Any suggestions to use anything for tapering other than Librium or diazepam ?

Thanks, I did try Tranxene ... very weak, short acting, and quite different ... there may not be an alternative ... (I know, long half life)

 

Maybe I should get something like gabapentin somehow. The GP rejected that earlier.

Oh, if only I could turn back the clock.

 

Something like lorazepam - high potency, longer acting than diazepam, closer to clonazepam could have worked if the drug was not so extremely addictive and the GP messed it up.

 

Hi:

 

I looked up Tranzene from Ashton and it seemed like it had a long half life, which is why I suggested it. Pls stay away from Ativan. It can be a real killer to come off, and oh boy, the post w/d!! I have quite a few BB friends who suffered hell for two years on a small dose for a short period of time. Like .25 mg for 6 weeks. Yikes! This is another from Ashton:

 

Temazepam

(Restoril, Normison,

Euhypnos)

8-22 hours

 

20 mg for 10 mg of Valium

 

h Hypnotic. 

Hey benzogirl,

 

I appreciate that.

 

While desmethyldiazepam (what Tranxene is converted into) has a very long half life, the drug is short acting. In my own experience, I'd have to dose it at least three times a day if not four or more. I've read stories about other people dosing it three or four times a day.

'duration of action' vs. 'half life' Sure, it will do something after the 'duration of action' but not that much. In that sense, it was worse than diazepam.

 

I did try lorazepam early 2015 (!) which was a huge mistake. Per the GPs suggestion ..

 

At one time I used to be able to take temazepam for sleep, taken infrequently.

That drug is a hypnotic and way, way too different ... It also has a relatively short peak, and just isn't an option for tapering.

 

From what I get: clonazepam, lorazepam, alprazolam have arelatively high affinity for the alpha2, alpha 3 subunit of the GABAA receptor.

Diazepam has a relatively high affinity for the alpha 1 and alpha 5 subunit.

Compared to clonazepam, lorazepam has a relatively high affinity for the alpha 1 and alpha 5 subunit.

Alpha1=sedation, alpha 2= anxiolysis, alpha 3=anxiolysis, muscle relaxation, anticonvulsant, alpha 5= amnestic properties

 

https://wiki.tripsit.me/wiki/GABA_Receptors_and_Subunits_Info

So Liberty:

 

What are you going to do now? I just don't have an more ideas for you, and I think you have researched benzos more than I have. Seems like you are stuck in a hole. I guess I should be forever grateful that I can take and eat anything. I really think the Valium saved my sanity, as I was paradoxical to the K, and it revved me up badly. The Valium counteracted that. Now, I am sleeping far too much. I wish I could have said that two years ago, when I was awake all night. The lower I got in my K, the better I slept. I know there is a long list of benzos listed in Ashton, and I showed them to my pdoc, and he crossed most of them off, saying they were not available in the US. Now you have trouble, or are about to have trouble, in Europe. when Britian gets the go ahead to leave. My stock is so bad no that I will retire in a paper box. I think we will both be still on benzos when this happens. I'll try and research more, but I think you have it down pat. Maybe, in the end, you will have to dose 3X a day. That won't be the end of the world. I did that and was fine with it.  If you are out and about, just carry the pills with you.

 

Betsy

Yeah, I did my research ...

 

If it were easy I´d have found the solution.

 

It´s all so primitive. Librium-diazepam are low/medium potency benzos, and ´dirty drugs´.

Clonazepam is a high potency benzo (can´t go higher!).

 

Last time I tried diazepam I got insomnia aside form other issues. Someone suggested hydroxyzine, but that was so weak. I could ask for whatever else might work ? But that is not the core of the problem. The real issue is what happened the past few years, and there is no chance in hell to turn back the clock.

 

And I got a GP reluctant to prescibe anything, possibly even diazepam at this point !

 

If Xanax were not so short acting ...

Hi:

 

There is always an "if" situation. fwiw~~My Valium makes me sleep much better than my K did............

At least this thread, got many views !

I hate giving diazepam a try ...

Yes, we are all worried about you Liberty, as we can't seem to offer a good solution. So I worry about you too. Something good will happen at some point. It always does. So try and hang in there.

 

Betsy

Just something I read about Tranxene. Not a surprise, but at least it's a proper source:

 

http://www.rxlist.com/benzodiazepines-page2/drugs-condition.htm

 

'Clorazepate (Tranxene), midazolam (Versed), and triazolam (Halcion) are short-acting agents with durations of action of 3 to 8 hours.'

 

Half life isn't everything.

 

A question. Maybe I'm not reading this right.

http://phoenixrising.me/archives/12200

'4.  The use of Tranxene is the accepted method of withdrawal.  Please note that Tranxene is SHORT acting. Thus a short-acting drug is substituted for a long acting one, and then the Tranxene must be withdrawn.'

(bold) I would think that this refers to a switch from a short acting drug to a long acting drug, but it is the opposite ?

Just something I read about Tranxene. Not a surprise, but at least it's a proper source:

 

http://www.rxlist.com/benzodiazepines-page2/drugs-condition.htm

 

'Clorazepate (Tranxene), midazolam (Versed), and triazolam (Halcion) are short-acting agents with durations of action of 3 to 8 hours.'

 

Half life isn't everything.

 

A question. Maybe I'm not reading this right.

http://phoenixrising.me/archives/12200

'4.  The use of Tranxene is the accepted method of withdrawal.  Please note that Tranxene is SHORT acting. Thus a short-acting drug is substituted for a long acting one, and then the Tranxene must be withdrawn.'

(bold) I would think that this refers to a switch from a short acting drug to a long acting drug, but it is the opposite ?

 

I think this is it.

benzogirl, I'm not quite sure what you meant by that but I guess that's me ...

 

I just don't see why you would switch from a long acting drug to a short acting drug ...

I just don't think that the low potency benzos are for me ... not when I have to switch from clonazepam to something else.

benzogirl, I'm not quite sure what you meant by that but I guess that's me ...

 

I just don't see why you would switch from a long acting drug to a short acting drug ...

 

What I meant was that some people agree that switching to a shorter aating one make a C/O to a longer one. I was on both K and still on Valium, and for me, the valium acts longer.

Is that a sentence ??

 

Switching from long acting clonazepam to short acting Tranxene ... Why ? Because it is weaker ??

Is that a sentence ??

 

Switching from long acting clonazepam to short acting Tranxene ... Why ? Because it is weaker ??

 

No, I meant the opposite. Like Xanax to Valium...............

Liberty,

 

I know you've talked about this as an option but I'd thought you might be interested in this article I found - really interesting.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/is-this-a-groundbreaking-cure-for-opiates-and-benzos-addicts-10190635.html

 

I honestly think that you might be helped by Dr. Brogan's approach of working to shore you up with amino acids and some judicious supplements prior to your starting a direct taper (again) from clonazepam, maybe a slow microtaper.  You need to come off and crossing over doesn't seem to be the answer.

 

Have you ever looked at Dr. Brogans new book or the article I posted from her in "Benzos in the News" recently?  There is another good article in there where she spoke to the "everywomanover29" blogger who worked with Julia Ross.  Julia published a protocol for people coming off benzos in her book "The Mood Cure".  You might want to give this some serious thought as (a) you can do it with the benzo you are currently on (b) you don't have to go anywhere to do it (eg rehab) and © it is relatively inexpensive, all things considered.

 

At some point, I think you have to "bite the bullet" and go through some withdrawal symptoms, hellish as they may be.  I know that I did.  I was really ill but 100% committed to staying the course and getting through to the other side.  I knew the long term health consequences of staying on these drugs and my health wasn't good on them.  Yes, it was difficult, more difficult than anything I'd done.  But I knew, deep in my heart that for me the pain was worth the gain and I was determined that no matter what, I would persevere.

 

Dr. Brogan says that she works on these protocols to prepare people for their tapers.  I don't know if finances are the limiting factor here and you cannot afford to go this route.  But if you can - under these circumstances - just what do you have to lose?

 

On some level, it seems to me that you are in analysis paralysis.

 

 

Ali

Thanks ... of course, there is a difference between two tablets of zopiclone and 2 mg clonazepam ...

 

The article is very clear. It is about 'addicts'. The analogy with naltrexone is a good one !

I've actually read some case studies, and they were not convincing ...

 

That story about the Italian doc is a good one !

 

Here's a story: http://www.psy-journal.com/article/S0165-1781%2812%2900070-4/abstract

As someone else told me, after the procedure they were stabilized on clonazepam, and tapered off slowly ! Like methadone ...

 

I got no cravings ...

 

I'm not sure about amino acids. There are many things that probably could help, like amino acids, NAD+ infusions etc. But I can't spend a week for NAD infusions at about GBP 5,500 !

 

Maybe flumazenil could work as part of something, but that's not what has been proposed to me. And I never had any such issues prior to starting clonazepam ...

Liberty,

 

I was not at all suggesting that you were in any way addicted.  And of course, 15 mg zopiclone is different from 2 mg clonazepam (although you might be shocked how brutal my withdrawal has been, I don't think for a moment I got off lightly).

 

Just interesting that flumanzenil looks to be an agonist after all, not an antagonist.  So obviously, for that alone, not a cure.

 

I still think, given everything, you would be best to do a direct taper of the clonazepam, just go really slowly, perhaps a microtaper all the way.  There is no good way to go here for those of us who suffer in withdrawal.  I was too ill to post for a couple of years, in bed most days.  Somehow I think when you are desperate to get off, you'll find the strength to do this regardless.  Isn't easy.  I often think of how ill Monica Cassani was in the early days and how she is doing now at 7 years off.  Same with Laura Delano who is now 5 years off.  And Matt Samet.  Sometimes there is no way through but through.

 

I'll step away now.  I'm sure you've had your fill of advice.

 

 

Ali

Imagine when you feel so ill you want to stay in bed, but can't stand staying bed ...

And despite valium being " long acting" its not long acting for everyone. I have to dose 4x a day, and Im still not stable on it. If I had my genetic analysis done before I crossed to V I might have taken another route- but now it is what it is and as an ultra rapid metabolizer its basically a little longer than my xanax was. Im also having to taper extremely slowly because I get hit with something every day. Just because its a long acting drug for some doesnt mean it is for everyone.

Hi ,

 

  I am confused by the link, I always thought that flumazenil was used to reverse the effects of benzos like in an over dose case ? Would flumazenil put someone in withdrawal hell ?  Isn't the same as a rapid detox only worse ?

thank

KHM

KHM,

 

I think that's quite possible. That may depend on the person/situation.

Liberty:

 

I'm sorry, as I forgot to post you this yesterday. I wanted to ask you your problems with different benzos and s/x and such and I would have asked my pdoc about you yesterday. Next time. He's good with what info he gets.

 

Betsy

Clonazepam 2 mg a day, single dose, either paradoxical effects or at least a harsh effect/side effect profile.

 

Originally, I was prescribed this drug as a muscle relaxant ! Small stuff, complete overkill. 2 mg didn't seem like much.

 

There was a time I would take it during the day, because it did have sleep blocking properties. Then when tolerance/dependence set in after years and I wasn't vigilant enough, I eventually had to shift it to the late afternoon, then evening. Before/during tapering. Not the smartest move !

 

After years, when tolerance/dependence developed, my health declined and now I'm low functioning: I sort of function around the dose of clonazepam.

It's the most powerful drug there is, based on mgs (except maybe for triazolam). It does all sorts of things it didn't do in the beginning.

 

In a nutshell: it has both stimulating/sedating properties, my circadian rhythm shifts forward. In other words, mixed effects, can't split the dose without problems. I could say more, but maybe that would be too much. In my experience it's unique, no other drug like it.

 

Blood plasma level does something, the dose taken (acute effect) does something.

 

Diazepam is a classical depressant, 'calming tablet', very messy (accumulation), shorter acting. It feels more like temazepam than clonazepam ... I gets much weaker when clonazepam leaves the body. Evening doses tend to be more stimulating, daytime doses more sedating.

Tranxene: much weaker than diazepam, needs to be dosed at least three times (four times?) a day, very different drug. I decided not to 'force' the drug.

Librium: no experience, but it seems to be a diazepam-like drug.

 

I know about the theory of gradual crossover, but for various reasons I couldn't do it. For example, diazepam blocks some aspects of clonazepam. It's one drug or the other ...

 

Lorazepam: went fine in the first month, but when I developed tolerance to/dependence to the hypnotic, sedative and amnestic effects lorazepam became a crude drug (short acting) and at lower doses it was eventually impossible to tolerate. It sort of couldn't bear the clonazepam withdrawal ...

Lorazepam was closer to clonazepam than diazepam/Tranxene to clonazepam.

 

Brief trial of oxazepam: very short acting, didn't make sense.

 

I've taken hypnotic benzos in the past (temazepam, midazolam etc.), infrequently, just before bed, I slept, no problem. I didn't notice 'anything'.

 

This body has 'adjusted' (homeostasis?) to clonazepam and the other drugs just feel very differently. Sleep would be a problem at best on diazepam. It takes about two weeks to get the clonazepam out of my system and I never tried any of these other drugs (except lorazepam) for that long. When I'm fine and not tapering, the effects of clonazepam slide into the background. Last time I made a test cut of 0.25 mg time seemed to move very slowly, I was barely aware of what was going on and it was a relief when it was evening and I could take my regular dose.

I know I wouldn't have all these problems if I were still healthy and high functioning.

 

If I had to put it simply, clonazepam has stimulating properties that the other drugs don't have (except perhaps lorazepam, but much less).

 

If I had a more neutral medium/high potency benzo that wouldn't accumulate in the way diazepam does (at least medium duration of action), or if I could adjust the effects of clonazepam, or if I could get my health back ...

 

Is this clear enough ? There is always more to write ...

 

When would you see your pdoc again ?

Hi Liberty:

 

I put your post into a WORD document under your name. I will print it out and give it to my pdoc. Too bad, as I just saw him, so I won't see him for 3 weeks. I know of two BB folks who were having real trouble and he gave his advice to them and it worked out just fine, to the point where they said he is the best one out there. I'm assuming you want to know which benzo to take? We live in the US and you are off in another country. So what benzos are available in your country are very different in the US. I recall giving him Ashton's equivalency chart and he crossed off more than half on there, as they are not available in the US. I hope you can either find a good solution or can manage to wait for three weeks.

 

Betsy

Thank you, we'll see how it goes in the meantime.

 

'what benzo' you could simplify it like that if you like.

 

Alprazolam (IR, XR) , bromazepam, Librium, clobazam, clonazepam (!), Tranxene, diazepam, flunitrazepam, flurazepam (?), loprazolam, lormetazepam, lorazepam, oxazepam, nitrazepam, midazolam, brotizolam, prazepam are available. Some of those are hypnotics.