On 21mg Valium should I wait until I get lower for daily micro taper?

Im on 21mg Valium should I wait until I get to a lower dose before starting a daily micro taper? Is it smoother at this high amount? If I did would it be advised to use both pill and liquid? My doc will give me 5 or 2 mg tabs for as long as I need to help me taper. I take 3 doses per day. I feel comfortable around 5-7% dry pill cuts every 2 weeks now but if it is better I will switch.All advise will be appreciated. Thanks

Im on 21mg Valium should I wait until I get to a lower dose before starting a daily micro taper? Is it smoother at this high amount? If I did would it be advised to use both pill and liquid? My doc will give me 5 or 2 mg tabs for as long as I need to help me taper. I take 3 doses per day. I feel comfortable around 5-7% dry pill cuts every 2 weeks now but if it is better I will switch.All advise will be appreciated. Thanks

 

 

If I had to do all over again, I would definitely done a liquid taper from the very beginning.  A daily taper is much more gentle.

 

I would do a combo of liquid and tablets.

Thank you for your reply builder. I like your taper schedule and would like to do similar. Also the fact that you were on V most posts are people on K. At this time I am on 21.25mg v per day 5mg tabs 3 times per day. 1 1/2 pill morning,

1 1/4 pill 3:00pm, 1/ 1/2 pill night. Did you prepare a new batch each day? I read one guy that did it every 20 days. I cant use milk because I have to take it with me during the day. I prefer Propylene Glycol and water. If you don't mind do you have the links to the items to order that you used and an example of how to start(how much pill how much liquid). I am ready to start. Also how do I get back to this post and all of my old posts if there are no reply's. Thank you 

Actually, I had Rx liquid, but it is actually a PG solution.

 

I diluted that 9:1, so my liquid was then .1mg=1ml.  I typically made enough to last 10-14 days.  There is absolutely no need to make a new batch each day.  Just store it in a sealed jar at room temp, and protect from light.

 

You'll need a re-claimed glass jar with a screw top (olives, pickles, salad dressing, etc), a 1ml syringe and a 10 ml syringe.  A 1ooml graduated cylinder and a 50-60ml syringe are also helpful, but not required.

Just had to say I've got down to 13.5mg V.  Now I had to slow the taper down I wish I had before this.  Started on liquid micro tirationion this month alot slower.  Definitely not suffering as much.  Those tapers were just getting to brutal.  Some people do daily micro at this point I'm dropping every 2 weeks.

 

Sounds like you have a plan now.  Good going.    It seems we have to have a plan.  When I didn't I was very fearful.

 

Best to all.

Builder, I will start purchasing the items needed and do some more reading on BB to further understand how to do it. Im sure I will have more questions for you soon if you don't mind. Also to Serviving Benzo taper thank you for your input that looks like a brutal taper congratulations on your progress. Why are you dropping every 2 weeks and not daily?

Definitely thinking I should go to daily taper.  Really just wasn't sure.  Do need another syriñge to measure that small amount.  Sounds like that 8s the way t9 go easier transition it sounds.  Just learning. 

Builder, I will start purchasing the items needed and do some more reading on BB to further understand how to do it. Im sure I will have more questions for you soon if you don't mind. Also to Serviving Benzo taper thank you for your input that looks like a brutal taper congratulations on your progress. Why are you dropping every 2 weeks and not daily?

  My siggy only reflects milestones, not daily progress. 

 

 

As noted in the first line of my siggy, I did a daily taper, using tablets and liquid.

Builder, lets say I had everything I needed that you stated and I am at 21.25 mg per day of V dosing 3 times a day(7.08mg per dose) using 5mg tabs and wanted to decrease 1.25 mg in 14 days and prepare a 14 day supply of liquid. (not counting the 5mg pill I would take with each dose) what would be the step by step procedure be to prepare the liquid?Also how much liquid would I need with each dose along with my 5mg pill on day 1,2,3 ect...You also said to use a 9:1 ratio how do you come up with that. if I'm asking too much from you just let me know. Thanks 

Hi, Builder is traveling and asked me to help you.

 

It looks like you are on 21.25mg V and have 5mg pills, dosing 3x.  What you might do is keep 15mg dry and 6.25mg wet.  You want to make a 14 day supply so that is 87.5mg.

 

If you do this in your kitchen you can dissolve 18 5mg pills (90mg) into either 100ml of 80 proof vodka or 15ml PG, then top it up with water to make a total of 9000ml (9 liters).  (Yes, that is a lot of water - nearly two gallons - as you are making a two week batch).  The final strength of the liquid V will be .01mg/ml.  This means each ml will be .01mg V.

 

To dose, each dose would be 5mg dry+2.08mg (208ml) wet.

 

To cut, 1.25mg in 14 days would be .09mg a day.  This would be 9ml a day.

 

Why did I use so much water?  I think it is important to keep these water liquids at .01mg/ml, which means a lot of water is needed.

Thank you SG57. WOW that is a lot of liquid.  I ordered everything and should have it in a few days. I understand everything you said thank you for making it so clear. My concern is if I mess it up I just lost 80 pills. If I do a 7 day instead of 14 then I would just cut your numbers in half correct? Also the final liquid would still be .01mg/ml and the cuts would remain the same? One last request. I am willing to prepare a new batch daily at first just to get comfortable. What would be the procedure to do this if you don't mind. Thank You 

Thank you SG57. WOW that is a lot of liquid.  I ordered everything and should have it in a few days. I understand everything you said thank you for making it so clear. My concern is if I mess it up I just lost 80 pills. If I do a 7 day instead of 14 then I would just cut your numbers in half correct? Also the final liquid would still be .01mg/ml and the cuts would remain the same? One last request. I am willing to prepare a new batch daily at first just to get comfortable. What would be the procedure to do this if you don't mind. Thank You

 

Yes, if you did 7 days, everything would be cut in half...45mg V, 50ml vodka or 7.5ml PG, 4500ml total liquid.  The strength would be unchanged.

 

I think it is a good idea to begin with daily preparation and not get into batches just yet.  You'd need two 5mg pills, 11ml vodka or 4ml PG, and 1000ml total liquid.  You'll have a lot left over which you can save.

Is there any way to use less water?. Reading other peoples posts I was thinking I would be able to carry 1/2 oz bottles in my pocket for multiple days now its around 7 oz per dose. I cant be tied to the house and have to keep everything in my pockets when Im out. Do you have any other suggestions? What about staying with the pills and file off small increasing amounts each day using a gram scale?My doctor will give me both 5mg and 2mg tabs to help. That way I can prepare multiple days in advanced and have them in small pill holders in my pocket. Is this technique accurate? It seems like it would be the same as liquid titration.

Is there any way to use less water?. Reading other peoples posts I was thinking I would be able to carry 1/2 oz bottles in my pocket for multiple days now its around 7 oz per dose. I cant be tied to the house and have to keep everything in my pockets when Im out. Do you have any other suggestions? What about staying with the pills and file off small increasing amounts each day using a gram scale?My doctor will give me both 5mg and 2mg tabs to help. That way I can prepare multiple days in advanced and have them in small pill holders in my pocket. Is this technique accurate? It seems like it would be the same as liquid titration.

 

I'm not comfortable making making water liquids above .01mg/ml.  2mg pills would help.  If you got the pharma liquid you'd be all set.  The scale can work for V too.  2mg pills are best for this.  There is also Ora Plus and compounding pharmacies.

SG, I will research everything you suggested and make a final decision soon. I'm leaning towards dry daily taper using gram scale with 5 and 2mg tabs. Seems so much easier to calculate. For now I just went down to 20mg after 7 days (1.25mg cut) yesterday and am doing good. Thanks for all of your help. To SBT it seems like your as confused as I am. I hope you get a system figured out that works for you. I'm thinking pretty clear now but I would hate to make wrong calculations later down the line IF my brain gets foggy.

SG57 If I went with Ora Plus do you know how many daily doses I could make up with 100ml?Is water mixed in as well? Do you know if builder used Ora Plus I saw an old post where he inquired about it. If not did he use the high amounts of water that you recommended to me? I'm still trying to decide the best taper plan. Thanks 

SG57 If I went with Ora Plus do you know how many daily doses I could make up with 100ml?Is water mixed in as well? Do you know if builder used Ora Plus I saw an old post where he inquired about it. If not did he use the high amounts of water that you recommended to me? I'm still trying to decide the best taper plan. Thanks

 

The high amounts of water I recommended were only to remain safe with the solubility of V in water.  If you use Ora Plus that won't be an issue.  Look up Bart and eliz...I'm pretty sure they both used Ora Plus.  They both had very successful microtapers.

 

At your dose, and with a 1ml syringe, you could work with a liquid strength as high as 1mg/ml to save on liquid.  Or you could just go with .1mg/ml. Or you could go with anything in between, but the math would not be as easy.

 

You have three doses and 5mg pills so I would still keep 15mg dry and liquify 6.25mg.  For a 14-day supply of 1mg/ml strength you would mix 18 5mg pills (90mg) with 90ml Ora Plus. Each 1ml=1mg V so your 6.25mg dose would be 6.25ml.  Split it three ways to get 2.08ml per dose.  So each day would be...

 

15mg dry+6.25mg wet in three equal doses of 5mg dry+2.08mg (2.08ml) wet

 

Remember to keep the liquid mixed.  Ora Plus suspends the V, it does not dissolve.

Ok this sounds like the best option. I am going to order Ora Plus and see how it goes. Right now my daily doses are not the same. I take 1 1/4 5mg pill in the morning 1 1/4 3:00 pm and 1 1/2 at night. I am going to cut the night down to 1 1/4 in a few days then I will have an equal amount to work with for all three daily doses. Is there a calculator or spreadsheet that I could just plug my doses  and the % that I want to drop each day to give me my daily amounts. Or an easy formula to make these calculations as time goes on and I modify my taper?Also you said to keep the solution mixed would I just shake the bottle each time before using? Do you know if it has to be refrigerated? Thank You.

Ok this sounds like the best option. I am going to order Ora Plus and see how it goes. Right now my daily doses are not the same. I take 1 1/4 5mg pill in the morning 1 1/4 3:00 pm and 1 1/2 at night. I am going to cut the night down to 1 1/4 in a few days then I will have an equal amount to work with for all three daily doses. Is there a calculator or spreadsheet that I could just plug my doses  and the % that I want to drop each day to give me my daily amounts. Or an easy formula to make these calculations as time goes on and I modify my taper?Also you said to keep the solution mixed would I just shake the bottle each time before using? Do you know if it has to be refrigerated? Thank You.

 

Yes, Ora Plus needs to be kept mixed.  Check out what Bart and eliz say about using it.  I have never used it.  I don't think it needs refrigeration, but again check with the others.  For keeping track, a spiral notebook works well.  Each line is a day and each page is about a month.

SG57 I confirmed that Ora Plus does not need to be refrigerated. I read Eliz's method and think I have a good understanding now. I want to start after next drop when I have equal doses. Can you make sure my math is correct. I will be at 18.75mg V dosing 3x per day with 5mg tabs. I will take 15mg (3 5mg pills) dry with 3.75 liquid (3 1.25ml liquid). I will make a 14 day supply by mixing 11 5mg pills (55mg) with 55ml Ora plus (1ml=1mg V). I will cut .09 mg/ml per day. On day one I will take a 5mg pill with 1.25ml liquid 3x per day. Day two 1.16 ml, day three 1.07ml, day four .98ml... to drop 1.25mg in 14 days. Does my math look correct to you? 

SG57 I confirmed that Ora Plus does not need to be refrigerated. I read Eliz's method and think I have a good understanding now. I want to start after next drop when I have equal doses. Can you make sure my math is correct. I will be at 18.75mg V dosing 3x per day with 5mg tabs. I will take 15mg (3 5mg pills) dry with 3.75 liquid (3 1.25ml liquid). I will make a 14 day supply by mixing 11 5mg pills (55mg) with 55ml Ora plus (1ml=1mg V). I will cut .09 mg/ml per day. On day one I will take a 5mg pill with 1.25ml liquid 3x per day. Day two 1.16 ml, day three 1.07ml, day four .98ml... to drop 1.25mg in 14 days. Does my math look correct to you?

 

That all looks fine to me.  It might be a good idea to begin with a single day batch until you get it down and it becomes routine.  Also, .09mg is an aggressive place to begin cutting...14% a month.  I usually recommend about half that to start.  It may be you can handle it, but I would not begin there.  Better to begin low and try for immediate success and get acclimated to the new process.  As you go lower you will eventually need to cut smaller so the 1mg=1ml liquid strength will need to be made weaker.  But for now I think you are set.

SG57 I confirmed that Ora Plus does not need to be refrigerated. I read Eliz's method and think I have a good understanding now. I want to start after next drop when I have equal doses. Can you make sure my math is correct. I will be at 18.75mg V dosing 3x per day with 5mg tabs. I will take 15mg (3 5mg pills) dry with 3.75 liquid (3 1.25ml liquid). I will make a 14 day supply by mixing 11 5mg pills (55mg) with 55ml Ora plus (1ml=1mg V). I will cut .09 mg/ml per day. On day one I will take a 5mg pill with 1.25ml liquid 3x per day. Day two 1.16 ml, day three 1.07ml, day four .98ml... to drop 1.25mg in 14 days. Does my math look correct to you?

 

That all looks fine to me.  It might be a good idea to begin with a single day batch until you get it down and it becomes routine.  Also, .09mg is an aggressive place to begin cutting...14% a month.  I usually recommend about half that to start.  It may be you can handle it, but I would not begin there.  Better to begin low and try for immediate success and get acclimated to the new process.  As you go lower you will eventually need to cut smaller so the 1mg=1ml liquid strength will need to be made weaker.  But for now I think you are set.

 

also. ..I forgot to mention the switch to liquid can cause symptoms so it is a good idea to hold off cutting until you feel ready.