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Any suggestions to use anything for tapering other than Librium or diazepam ?


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Thank you, we'll see how it goes in the meantime.

 

'what benzo' you could simplify it like that if you like.

 

Alprazolam (IR, XR) , bromazepam, Librium, clobazam, clonazepam (!), Tranxene, diazepam, flunitrazepam, flurazepam (?), loprazolam, lormetazepam, lorazepam, oxazepam, nitrazepam, midazolam, brotizolam, prazepam are available. Some of those are hypnotics.

 

He would like to know what you have taken and why it didn't work, which benzos you have researched and didn't want to try. Then he may ask, why doesn't he want to try this? See, I remembered you were a man. :) He may end up saying, the other benzos that may be good might not be available where he lives, which I can't tell him where. So he might say, I don't know anything about prazepam, for example. He also might say, Liberty should try Valium again, but this time up it by .5 mg at a time and when you start to feel uncomfortable, than reduce that dose by .5 mg.

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I'm sorry, haven't I said all that stuf ?

 

Taken: diazepam, Tranxene, lorazepam and of course clonazepam

 

I've found very little information about bromazepam.

 

Diazepam: short/medium acting, accumulates excessively (saturating tissues) which does something but is not remotely the same as the long acting clonazepam. (half lfie vs duration of action) It might work well (therapeutically) as an anxiolytic, but I took it for a physical reason. In a nutshell: a very different drug, including the effect of the drug (binding to receptors?) Clonazepam is more 'physical'. Someone with an anxiety disorder might do well on diazepam, just one aspect that I didn't like is that diazepam is much worse for sleep than clonazepam. And I've always had sleeping issues. I could never take an anxiolytic for sleep. (therapeutic use)

Different as night and day. Required dosing: probably three times a day (peaks and valleys), vs clonazepam once a day.

Last time I gave it a serious try (7 days?) it was getting much, much weaker and more problematic as the clonazepam left the body. I guess it prevented convulsions ... If that's all ?

Unpleasant side effects like depression etc. After those 7 days I started feeling very strange, getting very little sleep.

 

I just couldn't mix diazepam and clonazepam, I wouldn't know how to explain that in a few words !

I don't have a 'stable' baseline either, not since lorazepam.

 

Tranxene: tried, very short acting, much weaker, quite different, I had my hesitations about forcing myself on that drug ('do or die'). I know the half life is long. It just seemed worse than diazepam.

 

It's not as I'm so healthy that I have a full life and fall asleep at night because I've had such a busy and great day ... And in my experience, anxiolytics have the ability to block falling asleep.

 

Lorazepam: that was the disaster I told you about earlier. Just wasn't doable when I developed tolerance to this drug (dependence). When the hypnotic, sedative and amnestic properties had gone it was a weak, short acting drug (in the beginning I could dose twice a day, GP's suggestion). After going down to 2 mg and being stuck I eventuelly went back to clonazepam because I didn't want to make things worse. Right or wrong ? It's what I did.

 

The only frame of reference is being healthy and high functioning, then tapering clonazepam is much 'easier'.

 

That's the drugs I tried. And of course various hypnotics (many years ago), taken infrequently. Example: midazolam, nitrazepam, temazepam etc. I guess he knows the hypnotics.

It didn't seem to make sense to switch to a hypnotic.

 

'Liberty should try Valium again, but this time up it by .5 mg at a time and when you start to feel uncomfortable, than reduce that dose by .5 mg.' I always feel unconfortable !

 

I think I looked at about any benzo that's not a hypnotic. Oh, the doc didn't like clobazam (that's so much clobazam ! Just like 40 mg diazepam, that's so much !).

 

I looked at a flumazenil detox, 6 days infusions.

 

What else can I say ? I think I'm asking for the impossible. Sorry.

 

Maybe a 'chat' would be more helpful ! But it's a different country.

 

 

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I'm sorry, haven't I said all that stuf ?

 

Taken: diazepam, Tranxene, lorazepam and of course clonazepam

 

I've found very little information about bromazepam.

 

Diazepam: short/medium acting, accumulates excessively (saturating tissues) which does something but is not remotely the same as the long acting clonazepam. (half lfie vs duration of action) It might work well (therapeutically) as an anxiolytic, but I took it for a physical reason. In a nutshell: a very different drug, including the effect of the drug (binding to receptors?) Clonazepam is more 'physical'. Someone with an anxiety disorder might do well on diazepam, just one aspect that I didn't like is that diazepam is much worse for sleep than clonazepam. And I've always had sleeping issues. I could never take an anxiolytic for sleep. (therapeutic use)

Different as night and day. Required dosing: probably three times a day (peaks and valleys), vs clonazepam once a day.

Last time I gave it a serious try (7 days?) it was getting much, much weaker and more problematic as the clonazepam left the body. I guess it prevented convulsions ... If that's all ?

Unpleasant side effects like depression etc. After those 7 days I started feeling very strange, getting very little sleep.

 

I just couldn't mix diazepam and clonazepam, I wouldn't know how to explain that in a few words !

I don't have a 'stable' baseline either, not since lorazepam.

 

Tranxene: tried, very short acting, much weaker, quite different, I had my hesitations about forcing myself on that drug ('do or die'). I know the half life is long. It just seemed worse than diazepam.

 

It's not as I'm so healthy that I have a full life and fall asleep at night because I've had such a busy and great day ... And in my experience, anxiolytics have the ability to block falling asleep.

 

Lorazepam: that was the disaster I told you about earlier. Just wasn't doable when I developed tolerance to this drug (dependence). When the hypnotic, sedative and amnestic properties had gone it was a weak, short acting drug (in the beginning I could dose twice a day, GP's suggestion). After going down to 2 mg and being stuck I eventuelly went back to clonazepam because I didn't want to make things worse. Right or wrong ? It's what I did.

 

The only frame of reference is being healthy and high functioning, then tapering clonazepam is much 'easier'.

 

That's the drugs I tried. And of course various hypnotics (many years ago), taken infrequently. Example: midazolam, nitrazepam, temazepam etc. I guess he knows the hypnotics.

It didn't seem to make sense to switch to a hypnotic.

 

'Liberty should try Valium again, but this time up it by .5 mg at a time and when you start to feel uncomfortable, than reduce that dose by .5 mg.' I always feel unconfortable !

 

I think I looked at about any benzo that's not a hypnotic. Oh, the doc didn't like clobazam (that's so much clobazam ! Just like 40 mg diazepam, that's so much !).

 

I looked at a flumazenil detox, 6 days infusions.

 

What else can I say ? I think I'm asking for the impossible. Sorry.

 

Maybe a 'chat' would be more helpful ! But it's a different country.

 

Your English is so good that I suspect you lived in an English speaking country or have traveled a lot or perhaps were born here but moved elsewhere. I would love to chat or email as that is much easier but I've been punished for asking for things like that. Like my PM system has been shut down. I really hate that to pieces! Yes, now I have everything I need as I can just hand this post over to my pdoc and that will explain why you can't take certain benzos. He will probably ask if you want to take adjunct medication. He told one person to take MM and she said that was the best decision she made, as it helped her so much. But I wonder if you can obtain that in the country where you live? Is iust just the US that can smoke it?

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I may be able to take MM, I'm just not sure. There are no (serious) penalties for taking the 'nonmedical' variety.

 

About adjunct medication: I'm not against that, as long as it works ! I'm rather pill sensitive. (for example, antimuscarinic drugs)

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I may be able to take MM, I'm just not sure. There are no (serious) penalties for taking the 'nonmedical' variety.

 

About adjunct medication: I'm not against that, as long as it works ! I'm rather pill sensitive. (for example, antimuscarinic drugs)

 

Liberty:

 

That can be tough if you are sensitive to meds. And I knew you were anyway because of your benzo problem. Which other non benzos have you tried?

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Low dose Seroquel (25 mg), a few times (6?) while I was tapering lorazepam. Three times it helped just a little, three times it didn't do squat. No major adverse effects, although I think there was a very mild after-effect.

 

I could not tolerate domperidone at all after I switched back to clonazepam after that lorazepam taper.

 

Promethazine ... Just no... Please no ... Last time I could use it for sleep was maybe 2014, and even then it had a very nasty hangover effect, lasting 2-3 days (?) It barely did anything for sleep.

 

Hydroxyzine ... I could tolerate it, but it did very little if anything (for sleep).

 

A very long time before I ever took clonazepam, I once tried amitriptyline. Half a 25 mg tablet. I did sleep on it, but the next day I felt so miserable that I regretted taking it.

 

That's all I can think of right now.

 

 

 

 

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Low dose Seroquel (25 mg), a few times (6?) while I was tapering lorazepam. Three times it helped just a little, three times it didn't do squat. No major adverse effects, although I think there was a very mild after-effect.

 

I could not tolerate domperidone at all after I switched back to clonazepam after that lorazepam taper.

 

Promethazine ... Just no... Please no ... Last time I could use it for sleep was maybe 2014, and even then it had a very nasty hangover effect, lasting 2-3 days (?) It barely did anything for sleep.

 

Hydroxyzine ... I could tolerate it, but it did very little if anything (for sleep).

 

A very long time before I ever took clonazepam, I once tried amitriptyline. Half a 25 mg tablet. I did sleep on it, but the next day I felt so miserable that I regretted taking it.

 

That's all I can think of right now.

 

 

 

Great Liberty: Now I think I have all that I need. :smitten::thumbsup:

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Low dose Seroquel (25 mg), a few times (6?) while I was tapering lorazepam. Three times it helped just a little, three times it didn't do squat. No major adverse effects, although I think there was a very mild after-effect.

 

I could not tolerate domperidone at all after I switched back to clonazepam after that lorazepam taper.

 

Promethazine ... Just no... Please no ... Last time I could use it for sleep was maybe 2014, and even then it had a very nasty hangover effect, lasting 2-3 days (?) It barely did anything for sleep.

 

Hydroxyzine ... I could tolerate it, but it did very little if anything (for sleep).

 

A very long time before I ever took clonazepam, I once tried amitriptyline. Half a 25 mg tablet. I did sleep on it, but the next day I felt so miserable that I regretted taking it.

 

That's all I can think of right now.

 

 

 

Great Liberty: Now I think I have all that I need. :smitten::thumbsup:

 

One of the wonderful things about this forum is the incredible support and encouragement our members provide to others, all the while going through withdrawal themselves.  Information is also available about these drugs, withdrawal and recovery.

 

I would put out a big caution concerning going through a member to get information from their doctor.  A face to face meeting with the doctor is the best way to get accurate and appropriate information and guidance.  So much can get lost in the translation, either from the member to her doctor or from the doctor to the member in question. 

 

Remember, we are not experts here. Even doctors, should they choose to post, can not give medical advice. It would be dangerous and inappropriate.

 

This message comes from concern about the well being of all members.

 

pianogirl

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pianogirl,

 

I get that. But here, a 'benzo wise' doctor is a doc who doesn't start someone on benzodiazepines, and that's the end of it. My knowledge dwarfs the knowledge of any doc I've ever met.

 

And yet, I got no practical solution ...

 

Oh, there was that neurologist on healthtap who seemed to know a few things I didn't.

 

And I got that offer for a 'flumazenil detox' which I'm inclined to 'decline', but I'm still looking at that flumazenil thing occasionally.

 

I'll listen to any opinion that seems to make sense.

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I wonder what symptoms you have, Liberty? I have first, constipation and later on the big D. I find it annoying.

 

Betsy :)

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It's a very long list, really. I don't feel comfortable posting that on the open forum. I did post some stuf in the KK thread.

 

What's just the worst is the general deterioration of my health, being low functioning, insomnia (relative lack of sleep, even while not tapering), exhaustion, generally a dysfunctional body.

 

The winter has been a killer, and it hasn't gotten any better since.

 

Clonazepam should be outlawed.

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Hey Liberty:

 

Yes, it should be banned. I was just asking, ya know? ;) I am not willing to spend the time going through the War & Peace version of KK. Was winter bad because of the season or just bad?

 

Betsy :)

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I know, the thread can be hectic and fast paced !

 

For years since I've been on K the drug is more sedating in the summer/sunny weather than in the winter/cloudy weather. That's a K thing and probably my genetics as well.

 

But after that lorazepam taper ... I was somewhat fine till Nov 2015. Ever since that lorazepam thing the clonazepam was 'weaker'. So, having to withstand the winter and having unusually severe insomnia ... I was getting to the part where everything started to effect everything ...

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And just to follow up on that winter thing: I did lose muscle, muscle rigidity or whatever, issues like eye pain, digestive issues. And with insomnia on top of that ...
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Not really related to benzogirl and her pdoc:

 

What about complications as a result of polydrugging/drug poisoning, sequentially/not at the same time ?

 

Two powerful anticholinergics/antimuscarinics, lorazepam ... everything really messed me up.

I get the idea of tapering. But I'm just not at the place I was before I started on lorazepam early 2015. And those other drugs did damage too. Mix in exhaustion, chronic stress, paradoxical reactions (?), poor health, lack of real healthcare ... what am I supposed to taper from ?

 

It's really not a GABA receptor issue (although both lorazepam and clonazepam acted on those too, of course). The phrase 'motor cortex' rings a bell. One PI sheet or similar linked the antimyoclonic action of clonazepam to nerve transmission in the motor cortex. In my mind, I can make a connection between that and some 'health issues', varying from intestinal issues, muscle issues, hormonal issues, possibly cognitive issues. And my inability to do a 'normal' taper.

 

My body has been ravaged by the drugs ... All prescription drugs. When I went to school, I was warned about drugs like heroin, but never about prescription drugs.

I wish I could do a real detox. But if I were to just stop C/T I'd fall apart. A few years ago the worst thing I'd have expected was not sleeping for a few months ...

 

I guess I had to get this off my chest. Anyway, if anyone has any comments ? I guess the problem is the 'baseline' is wrong.

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Not really related to benzogirl and her pdoc:

 

What about complications as a result of polydrugging/drug poisoning, sequentially/not at the same time ?

 

Two powerful anticholinergics/antimuscarinics, lorazepam ... everything really messed me up.

I get the idea of tapering. But I'm just not at the place I was before I started on lorazepam early 2015. And those other drugs did damage too. Mix in exhaustion, chronic stress, paradoxical reactions (?), poor health, lack of real healthcare ... what am I supposed to taper from ?

 

It's really not a GABA receptor issue (although both lorazepam and clonazepam acted on those too, of course). The phrase 'motor cortex' rings a bell. One PI sheet or similar linked the myoclonic action of clonazepam to nerve transmission in the motor cortex. In my mind, I can make a connection between that and some 'health issues', varying from intestinal issues, muscle issues, hormonal issues, possibly cognitive issues. And my inability to do a 'normal' taper.

 

My body has been ravaged by the drugs ... All prescription drugs. When I went to school, I was warned about drugs like heroin, but never about prescription drugs.

I wish I could do a real detox. But if I were to just stop C/T I'd fall apart. A few years ago the worst thing I'd have expected was not sleeping for a few months ...

 

I guess I had to get this off my chest. Anyway, if anyone has any comments ? I guess the problem is the 'baseline' is wrong.

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benzogirl, I don't know what you just did - copy with smartphone ? It shows as a quote.

 

Anyway, I replaced 'myoclonic' with 'antimyoclonic'.

With doctors, there is such a thing as too much information ...

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benzogirl, I don't know what you just did - copy with smartphone ? It shows as a quote.

 

Anyway, I replaced 'myoclonic' with 'antimyoclonic'.

With doctors, there is such a thing as too much information ...

 

I just quoted it to show that I had read it. To have the info..........But your sig does not include the other drugs you have taken or are on........

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Oh, whom am I kidding ?

 

One thing that seems obvious is that I'm in very poor health; while on clonazepam it can be difficult to 'bridge' the time between the daily doses and my body has a tendency to pump out catabolic hormones. The most destructive one is most likely cortisol. Not much adrenaline. Maybe some norepinephrine which may keep me awake at night ...

 

While on diazepam I can feel 'drunk' (for a little while) and out of energy. Exhausted. Bad for sleep, though. Very different drug, different receptors, different binding to areas in the brain.

 

I *am* exhausted. Intestinal distress which can wake me up and which most likely interferes with digestion, most likely thyroid hormones and other healthy hormones like testosterone/HGH are out of whack.

 

Under better circumstances/health, I'd need about 6 months to taper clonazepam directly. My picture being that the two weeks after stopping clonazepam would be very harsh. Then the clonazepam would be out of the body, and for the next four weeks my nervous system would be completely raw. With a lot of luck, in the months after that a recovery would set in, very slowly.

 

If only I could go back in time a few years ...

 

An idea that frequently comes to mind is that I need 'patching up', bypassing the concept of 'it's not an illness'. From a medical-technical perspective, a lot would still be possible.

I didn't get into this *only* because of this drug, my GP (and at least two other docs) messed around, the GP misled me, multiple iatrogenic drug poisoning (antimuscarinics, lorazepam), I was asked to wait, substandard medical care (even for this country). A correction of medical errors.

If I were rich most likely there would be some options ... But I seem stuck in this 'prison'.

 

Both clonzepam and diazepam, essentially useless drugs. No therapeutic value. While clonazepam might help me sleep in some fashion, it is the worst hypnotic.

 

Again, what comes to mind after a recent try of diazepam: I'd need to go from the disruptive effects of clonazepam to the disruptive effects of diazepam. While tapering or not, I'd have to deal with the withdrawal effects of clonazepam and the issues related to being on diazepam (developing of tolerance, dependence, toxic effects, problems). Then there's the tapering ... I'm by no means 'fine'. It's not a 'habit'.

 

If only I were healthier, then I would be able to taper the clonazepam. Maybe not fully to the end, but it would not be as bad as this. I got caught by some health issues, docs, and unexpected circumstances.

 

Oh, I have never tapered a drug by switching to another drug ...

 

Bets, I guess this is probably too much for the pdoc ...

 

For as far as I know, ther is not a single doc in this country who is even somewhat 'benzo wise'. In addition to that, there are no docs who have experience with clonazepam as it is almost never prescribed.

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MM ? I take it you mean medical marijuana ? I have never taken it, the same goes for the recreational variety. Oh, I didn't even like tobacco, or alcohol ... And then a drug like this does me in ...

 

I have not taken any antipsychotic except low dose Seroquel (taken about 6 times, worked a bit 3 times, failed the other three times), as far as antidepressants go there is just that one time use of amitriptyline. I did sleep a bit on the latter, but it was horrible to get through the day.

 

The antimuscarinics are solifenacin (no I didn't have 'overactive bladder'...) and mebeverine.

(colofactab.pdf for the latter , it seems it is a bit more than just an antimuscarinic)

 

Tranxene is a bit like diazepam, except weaker, shorter acting, and different. Shorter acting and a very long half life seemed a bit difficult for tapering ...

 

That lorazepam was 'good' till dependence/tolerance to that drug set in ...

 

Hydroxizine did very little, promethazine is a drug that I haven't tried in years. Last time, it barely did anything for sleep and was rough during the day.

 

I can't think of anything 'good', except the hypnotic benzos I used to take infrequently years ago.

Melatonin used to work occasionally, but only very late at night.

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Liberty

 

Yes, I meant medical marijuana. I don't know if you can get it in your country but it has been working wonders for a buddie of mine and she had a similar problem that you do. She takes CBD oil, w/o the TCH, so you don't get high. CBD oil is not a controlled substance anywhere. I am buying a bottle that will be shipped to me.............just in case I run into problems later on. The OTC version does not work very well, so don't bother with that. I can give you the name of the guy and instead of paying $90 for a phone call or Skype, just email him, tell him your problems and he will help you for free, if you don't bother him too much. It mainly works on anxiety and insomnia, but other things as well. This is all he does. Gives you the right oil, depending on your problems. It can help with all sorts of issues, including gut ones. He's an expert on this and that's what he does for a living. Also maybe your seroquel dose was too low? That's what I am thinking. I know mine gets rid of any w/d s/x and I sleep very well.

 

Betsy  :)

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