The Klonopin Klub#2

Hi Lookinup,

 

I was looking at your signature and it seems like in June, there were a number of changes that happened in terms of medication. 

 

I am wondering if you are still feeling the cuts and changes since then?

 

Your Klonopin dosage seems to have stayed the same?  Is that right? 

 

Do you feel you some of your symtoms could be from the changes in June?  And did they happen at the beginning or end of the month?

 

I know these are lots of questions but it can help to figure out if your nervous system is trying to stabilize after the shifts that happened.

 

I tapered from Remeron as well and it's a powerful medication.

I think that as hard as it is, things need to settle down for a bit.

Hi Lookinup,

 

I was looking at your signature and it seems like in June, there were a number of changes that happened in terms of medication. 

 

I am wondering if you are still feeling the cuts and changes since then?

 

Your Klonopin dosage seems to have stayed the same?  Is that right? 

 

Do you feel you some of your symtoms could be from the changes in June?  And did they happen at the beginning or end of the month?

 

I know these are lots of questions but it can help to figure out if your nervous system is trying to stabilize after the shifts that happened.

 

I tapered from Remeron as well and it's a powerful medication.

I think that as hard as it is, things need to settle down for a bit.

Panic attacks right after going off Remeron.  Other symptoms have been creeping up since.  Hard to tell.  I heard then when dropping Remeron, my blood serum for Klonopin also dropped.  Worried about all these symptoms and whether they are related to Klonopin. Thanks you. It is hard to tell. And I have a thyroid issue to boot! Have read about a lot of people in withdrawal and not knowing it though.

The Greek:

 

Keep using the TARE function on the scale until your .5 mg pill weighs what your average pill weight is - then just cut a large amount of pills (I used to do 2 weeks worth) in that one sitting.  The scale is not great but again the actual accuracy of the .001 measurements is not that concerning - it is how you feel when you cut.  Please don't get obsessed with pill weight etc - you are still doing very small cuts. If you are worried that your scale is off and you can't accurately cut .001 than cut .002 and change your taper rate to reflect this. 

 

If you can access the archived KK board you will see that all of us there just used the cheap scale - only bought one - and managed to do fine all the way off.  The scales were not any better 3-5 years ago.

 

Hi Kgirl10,

 

I cannot really fault your logic. Certainly, creating a larger batch to average out inaccuracies in individual pills makes sense. And certainly, people should not obsess about exacting measurements when there are far larger (uncontrollable) differences/changes (such as interdose falls in blood levels). When tapering, members should try to zoom out (not in) and view the larger picture. Their blood levels will vary by large amounts between doses (10% plus, even for a long half-life benzodiazepine - much lager reductions for shorter half-life benzos). In light of this, attempting to measure their individual doses to accuracy of 1% or even 0.1% of total dose becomes rather meaningless. The advantage of attempting to titrate small reductions is that allows for a more general, gradual (soother) trend down in dose than can be achieved by usual pill-splitting. But, if those much larger interdose reductions swamp these tiny daily reductions, it becomes a pointless exercise try to achieve an accuracy of a fraction of a percent (or smaller) per dose.

 

Having said all that, I do have some concerns about creating large batches from pills. Firstly, how do we ensure that the ground pills do not absorb moisture? If this were to occur, the medicine might spoil while being stored. Secondly, the absorbed water would cause the powder to become denser, affecting the dose for a given mass. I do not know how large this effect would have, but we should be aware of it - through there might be ways to mitigate these effects. Thirdly, what if the process goes wrong, the powder spoils, or an accident results in the loss of the powder (a 14-day supply)? These days, it can very difficult to obtain a prescription for benzodiazepines. Let alone replace lost pills (in what the doctor would probably would consider dubious circumstances if made known to him/her).

 

Your suggestion does indeed help mitigate against variations in between pills. It is very difficult to find solid information about this. The most consistently stated tolerance for manufacture I can find is +/-20% of stated dose for pills. However, I can find no solid source for this figure. When I look at the FDA website (and I've searched quite thoroughly), I can find +/-20% stated only for therapeutic radiation doses. But, it seems reasonable to suppose that doses for pills will vary by up to a few percent of stated dose, and that manufacturers will aim for consistent dosing as it results in a better patient experience. And thus, better satisfaction with the brand. So, although creating a large batch might seem like a good idea (and it is in some respects), it seems like a fairly small return in accuracy compared to much greater interdose variations and at the risk of spoiling, etc.

 

Let me know your thoughts on this, Kgirl10. You may have already considered some of these potential issues and have ideas and/or solutions.

 

To those titrating your dose: do not worry unduly about this. The key takeaway form the above is that you generally cope with interdose drops in blood concentrations, and this is by far the greatest factor affecting withdrawal symptoms. Comparatively small differences in pill dose will have correspondingly small effects upon symptoms. Tiny inaccuracies in occurring from the limitations of your electronic scales will be completely overwhelmed (and rendered meaningless) by interdose drops and variances from the nominal pill dose. Again, zoom out, not in.

I only dose in the evening using Klonopin because I don’t like the drugged feeling in the day. Will this affect my overall healing when I jump?

I only dose in the evening using Klonopin because I don’t like the drugged feeling in the day. Will this affect my overall healing when I jump?

 

There is no reason to suppose that it would. My strong inclination is to not fix what ain't broken. We also know that for very short half-life benzodiazepines, taken just once a day (typically at night), the development of dependency is unlikely. This is because every day blood levels effectively drop to zero. So, there is not the chronic presence of benzodiazepine which is what leads to dependency. For this reason, it probably would be a very bad idea to switch from a once per day dose of Ambien to several times per day purely for the purposes of commencing withdrawal (a taper). This is because there is likely to be little to no dependency in the prior (once per day) regimen, whereas chronic dosing (several times per day) likely will lead to dependency over time.

 

By extension of the above principle, I would assume that if once per day dosing of Klonopin works for you, you might only increase your level of dependency by switching to a chronic dosing regimen. Obviously, if you began to suffer intolerable interdose withdrawal effects, you could reassess the situation.

It’s interesting that you say that because when I first started benzos last year. It was Ativan that I took at night. In the day I would experience symptoms but I also felt that as I swung from extreme anxiety to depression there would be moments where I could feel me. Now on The Klonopin I don’t feel myself anymore. It’s almost like now I’m in a drugged state of anxiety. Sometimes I get the feeling that coming off shorter acting benzos has its “benefits “. There’s a guy on YouTube who used to be a nurse that actually says that Valium is the most insidious benzo out of all of them. “From my experience, the longer the half-life, the harder the withdrawal. I switch to Xanax for my taper because it has only an 11 hour half-life. I did the taper in 45 days and no problems walking away from it.” although what this guy says is counterintuitive and against everything Dr. Ashton said...

I'm sorry. I really need to clarify that. By strongest, I meant that it does more damage than any other benzo combined. It has a very long half-life and there are other chemical aspects to it that make it difficult to metabolize and excrete from the body. It stays in your body longer than all the other benzos. I was a nurse for 11 years and I never saw a doctor who was a good doctor who would write an Rx for unless it was for a person with epilepsy. It should NEVER be taken for anxiety. Read this article: https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/valium-addiction/half-life-valium/

It’s interesting that you say that because when I first started benzos last year. It was Ativan that I took at night. In the day I would experience symptoms but I also felt that as I swung from extreme anxiety to depression there would be moments where I could feel me. Now on The Klonopin I don’t feel myself anymore. It’s almost like now I’m in a drugged state of anxiety. Sometimes I get the feeling that coming off shorter acting benzos has its “benefits “. There’s a guy on YouTube who used to be a nurse that actually says that Valium is the most insidious benzo out of all of them. “From my experience, the longer the half-life, the harder the withdrawal. I switch to Xanax for my taper because it has only an 11 hour half-life. I did the taper in 45 days and no problems walking away from it.” although what this guy says is counterintuitive and against everything Dr. Ashton said...

I'm sorry. I really need to clarify that. By strongest, I meant that it does more damage than any other benzo combined. It has a very long half-life and there are other chemical aspects to it that make it difficult to metabolize and excrete from the body. It stays in your body longer than all the other benzos. I was a nurse for 11 years and I never saw a doctor who was a good doctor who would write an Rx for unless it was for a person with epilepsy. It should NEVER be taken for anxiety. Read this article: https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/valium-addiction/half-life-valium/

 

I wish I had stayed on Ativan but I do know people who really struggled to get off it. 

 

I hope Klonopin won't cause the same issues that you describe with Valium. 

 

 

Hi Lookinup,

 

I was looking at your signature and it seems like in June, there were a number of changes that happened in terms of medication. 

 

I am wondering if you are still feeling the cuts and changes since then?

 

Your Klonopin dosage seems to have stayed the same?  Is that right? 

 

Do you feel you some of your symtoms could be from the changes in June?  And did they happen at the beginning or end of the month?

 

I know these are lots of questions but it can help to figure out if your nervous system is trying to stabilize after the shifts that happened.

 

I tapered from Remeron as well and it's a powerful medication.

I think that as hard as it is, things need to settle down for a bit.

 

How was your Remeron withddrawal.  Yes, these effects could very well be related to that.  It has been horrific!

 

 

Edit: fixed quote box.

~Colin.

Hi Lookinup,

 

I was looking at your signature and it seems like in June, there were a number of changes that happened in terms of medication. 

 

I am wondering if you are still feeling the cuts and changes since then?

 

Your Klonopin dosage seems to have stayed the same?  Is that right? 

 

Do you feel you some of your symtoms could be from the changes in June?  And did they happen at the beginning or end of the month?

 

I know these are lots of questions but it can help to figure out if your nervous system is trying to stabilize after the shifts that happened.

 

I tapered from Remeron as well and it's a powerful medication.

I think that as hard as it is, things need to settle down for a bit.

 

How was your Remeron withddrawal.  Yes, these effects could very well be related to that.  It has been horrific!

 

I tapered from 41.5 mgs of Remeron down to 0.025 over 2 years. I had the usual cut, feel bad and then stabilize pattern. .  I was also tapering Lamictal at the same time.  Once I got off I was really spacey, dropped 25 of the 30lbs I gained while on it really quickly, and over the next months, the sweat just poured off of me.  I was still tapering Lamictal for another year.after that and might have covered some of the symptoms you are experiencing now.

 

 

Edit: fixed quote boxes.

~Colin.

Hi Lookinup,

 

I was looking at your signature and it seems like in June, there were a number of changes that happened in terms of medication. 

 

I am wondering if you are still feeling the cuts and changes since then?

 

Your Klonopin dosage seems to have stayed the same?  Is that right? 

 

Do you feel you some of your symtoms could be from the changes in June?  And did they happen at the beginning or end of the month?

 

I know these are lots of questions but it can help to figure out if your nervous system is trying to stabilize after the shifts that happened.

 

I tapered from Remeron as well and it's a powerful medication.

I think that as hard as it is, things need to settle down for a bit.

 

How was your Remeron withddrawal.  Yes, these effects could very well be related to that.  It has been horrific!

 

I tapered from 41.5 mgs of Remeron down to 0.025 over 2 years. I had the usual cut, feel bad and then stabilize pattern. .  I was also tapering Lamictal at the same time.  Once I got off I was really spacey, dropped 25 of the 30lbs I gained while on it really quickly, and over the next months, the sweat just poured off of me.  I was still tapering Lamictal for another year.after that and might have covered some of the symptoms you are experiencing now.

 

So. You had some of those symptoms as well, maybe from Remeron?  Thanks for your nice response.  Wish I knew what I know now about tapering.  I jumped at about. 1.8 mg.  Starting dose of 7.5.

 

 

Edit: fixed quote boxes.

~Colin.

Hi Lookinup,

 

I was looking at your signature and it seems like in June, there were a number of changes that happened in terms of medication. 

 

I am wondering if you are still feeling the cuts and changes since then?

 

Your Klonopin dosage seems to have stayed the same?  Is that right? 

 

Do you feel you some of your symtoms could be from the changes in June?  And did they happen at the beginning or end of the month?

 

I know these are lots of questions but it can help to figure out if your nervous system is trying to stabilize after the shifts that happened.

 

I tapered from Remeron as well and it's a powerful medication.

I think that as hard as it is, things need to settle down for a bit.

 

How was your Remeron withddrawal.  Yes, these effects could very well be related to that.  It has been horrific!

 

I tapered from 41.5 mgs of Remeron down to 0.025 over 2 years. I had the usual cut, feel bad and then stabilize pattern. .  I was also tapering Lamictal at the same time.  Once I got off I was really spacey, dropped 25 of the 30lbs I gained while on it really quickly, and over the next months, the sweat just poured off of me.  I was still tapering Lamictal for another year.after that and might have covered some of the symptoms you are experiencing now.

 

So. You had some of those symptoms as well, maybe from Remeron?  Thanks for your nice response.  Wish I knew what I know now about tapering.  I jumped at about. 1.8 mg.  Starting dose of 7.5.

 

I definitely was foggy and I've had adrenaline surges in the morning.  I've worked on those by drinking adrenal cocktails, which has stopped the surges in the morning but not eliminated the withdrawal morning anxiety.  I have numbness in my feet due to lack of activity and because of benzos I think. 

 

So you definitely can be feeling the leftover Remeron jump. 

 

 

Edit: fixed quote boxes.

~Colin.

I only dose in the evening using Klonopin because I don’t like the drugged feeling in the day. Will this affect my overall healing when I jump?

 

There is no reason to suppose that it would. My strong inclination is to not fix what ain't broken. We also know that for very short half-life benzodiazepines, taken just once a day (typically at night), the development of dependency is unlikely. This is because every day blood levels effectively drop to zero. So, there is not the chronic presence of benzodiazepine which is what leads to dependency. For this reason, it probably would be a very bad idea to switch from a once per day dose of Ambien to several times per day purely for the purposes of commencing withdrawal (a taper). This is because there is likely to be little to no dependency in the prior (once per day) regimen, whereas chronic dosing (several times per day) likely will lead to dependency over time.

 

By extension of the above principle, I would assume that if once per day dosing of Klonopin works for you, you might only increase your level of dependency by switching to a chronic dosing regimen. Obviously, if you began to suffer intolerable interdose withdrawal effects, you could reassess the situation.

 

Hi Colin,

 

My clonazepam dosage honestly feels screwed and I've considered moving from 3mg at night to 2mg night / 1mg mid day.

 

That seems a bit off if I want to keep my plasma levels even throughout the day but 2mg at night is so I'm more likely to sleep

well. Sleep feels like the most important factor to my anxiety.

 

You mention short half life benzos but Clonazepam isn't exactly short half life? Not compared to most at least?

 

I took 2mg before sleep for like 15 years without developing a tolerance and in my current state I'd kill to go back to the relative

stability I had during those years. I never liked the "fog" of taking it during the day.

 

I previously did 3mg at night 1mg day when I came out of a bad spot and cut down the 1mg in the day to nothing in about a week.

It didn't feel too bad because I wasn't taking it for a long time.

 

The interdose withdrawl is what might be getting me right now as the majority of the anxiety I'm feeling is probably ~14h post 3mg dose.

 

 

Any advice is appreciated.

 

Ryan

Hi Lookinup,

 

I was looking at your signature and it seems like in June, there were a number of changes that happened in terms of medication. 

 

I am wondering if you are still feeling the cuts and changes since then?

 

Your Klonopin dosage seems to have stayed the same?  Is that right? 

 

Do you feel you some of your symtoms could be from the changes in June?  And did they happen at the beginning or end of the month?

 

I know these are lots of questions but it can help to figure out if your nervous system is trying to stabilize after the shifts that happened.

 

I tapered from Remeron as well and it's a powerful medication.

I think that as hard as it is, things need to settle down for a bit.

 

How was your Remeron withddrawal.  Yes, these effects could very well be related to that.  It has been horrific!

 

I tapered from 41.5 mgs of Remeron down to 0.025 over 2 years. I had the usual cut, feel bad and then stabilize pattern. .  I was also tapering Lamictal at the same time.  Once I got off I was really spacey, dropped 25 of the 30lbs I gained while on it really quickly, and over the next months, the sweat just poured off of me.  I was still tapering Lamictal for another year.after that and might have covered some of the symptoms you are experiencing now.

 

So. You had some of those symptoms as well, maybe from Remeron?  Thanks for your nice response.  Wish I knew what I know now about tapering.  I jumped at about. 1.8 mg.  Starting dose of 7.5.

 

I definitely was foggy and I've had adrenaline surges in the morning.  I've worked on those by drinking adrenal cocktails, which has stopped the surges in the morning but not eliminated the withdrawal morning anxiety.  I have numbness in my feet due to lack of activity and because of benzos I think. 

 

So you definitely can be feeling the leftover Remeron jump.

 

You are right. What is the adrenal cocktail?

 

Edit: fixed quote boxes.

~Colin.

Hi Lookinup,

 

I was looking at your signature and it seems like in June, there were a number of changes that happened in terms of medication. 

 

I am wondering if you are still feeling the cuts and changes since then?

 

Your Klonopin dosage seems to have stayed the same?  Is that right? 

 

Do you feel you some of your symtoms could be from the changes in June?  And did they happen at the beginning or end of the month?

 

I know these are lots of questions but it can help to figure out if your nervous system is trying to stabilize after the shifts that happened.

 

I tapered from Remeron as well and it's a powerful medication.

I think that as hard as it is, things need to settle down for a bit.

 

How was your Remeron withddrawal.  Yes, these effects could very well be related to that.  It has been horrific!

 

I tapered from 41.5 mgs of Remeron down to 0.025 over 2 years. I had the usual cut, feel bad and then stabilize pattern. .  I was also tapering Lamictal at the same time.  Once I got off I was really spacey, dropped 25 of the 30lbs I gained while on it really quickly, and over the next months, the sweat just poured off of me.  I was still tapering Lamictal for another year.after that and might have covered some of the symptoms you are experiencing now.

So. You had some of those symptoms as well, maybe from Remeron?  Thanks for your nice response.  Wish I knew what I know now about tapering.  I jumped at about. 1.8 mg.  Starting dose of 7.5.

 

I definitely was foggy and I've had adrenaline surges in the morning.  I've worked on those by drinking adrenal cocktails, which has stopped the surges in the morning but not eliminated the withdrawal morning anxiety.  I have numbness in my feet due to lack of activity and because of benzos I think. 

 

So you definitely can be feeling the leftover Remeron jump.

 

You are right. What is the adrenal cocktail?

 

The adrenal cocktail I use is, 1/2 cup of oj (no sugar, just oj), 1/4 teaspoon pink salt, 1/4 teaspoon creme of tartar.  It provides for me the salt, potassium and Vitamin C my adrenals need.  I started with once a day at about 10am and the. Moved a second one at 2pm.  Now I sometimes alternate having 1 or 2.  Some people use unsweetened coconut water if they cant handle the oj but you want somen form of Vitamin C.

 

 

Edit: fixed quote boxes.

~Colin.

I only dose in the evening using Klonopin because I don’t like the drugged feeling in the day. Will this affect my overall healing when I jump?

 

There is no reason to suppose that it would. My strong inclination is to not fix what ain't broken. We also know that for very short half-life benzodiazepines, taken just once a day (typically at night), the development of dependency is unlikely. This is because every day blood levels effectively drop to zero. So, there is not the chronic presence of benzodiazepine which is what leads to dependency. For this reason, it probably would be a very bad idea to switch from a once per day dose of Ambien to several times per day purely for the purposes of commencing withdrawal (a taper). This is because there is likely to be little to no dependency in the prior (once per day) regimen, whereas chronic dosing (several times per day) likely will lead to dependency over time.

 

By extension of the above principle, I would assume that if once per day dosing of Klonopin works for you, you might only increase your level of dependency by switching to a chronic dosing regimen. Obviously, if you began to suffer intolerable interdose withdrawal effects, you could reassess the situation.

 

Hi Colin,

 

My clonazepam dosage honestly feels screwed and I've considered moving from 3mg at night to 2mg night / 1mg mid day.

 

That seems a bit off if I want to keep my plasma levels even throughout the day but 2mg at night is so I'm more likely to sleep

well. Sleep feels like the most important factor to my anxiety.

 

You mention short half life benzos but Clonazepam isn't exactly short half life? Not compared to most at least?

 

I took 2mg before sleep for like 15 years without developing a tolerance and in my current state I'd kill to go back to the relative

stability I had during those years. I never liked the "fog" of taking it during the day.

 

I previously did 3mg at night 1mg day when I came out of a bad spot and cut down the 1mg in the day to nothing in about a week.

It didn't feel too bad because I wasn't taking it for a long time.

 

The interdose withdrawl is what might be getting me right now as the majority of the anxiety I'm feeling is probably ~14h post 3mg dose.

 

 

Any advice is appreciated.

 

Ryan

 

Hi Ryan,

 

All of that makes perfect sense to me. But I would always caution that you speak with your doctor before making any changes to your dosing regimen.

That's an interesting aspect, Colin and what I have wondered for a long time.  I had no choice but to split my klonopin dose into 3 because of severe i/d withdrawal symptoms that started after a while, when I held my dose too long.  But before that I was at night only and I have wondered if splitting my dose up was a mistake that has made my withdrawal much harder......who knows.  So you are saying that for most, tolerance is less likely to develop when an individual only takes 1 time per day?  I have seen over and over that those who are only taking a benzo at night (or one time per day) seem to have an easier time coming off but others have said that this is not true at all. 

 

Part of me assumed that perhaps that those that took 1 time per day just had a slower metabolism of the medication....... 

That's an interesting aspect, Colin and what I have wondered for a long time.  I had no choice but to split my klonopin dose into 3 because of severe i/d withdrawal symptoms that started after a while, when I held my dose too long.  But before that I was at night only and I have wondered if splitting my dose up was a mistake that has made my withdrawal much harder......who knows.  So you are saying that for most, tolerance is less likely to develop when an individual only takes 1 time per day?  I have seen over and over that those who are only taking a benzo at night (or one time per day) seem to have an easier time coming off but others have said that this is not true at all. 

 

Part of me assumed that perhaps that those that took 1 time per day just had a slower metabolism of the medication.......

 

The reality of the situation is that the vast majority of our members are here because they have already developed dependency. But of course, there will be varying depths of dependency. Infrequent use of benzodiazepines does not lead to dependency. Once per day dosing of the shortest half-life benzodiazepines also appears to be relatively safe. So, it would seem only sensible to not switch to a chronic dosing regimen without good reason. And certainly not do this solely for the purposes of then tapering off.

 

If you take infrequent doses of benzodiazepines, you would just stop. Maybe try taking them less and less frequently - just for 'you really need them' - or in increasingly smaller doses, but you would never increase frequency of use. The exact same principle applies to the very short half-life benzos (typically, with half-life of about 2 hours), since blood levels effectively fall to zero every day, thus largely (at least) thwarting the development of dependency. So, again, either just quit, or take smaller doses over a relatively short period of time, or take them less and less frequency for while and then quit. And, the same applies after short-term use.

 

With relatively long half-life benzodiazepines, even taken just once per day, development of dependency is probably to be expected over time. However, perhaps the depth of the dependency is somewhat mitigated by the less chronic dosing regimen compared to two or more doses per day. So, if some dependency has already developed, but interdose effects are manageable, why risk deepening the dependency by switching to more chronic dosing regimen? Maybe this will be unsustainable, necessitating an additional dose (or more) across the day, because the longer we take benzodiazepines, the greater the risk of deepening dependency. And a deepening dependency surely can occur during a taper too. This is actually why I suggest that it is better to taper off at the fastest, reasonably tolerated and safe rate possible, because although we are reducing our exposure as we taper, dependency is a function of not just physical predisposition and dose, but frequency and length of use too.

 

For those small number of members who come here, after short term use, or infrequent use, or taking very short half-life benzos just for sleep at night, they certainly should not switch to a longer half-life benzo or start chronically dosing if their aim is to quit. Rather (after consulting with their doctor), they would either quit in one go, or gradually decrease their dose over a short period of time, whilst insuring no uptick in frequency of use.

 

In your particular case, I assume that you were experiencing interdose effects which were unmanageable. You were presumably already dependent, so you do what you need to do. All I am suggesting is that for those where the depth of dependency appears to be to be relatively low, why needlessly risk deepening it? Assume the best, and play it by ear.

 

For the much greater majority of members, none of this applies. They are chronically dependent, so round the clock dosing is usually the best option. I am not talking about that more usual situation. But we should be especially careful about what we suggest to new members, who might have only arrived here because they have heard the horror stories, rather than because they are already verifiably and deeply dependent.

 

All the above is general guidance based upon reading, especially from Prof. Ashton. Of course, anyone considering changes to their medications should do this in consultation with their doctor. There could be potential special considerations. These are just meant as general (somewhat opinionated) guidance before embarking on a taper schedule, and are particularly applicable where the member has little reason to suppose that they have already developed a true dependency.

Colin: Thank you for your thoughts.  I never turned my pills into all powder - I just filed off a bit of the pill to get a smaller 'chunk' on the way down and put the chunks in a 14 day pill box.  I realized that if I made a 'mistake' it didn't really matter that much since I was pretty much awful regardless of what I did during the entire course of my taper.  I had tried liquid and for me it didn't work, I felt awful on it w/o tapering, so I essentially had no choice except to use the gram scale. 

 

I cut 2 weeks worth because doing the scale every day was just impossible for me - it was hard enough to sit down and cut pills every 2 weeks. Sometimes I also cut  pills for just a week - depending on how I was feeling - but I never cut pills to use for just for one day. 

 

To be frank I never even thought about the issues you raised in your reply to me and I can only speak to my experience - which was successful.  I guess for those of us trying to get off that is the bottom line - did it work. For me it did; I was able to successfully get off and the lower I got (when you would think the small bits of pills would make me feel worse due to inconsistency) the better I felt.  I am one of the lucky ones who is essentially fully healed. All of the mental and physical issues I had during my taper are long gone- thank heavens.

 

(Note:  Re running out of pills:  I was lucky in that my doctor gave me whatever I wanted in terms of a prescription.  I never had to ask for more pills though since my prescription always covered what I needed during the entire course of my taper. )

 

I hope this helped.  Kgirl

Colin: Thank you for your thoughts.  I never turned my pills into all powder - I just filed off a bit of the pill to get a smaller 'chunk' on the way down and put the chunks in a 14 day pill box.  I realized that if I made a 'mistake' it didn't really matter that much since I was pretty much awful regardless of what I did during the entire course of my taper.  I had tried liquid and for me it didn't work, I felt awful on it w/o tapering, so I essentially had no choice except to use the gram scale. 

 

I cut 2 weeks worth because doing the scale every day was just impossible for me - it was hard enough to sit down and cut pills every 2 weeks. Sometimes I also cut  pills for just a week - depending on how I was feeling - but I never cut pills to use for just for one day. 

 

To be frank I never even thought about the issues you raised in your reply to me and I can only speak to my experience - which was successful.  I guess for those of us trying to get off that is the bottom line - did it work. For me it did; I was able to successfully get off and the lower I got (when you would think the small bits of pills would make me feel worse due to inconsistency) the better I felt.  I am one of the lucky ones who is essentially fully healed. All of the mental and physical issues I had during my taper are long gone- thank heavens.

 

(Note:  Re running out of pills:  I was lucky in that my doctor gave me whatever I wanted in terms of a prescription.  I never had to ask for more pills though since my prescription always covered what I needed during the entire course of my taper. )

 

I hope this helped.  Kgirl

 

Nice to see you Kgirl! I did the same thing while I was tapering based on your advice and it worked well until I was completely slammed by life stress. I see a few pages back you wished me and my son well. He is in a pretty good place right now--gained four pounds in two weeks and seems like the medication routine he is in has him a bit more settled. If things continue to go well I may resume a very, very slow taper in 2020.

NJ - Glad to hear your son is doing better.  As for your taper I think if it were me I would hold off a bit and enjoy everyone feeling good for a bit before before trying to taper again.    There will come the 'right time' for you to do your taper.  Also glad to see you are working from home, I know for me that impacted my stress level.  I hope the new job is working out for you. Kgirl

Good to see you on the thread Kgirl.

 

My taper is pretty awful right now but I'm trying to get lower so I can get some relief from the side effects of this med. 

 

It has never made me feel good or had any real benefits for me so there is no point in staying on.  Lots of hard days with some mini breaks but generally its been a hard slog lately.

 

 

All the above is general guidance based upon reading, especially from Prof. Ashton. Of course, anyone considering changes to their medications should do this in consultation with their doctor. There could be potential special considerations. These are just meant as general (somewhat opinionated) guidance before embarking on a taper schedule, and are particularly applicable where the member has little reason to suppose that they have already developed a true dependency.

 

Yep. I was more or less basing my pattern on Ashton's advice, even though her 3mg taper looks quite different

she says

Design the schedule around your own symptoms. For example, if insomnia is a major problem, take most of your dosage at bedtime; if getting out of the house in the morning is a difficulty, take some of the dose first thing (but not a large enough dose to make you sleepy or incompetent at driving!).

 

 

I've taken it for 15 years. I know I'm dependent upon it. I know how I feel when I miss a dose. I'd barely sleep.

Even during the YEARS of perfect stability on 2mgs. Miss a dose, sleep terrible. Maybe 2-3 hours sleep then I'd

wake up and realize "Yeah I forgot the meds".

 

The original doctor (now deceased) who prescribed me the 2mg/night originally said "If it works, stop trying to fix it".

That sorta stuck with me. He was a good guy. I was struggling with like half a dozen things for anxiety at the time.

2mg/night worked.

 

I'm not worried about my Physician(s). I'm lucky in the respect that the physicians around me are friends and family.

They trust me to take and taper off of it. They've watched me take 2mg consistently for 15 years. Truth is, they trust

me because they really don't know shit about tapering people off benzos other than "Do it REALLY slow". Even the doc

who is an addictive medicines specialist says "You just need to slice the pills down over 6 months".

 

 

Colin, as an aside, have you done any research on other meds? There's an HT1a receptor agonist called Sediel that is

only available in Asia. It's a cousin of Busbar but more potent at the HT1a site with WAY less side effects. I'm assuming

it's not brought to the US because it's just not profitable dealing with FDA. It's generic name is Tandospirone. I tried

searching the forums but came up with nothing. It's only prescribed in Japan and China.  I ask because it competes with

Benzo's in anxiolytic potency in a number of studies. It was noted as helping with alcohol withdraw in mouse studies but

I don't put a lot of stock in those.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandospirone

 

 

Ryan

Colin: Thank you for your thoughts.  I never turned my pills into all powder - I just filed off a bit of the pill to get a smaller 'chunk' on the way down and put the chunks in a 14 day pill box.  I realized that if I made a 'mistake' it didn't really matter that much since I was pretty much awful regardless of what I did during the entire course of my taper.  I had tried liquid and for me it didn't work, I felt awful on it w/o tapering, so I essentially had no choice except to use the gram scale. 

 

I cut 2 weeks worth because doing the scale every day was just impossible for me - it was hard enough to sit down and cut pills every 2 weeks. Sometimes I also cut  pills for just a week - depending on how I was feeling - but I never cut pills to use for just for one day. 

 

To be frank I never even thought about the issues you raised in your reply to me and I can only speak to my experience - which was successful. I guess for those of us trying to get off that is the bottom line - did it work. For me it did; I was able to successfully get off and the lower I got (when you would think the small bits of pills would make me feel worse due to inconsistency) the better I felt.  I am one of the lucky ones who is essentially fully healed. All of the mental and physical issues I had during my taper are long gone- thank heavens.

 

(Note:  Re running out of pills:  I was lucky in that my doctor gave me whatever I wanted in terms of a prescription.  I never had to ask for more pills though since my prescription always covered what I needed during the entire course of my taper. )

 

I hope this helped.  Kgirl

 

Hello, Kgirl.  Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us.  It is very helpful.  Like you, I had major issues with homemade liquid so had to find a different approach.  You’ve hit the proverbial nail on the head - your approach worked for you and that’s all that really matters.  Belated congratulations on your successful taper and full recovery. Your story is an inspiration to us all!  Libertas

Hello,

Can someone please let me know if these symptoms sound like acute withdrawal even though I am still staking the same dose—.5

 

Sensory- twitching, sharp needles poking in legs, crawly scalp at times, tingling, numbness of bottom left foot, palpitations.  I have stopped Remeron in also, so don’t know whether this is a combination of both withdrawals or if it sounds more like Klonopin. Also, cold nose, cold intolerant.

 

Thank you very much.  Where do I go from here?

Lookingup:

 

Boy can I relate to your symptoms   I experienced everything you are sharing and I did taper off Paxil pretty

quickly and then clonazepam at a slower rate, at least the last half of my 2 mg.  The cold thing for me was my thyroid and

as soon as I started taking a low dose, that symptoms was gone. I am now tapering off thyroid.  I have felt like I have neuropathy in my feet with a severe burning feeling and that has gone from full time to occasionally. The itching thing was real for me, too.  The heart palpitations which were severe after a heart attack have virtually gone away and my heart is healthy again at 5 months off.

 

Congratulations on getting off the Remeron and I guess I could suggest that it doesn't matter what caused the withdrawal symptoms, things will get better with time.  Things have gone way better than I had expected given my long term use and high dosage of C.

 

Where do you go?  Stay the course with your taper and remember that you will begin true healing when these drugs are out of

your system: so said Dr. Ashton.

 

 

Hang in there, Klonkar