micro taper and others can help with a liquid one. 

 

Your friend is lucky to have you to support him/her through this.  Please tell your friend that he/she can do this and being benzo free is wonderful.

 

Thanks for your feedback Kgirl!  I'll pass your message along to my friend. 

 

We have already discussed the possibility of switching to a  0.001 mg/day microtaper.  Does that sound more appropriate, with the understanding that he can hold at any dosage along the way for as long as necessary in order to stabilize?

 

On a related note, when switching to a DLMT was brought up, someone opined that, all other things being equal, a DLMT is not that different from a cut-and-hold.  Isn't that like saying that jumping off a cliff is not that much different from gradually lowering yourself down that same cliff using a rope?  Am I viewing this from the wrong perspective?   

 

Koko Lee

I did a cross over to all Valium that failed and was told to leave in some Valium when I crossed back to K by some buddies here.  My doctor did whatever I wanted so it was no issue to get both prescriptions.    If I had it to do all over again I would have not left in any Valium. Valium gave me awful nausea the entire time I was on it.  I was too frazzled to realize this until I had been on it too long to just drop it out quickly.  Some people do much better with Valium, I was not one of them.  I hope this answered your question.

It's very helpful. Thank you.

I see you were on both X & k & or switched back from one to the other at one point?

But I think you were on mostly k the longest throughout your benzo use?

Could you share why the switch to x & how you crossed back to k, please?

 

I'm on both x & k. I'm having DR with bad visual distortions for months. I'm not sure how to proceed, but want out of this awful state. Havnt told doc. He's not benzo wise. But getting ready to & scared may be forced into a fast switch or who knows what.

 

Just reaching out for support fir another long time kpin user, that's been around a bit & are successfully off. Are you healed?

I'm finding it very difficult to navigate my way through this & come up with a plan. It's hard to function like this. If you have any input, I'd appreciate it.

If interested here's my current situation

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=246849.msg3141974#msg3141974

 

Thx

SC

Scardie I was never really on xanax I took it very sporadically and then not at all.  When I started perimenopause I began having panic attacks on a pretty regular basis - and Klonopin was prescribed for me. It worked great and I have no idea why my doctor kept me on it for years and years after the initial issue was gone.  You can read my progress log on this site but suffice it to say - I am off now and have been for  years. I am fully healed and back to living my life. My years of taper were a disaster both mentally and physically for me, I never thought I would get better.  Going out to dinner was a chore, I cried when I had to get a haircut since that meant I couldn't run away in the middle of it.  I had horrible awful s/x and looked and felt awful.

 

I look back on those years as a nightmare - and I am so glad they are over.  There were others on this site when I was active here that helped me realize that I could do this, telling me I would be fine and that to get to the other side you just had to 'do it'.  Had I known what I know now I would never have stopped my taper # 1 - since I never felt better until I was totally off of the benzos. 

 

Ironically had I lived in the time of Covid I would have been much better since I would never have had to leave home.  Now that I can go out and about with ease - well here I am - due to age stuck home due to our crazy country's leaders. 

Thanks k girl for sharing your story. The struggles, I can SO relate too. Even though I'm still stuck in the nightmare, I'm inspired by your success & grateful you took the time to relay it. I hope I can get the guidence & strength I need to get safely to the other side. It is ironic. Hopefully, you can still find safe ways to to get about & enjoy yourself during Covid. SC

Just need to write out a bit of my fear here. I'm on day 6 of a liquid titration from clonazepam/K and have so much anticipatory anxiety that it's hard to unpack what's what, in terms of withdrawal. High anxiety, loud tinnitus, the rest of the strange bodily phenomena, a huge fear of seizures - never had one, but it's my biggest fear - probably because i had a partner with epilepsy and each and every seizure was terrifying for me to witness (not to mention for them to experience!) - such a complete dissolution of the psyche! and trying to call them back to consciousness - shudder - gives me anxiety to think about it. For them, epilepsy was truggered by heavy drug use and withdrawal over many years, I guess. Right now my jaw is rigid, my throat feels tight, i feel sick, my tinnitus is really loud, dissociation is profound. Just waiting for my dose to kick in, but afraid that somehow this liquid thing is not going to work for me for WHATEVER reason - that absorption in the body is different when the drug is liquid, that because i'm using alcohol to dissolve my dose that the active ingredient is somehow altered or detroyed - somebody wrote about how using vodka crystallises the active ingredient... i dunno... just - all the fears! I spoke to my doc yesterday who is awesome. She is going to do her research, look into a compounding pharmacy to create a suspension - we can get liquid K here but it's 2.5mg dose in 1ml liquid, so not great... had a panic attack the night before last, had to take a rescue dose, felt total shit about that, disappointed, shameful, lost faith. back on track yesterday and today, not without effects, though. just sitting here typing helps. Desperate to be drug free. Thanks for place to just stream some thoughts. sC

Just need to write out a bit of my fear here. I'm on day 6 of a liquid titration from clonazepam/K and have so much anticipatory anxiety that it's hard to unpack what's what, in terms of withdrawal. High anxiety, loud tinnitus, the rest of the strange bodily phenomena, a huge fear of seizures - never had one, but it's my biggest fear - probably because i had a partner with epilepsy and each and every seizure was terrifying for me to witness (not to mention for them to experience!) - such a complete dissolution of the psyche! and trying to call them back to consciousness - shudder - gives me anxiety to think about it. For them, epilepsy was truggered by heavy drug use and withdrawal over many years, I guess. Right now my jaw is rigid, my throat feels tight, i feel sick, my tinnitus is really loud, dissociation is profound. Just waiting for my dose to kick in, but afraid that somehow this liquid thing is not going to work for me for WHATEVER reason - that absorption in the body is different when the drug is liquid, that because i'm using alcohol to dissolve my dose that the active ingredient is somehow altered or detroyed - somebody wrote about how using vodka crystallises the active ingredient... i dunno... just - all the fears! I spoke to my doc yesterday who is awesome. She is going to do her research, look into a compounding pharmacy to create a suspension - we can get liquid K here but it's 2.5mg dose in 1ml liquid, so not great... had a panic attack the night before last, had to take a rescue dose, felt total shit about that, disappointed, shameful, lost faith. back on track yesterday and today, not without effects, though. just sitting here typing helps. Desperate to be drug free. Thanks for place to just stream some thoughts. sC

 

You can dilute the liquid k even more after you get it from the pharmacy. Do that, taper as slowly as necessary, and the journey will be ok. Be consistent and try to live as normal as possible not focusing on the challenges of tapering. You can do it!

Thanks Ultra, trying to do just that - walking, gardening, sewing, distracting... good info re: the liquid K, will talk to my doctor about that. Consistency is something I excell in so i'm just trying to find calmness through consistency. *deep breath* ok, i can get through this day.

 

sC

Hi guys

 

I wanted to check in and see if anyone can relate. I’m 7 months post jump and while I’m definitely much better than I was I am still 100% up to my neck in symptoms. My biggest sx now are painful tinnitus, burning scalp, muscle tightness/pain, tingling feet/hands, insomnia and dizziness. The thing that freaks me out is that many of these are new!! I think if I had a tingling, burning scalp 5 months ago and it was just lessening I wouldn’t be so scared that this w/d wouldn’t last the rest of my life. I know deep down that I’m healing and things will get better because they have. I think back to the first two months and I’m amazed any of us survive this torture. So did anyone have random new sx pop up late into the game??

 

Hugs to you all if you are going through this or are kind enough to stay on here after you healed to help.

 

 

Hi Beantownbenzo,

 

I was on a comparable dose to yours and quit cold turkey so I would imagine we share parts of the same journey.  I hated how the symptoms would come and go, some would leave never to return but replaced by others equally awful while still others would come back, it's so unsettling to not know from one day to the next how we're going to feel.  You can't make plans because you can't trust the non-linear path of recovery.

 

I'm glad you can see improvement from the first couple of months, this is difficult to do since our mind keeps telling us we're not and never will get better.  It happens though, but it takes too long.

 

Pamster

Thanks Pamster

 

You are an angel. You have helped so many people through this. I’m sure it’s super hard to come back here for a lot of people (PTSD and all) so your advice and support are so meaningful.

 

I will keep forging ahead. I’m becoming more and more aware of my body and it’s response to different things. For instance now everything I put into my body is a question. I honestly don’t think I noticed if something made my symptoms worse before because I was way worse so it didn’t matter. If that makes sense. I can no longer eat a lot of foods that didn’t seem to bother me in early w/d. MSG, orange juice, chocolate. Also can’t take any OTC meds. NyQuil made me SO SICK. I look at all of this as a good sign because it means my body is healing even though it feels like crap.

 

 

Thanks Ultra, trying to do just that - walking, gardening, sewing, distracting... good info re: the liquid K, will talk to my doctor about that. Consistency is something I excell in so i'm just trying to find calmness through consistency. *deep breath* ok, i can get through this day.

 

sC

Hi seeking,

Sorry to hear your struggles. Glad you could vent & get comfort from one more experienced & stable than me. Sounds great that you're able to do all of the activities above.

I can't remember, have we shared about Dissaciation? You mentioned it.

I'm having DR with bad visual disturbances 24/7. I can't drive.

Are you too? From benzo withdrawl? Is it 24/7?

Do you have depression?

Hope things smooth out for you soon.

SC

 

hey scaredie

 

I'm very new here, so, though i experience dissociative stuff alot, i haven't spoken about it here much. i go through periods of being able to drive and not being able to drive, i try to practise driving with a buddy so that it doesn't become too much of a monster, but there are def times when i just can't drive (or go out of the house, basically). dissociation has been a strong feature of my life's experience. i'm at the point where i no longer seperate out before and after meds, or know what's my underlying diagnosis (whatever that is!), and what is me, altered by the meds that i've been on for most of my life. so everything is 24/7 and sometimes there's a window, a glimpse of contentment, where i'm not hypervigilant about symptoms. that's brilliant, and i want that for myself. i think i've been low level depresssed for a very very long time. joy is fleeting, but i seek it. if i lose myself in a task (gardening or yoga, say) then i can think outside myself for a period of time - the flow state, i call it - and i'm always looking to be in the flow state.

 

hope things smooth out for you too! and you can find your flow

 

sC

Koko,

How long did your friend hold at .7 mg?  I can tell you my long hold at .5mg (plus some other interacting meds) totally screwed me over.  When I went to go re-taper, it was brutal.  Symptoms were agonizing and unbearable. I agree that a microtaper could help but it may not either.  I had HORRIBLE interedose w/d even at 3 even doses a day.  I was watching the clock and I could definitely feel the sx ease up after my dose settled in, only to get bad again a few hours later.  It doesn't always work and for many it hasn't but I was one of the blessed ones who c/o to Valium and got immediate relief from many of my sx.  I'm not yet declaring success b/c I'm only half way there now from my 6.5mg c/o. BUT, there were several on the FB group I was on that also c/o from Klon to Valium part way through and it was a huge help for them too.  Note the c/o was physically painful but I got through.....

hey scaredie

 

I'm very new here, so, though i experience dissociative stuff alot, i haven't spoken about it here much. i go through periods of being able to drive and not being able to drive, i try to practise driving with a buddy so that it doesn't become too much of a monster, but there are def times when i just can't drive (or go out of the house, basically). dissociation has been a strong feature of my life's experience. i'm at the point where i no longer seperate out before and after meds, or know what's my underlying diagnosis (whatever that is!), and what is me, altered by the meds that i've been on for most of my life. so everything is 24/7 and sometimes there's a window, a glimpse of contentment, where i'm not hypervigilant about symptoms. that's brilliant, and i want that for myself. i think i've been low level depresssed for a very very long time. joy is fleeting, but i seek it. if i lose myself in a task (gardening or yoga, say) then i can think outside myself for a period of time - the flow state, i call it - and i'm always looking to be in the flow state.

 

hope things smooth out for you too! and you can find your flow

 

sC

Thanks for sharing & welcome. Sorry you have these struggles, too. To clarify, with the driving, are you limited with driving more due to anxiety or due to visual distortions?

I'm limited by my visual distortions which are 24/7(but they can vary)with the DR. So like I don't trust my depth perception, nor perceiving things as they actually are. For example, Sometimes my vision is very clear, sometimes it is blurry. Sometimes everything seems to be moving around too fast, too overwhelming for my brain & Eyes. Things can look bigger & closer than I know they are or smaller & further away than I know they. Are.

Does this make sense? Do you have these type of visual distortions? That limit your driving?

Be well

Thx SC

Koko,

How long did your friend hold at .7 mg?  I can tell you my long hold at .5mg (plus some other interacting meds) totally screwed me over.  When I went to go re-taper, it was brutal.  Symptoms were agonizing and unbearable. I agree that a microtaper could help but it may not either.  I had HORRIBLE interedose w/d even at 3 even doses a day.  I was watching the clock and I could definitely feel the sx ease up after my dose settled in, only to get bad again a few hours later.  It doesn't always work and for many it hasn't but I was one of the blessed ones who c/o to Valium and got immediate relief from many of my sx.  I'm not yet declaring success b/c I'm only half way there now from my 6.5mg c/o. BUT, there were several on the FB group I was on that also c/o from Klon to Valium part way through and it was a huge help for them too.  Note the c/o was physically painful but I got through.....

 

Hi Momof7, thanks for your input, and congratualtions on having made such great progress!

 

To flesh out my friend's story a little more, he had been on delorazepam for 20 years--it's a mild benzo and he took a low dose for insomnia.  At some point he suddenly developed panic attacks and paroxetine was added to his regimen.  I'm not sure how long he was on that--maybe a year or two.  When he was ready to taper his paroxetine, a valium substitution (for the delorazepam) was attempted, but he couldn't tolerate it.

 

So Jan 2020, he was switched from delorazepam to clonazepam to "help" him taper off of paroxetine.  (The conversion to 1.5 mg clonazepam was overkill, grossly exceeding Ashton equivalency for his dose of delorazepam.)  Following the brutal taper off of paroxetine, his doctor then "tapered" him off of 0.8 mg of the clonazepam over the course of just 40 days.  Subsequently, my friend held the remaining 0.7 mg clonazepam for about 2 months and was reasonably comfortable at that dose in July and August. 

 

In late August he decided to resume tapering.  His first cut (from 0.7 mg to 0.65 mg) was 7.14%.  He knew he was taking a chance on such a big cut but thought he could handle it.  It was difficult.  After holding that for a month, his next cut, (the one he's still holding now) was to 0.625 mg--a 3.85% reduction.  Evidently, even that size reduction is too much.  It doesn't help that he suspects he is still feeling the residual effects of his paroxetine discontinuation.

 

It seems like, at this point, he is sensitized to any changes at all in his medication.  His options are to updose, hold, or keep tapering.  He is adamantly opposed to updosing and would at least like to reach an even dosing increment of 0.600 mg before deciding whether to hold or continue tapering. 

 

Since the last cut (3.85%) was so uncomfortable for him, he's thinking about microtapering.  Diluting his liquid Rivotril will be pretty straightforward.  Maybe, as you say, it won't help ease his symptoms, but I can't imagine that it will make them worse, and he can hold anywhere along the line.       

 

If what you say is true, holding for very long at any point might backfire.  It's disheartening to hear that, since I always thought that was more or less the go-to recourse when all else fails.  Yikes.

 

Additional suggestions and feedback are welcome.

 

Thanks again,

Koko Lee 

 

 

Thanks for sharing & welcome. Sorry you have these struggles, too. To clarify, with the driving, are you limited with driving more due to anxiety or due to visual distortions?

I'm limited by my visual distortions which are 24/7(but they can vary)with the DR. So like I don't trust my depth perception, nor perceiving things as they actually are. For example, Sometimes my vision is very clear, sometimes it is blurry. Sometimes everything seems to be moving around too fast, too overwhelming for my brain & Eyes. Things can look bigger & closer than I know they are or smaller & further away than I know they. Are.

 

 

hi scaredie

 

my driving anxiety is not not directly related to visual distortions, but rather to the range of phenomena that arise from high anxiety/panic, which means that somtimes i fear for my own safety when driving. Some of these experiences are related to vision (tunnel vision etc is really common during my panics) but yeah, just a general lack of control over my body makes it dangerous to myself and others to be on the road in that state. And just - driving is a panic trigger so i tend to avoid it in general.

 

i'm sorry you are experiencing what must be quite scary.

 

strength for the day!

 

sC

Koko,

Thanks for explaining more.  That's just awful and after being switched around on meds, I can empathize.  Everyone is SO different and that's what makes this so hard.  Long holds do seem to work for some and that's where it's difficult to know what's best.  I can only speak on my own experience and I know I'm not alone.  I know of others and Dr. Jennifer Leigh also discusses that if you hold longer than a couple extra weeks, further tolerance can set in.  2 months really isn't that long, though, and after going from 1.5mg to .7 in only 40 days, that could be the real problem.  I hope he can find some level of comfort on getting off this poison. 

 

Thanks for sharing & welcome. Sorry you have these struggles, too. To clarify, with the driving, are you limited with driving more due to anxiety or due to visual distortions?

I'm limited by my visual distortions which are 24/7(but they can vary)with the DR. So like I don't trust my depth perception, nor perceiving things as they actually are. For example, Sometimes my vision is very clear, sometimes it is blurry. Sometimes everything seems to be moving around too fast, too overwhelming for my brain & Eyes. Things can look bigger & closer than I know they are or smaller & further away than I know they. Are.

 

 

hi scaredie

 

my driving anxiety is not not directly related to visual distortions, but rather to the range of phenomena that arise from high anxiety/panic, which means that somtimes i fear for my own safety when driving. Some of these experiences are related to vision (tunnel vision etc is really common during my panics) but yeah, just a general lack of control over my body makes it dangerous to myself and others to be on the road in that state. And just - driving is a panic trigger so i tend to avoid it in general.

 

i'm sorry you are experiencing what must be quite scary.

 

strength for the day!

 

sC

Thanks for Reading & sharing your experience, too.

Yes, it is scary. Sometimes moreso than others. I'm taking it day by day.

Sorry to hear of your panic issues. I know they are no fun & quite scary, too.

 

Hopeful wishes!

 

SC

Koko,

Thanks for explaining more.  That's just awful and after being switched around on meds, I can empathize.  Everyone is SO different and that's what makes this so hard.  Long holds do seem to work for some and that's where it's difficult to know what's best.  I can only speak on my own experience and I know I'm not alone.  I know of others and Dr. Jennifer Leigh also discusses that if you hold longer than a couple extra weeks, further tolerance can set in.  2 months really isn't that long, though, and after going from 1.5mg to .7 in only 40 days, that could be the real problem.  I hope he can find some level of comfort on getting off this poison.

Sorry to butt in, but oh my gosh...I never knew a hold could make things worse...?

 

Alo, am I reading right, that you are feeling better crossing over to valuim from kpin?

 

I'm still on a high total daily dose & on 2 benzos, with DR & visual distortions, so doesn't seem feasible for me right now,.

But I read that people with depression do worse on valuim.

May I ask if you've struggled with depression?

 

Be well

SC

Greetings everyone ,

I Would have a question , I came down from 2 Mg of K to 0.4mg , I am using Rivotril brand its common in the EU ,

Did someone had an experience like this , I have just renewed my script as i was running low of pills . And having some strange effect from the new batch , it feels like they make me much slower and numb , even my breathig is a bit restricted or so really strange , however if i take from the leftover  pills the exact same amount I am much faster I can breathe more freely and dont feel so numb .

I got reaaly afraid of this , and its causing me a lot of stress ,

I do dry cut them the new pills seems to be more sturdy and my old ones are a bit soft , How can there be such a difference ? I havent switched brands . I have contacted the manufacturer , they wrote me that they will analyze the batch , waiting for the result , but they said they havent received any complaints yet .  Has anyone had something like this ? It makes me worry , I dose 4 times a day so if i switch I feel the effect almost immediately . Can it be that the old ones lost some strenght ?  I have some health anxiety that there can be something wrong with these new pills , If some can relate please let me know , you can message me also directly .

I try to keep calm but this rly disturbed my taper .

Newbie here. Thought I'd introduce myself.  I'm in a miasma of medication, the main culprit being the Klonopin.  I don't plan to start my taper until after the new year, but doing as much research as I can before I start my taper.

 

Question #1, for those in the know: Klonopin is supposed to stay in your system for quite some time. 12 hours, my psychiatrist said.  I had been switched from Ativan to Klonipin because I was experiencing severe Ativan interdose withdrawal and tolerance. That was in September. For the past few weeks, I have noticed that withdrawal-like symptoms are creeping in during the middle of the day. Body aches, nausea, severe fatigue (with Ativan it was insomnia), paresthesia in my arms... Could I already be building up a tolerance and withdrawing from Klonopin? A bit terrified, to say the least. I already feel horrible. Can't imagine tapering over the next year to get off of the stuff while constantly feeling like this.

 

Thank you, new friends.