How much accuracy needed for clonazepam water taper?

I have been holding at .25 mg clonazepam for 3 weeks and am about to continue my water taper.  I am new here, and so far as I can tell, what I have been doing is not the conventional way. I need advise/criticism.

 

Currently, I suspend my .5mg pill in 400 ml of water and then use a syringe to put 50 ml into 8 tall baby food size jars.  This gives me 2 days of 4 doses. To taper by 5%, I would add 20 ml to the original 400 ml, create my 50 ml doses, and throw the extra 20 ml away.  This process (with different amounts, of course) has gotten me where I am.

 

My concern is that the individual doses are visibly different if I look down through the little jars on a dark surface.  After the powder settles and I swirl it a bit to congregate in the center, you can see difference in quantity.  So I reorder the jars to make sure  that I have two groups of 4 jars where the the two groups (2 days) look to add up to about the same.  Since I take 4 doses a day, I’ m not to worried about a difference from dose to dose during the day.  But should I be concerned that one day might be somewhat larger than the other?  Over 2 days, it is of course, evened out.  So far, this has worked.  But will it be a problem as the amount of drug goes lower and lower. Or am I worried over nothing?

 

Also, would I be better off to put the pill in 60 ml of water and fill my 60 ml syringe to squirt out 2 30 ml jars (2 days) which I would add water to and then make into 4 doses for each day?

 

Thanks

 

The bottom line is you are making it work.  How much liquid do you need?  That depends on the syringe you are using.  With a 1ml and 10ml syringe you can do fine with a .01mg/ml liquid, i.e., .5mg in 50ml.  Instead of suspending the K in water, you could first dissolve it in a little PG or alcohol, then use the water.  This will make a solution and the K will not fall to the bottom.  The amount of water you are using is okay, but not necessary.

Thanks very much for your reply.

 

I would love to try alcohol or PG, but this Benzo Buddies article says it doesn't work, so I was afraid to try.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=89360.0

 

"This method allows anyone (except for Klonopin users) to accurately measure as small a dose of benzo as they’d care to. (Unlike other benzos, Klonopin isn’t soluble in alcohol, but necessity is the grandmother of invention. Plenty of people are tapering from Klonopin successfully.)"

 

What do you think? Is this article too cautious?  The generic for my clonazepam says SAND on the bottle, which I think means it is manufactured by Sandoz, if that makes any difference.

Thanks very much for your reply.

 

I would love to try alcohol or PG, but this Benzo Buddies article says it doesn't work, so I was afraid to try.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=89360.0

 

"This method allows anyone (except for Klonopin users) to accurately measure as small a dose of benzo as they’d care to. (Unlike other benzos, Klonopin isn’t soluble in alcohol, but necessity is the grandmother of invention. Plenty of people are tapering from Klonopin successfully.)"

 

What do you think? Is this article too cautious?  The generic for my clonazepam says SAND on the bottle, which I think means it is manufactured by Sandoz, if that makes any difference.

 

Ah, that was Aweigh who said that too.  He's very good with liquids.  But he is wrong about Klonopin.  It does dissolve in both alcohol and PG and many here on BB are now doing it.  Here's the data we have...

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.msg1861205#msg1861205

 

Here's an example of a manufacturer (Rosemont) using alcohol to dissolve the K in their liquid K product (section 6.1)...

 

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/25746

Thank you, SG57.

 

So, what would you recommend I do with a .5 mg pill to make 2 days of .25 mg, 4 doses per day.

 

Would I still see any powder (is the powder filler or drug?).

A .5mg pill weighs ~170mg, but only .5mg is K.  That's .3%.  In other words, your pills are 99.7% inert fillers/binders.  This is what you see.

 

For .5mg pills and a .25mg dose I'd dissolve the whole pill in 3ml of either PG or alcohol (80 proof or higher), then top it up to 50ml with water to make .01mg/ml liquid K.  This is a two-day supply.  25ml is .25mg and you can then divide it four ways easily.  Use 1ml and 10ml syringes to measure and cut, and get four glass jars with lids.  That's about all you need.

Do I need to ease into this, as in change one dose at a time to be sure it works. (Like moving to valium from K) Or, since I already water tamper, am I good to go.  Do you know of any folks that have had any trouble?

 

I guess I'm a little scared.

 

Thanks for your knowledge and sharing it.

I'd think you could just do it since you already are on liquid.  It is practically the same as what you are doing now, except for a bit of solvent...3ml is not much at all and you'd only be ingesting half of it a day.  And if you made a four or six-day batch it would be even less.  It should be fine...there is little difference.

Although unconventional, could I put the pill in 3 ml of 80 proof vodka and then add 397 ml of water and continue with my old system as described in my first post.  The only difference would be that the pill is dissolved in vodka instead of suspended.

 

Thanks

Sure, absolutely (that wasn't a vodka joke ).  I try to use the least liquid, but there is no harm in using more.

Thanks,  I am more comfortable with the larger ml numbers because a 1 ml error is a much less crucial with one pill in 400 ml than with one pill in 40 ml.  I'm weak on the manual dexterity side of this.

 

Also, not knowing the science, it seems to me that suspension and taking a pill with a glass of water is very similar. Is there a theory about why people need the slow transition? On the other hand, dissolving in vodka seems really different - a chemical change might even take place as the substances combine.  Do you know any more about this?

400ml is fine, but I think it is overkill on accuracy.  And as higher amounts of liquid are used bigger syringes are needed, which negates the increase in accuracy to some extent.  But it will work fine if that is the way you are comfortable with.

 

That's a good observation about suspending and dissolving.  Insightful.  No one knows why the switch to liquid sometimes causes symptoms.  It's a mystery.  Could it be just expectation?  I've given up trying to explain it.

 

but there is no chemical reaction going on.  We can be sure of that.  Dissolving is not a reaction.  Also, the manufacturers make these drugs in liquid form and we are basically doing a simplified version of what they do.

Thank you so much for being there and helping people like me.

 

I may have some questions about the numbers in my taper itself, but I think that would be a separate subject and will start a new post if I need help with that.

 

Again, thanks!

I dropped the pill in 3 ml of vodka.  After 15 minutes of mixing, there are still particles suspended in the vodka. 

 

I have mixed in the water and the vodka is invisible, but the suspension looks about the same as it did with no vodka.

 

You are saying that these are the fillers and binders I see, and I can safely ignore them.  Obviously, I am paranoid about pacing the walls 3 days after this switch when the half life issues would kick in.

SG57,

 

I have been dissolving .25 of Klonopin in 200ml of water.  Should I use 1 or 2 ml of vodka or PG? 

 

Thank you,

 

LaHenz81

SG57,

 

I have been dissolving .25 of Klonopin in 200ml of water.  Should I use 1 or 2 ml of vodka or PG? 

 

Thank you,

 

LaHenz81

 

1ml of either vodka or PG will work for .25mg.  I usually use at least 2ml just to have more liquid around, as 1ml is so tiny.  If you used 250ml the numbers might be easier since your mls and mgs would only differ by where the decimal place is... 1ml=.001mg.

Thank you so much SG57

Hi SG57

I responded to myself, so you may not have seen my post 13 request for assurance on the particles.  Also, if you would, how long can the vodka be stored.  Does it evaporate?

 

thanks

 

 

Also, not knowing the science, it seems to me that suspension and taking a pill with a glass of water is very similar.

  That's absolutely true.

 

But...when you take a pill, you get 100% of the med, but when you extract liquid from a suspension, you have no idea what you get.

 

 

You are saying that these are the fillers and binders I see, and I can safely ignore them. 

  That's correct.

I dropped the pill in 3 ml of vodka.  After 15 minutes of mixing, there are still particles suspended in the vodka. 

 

I have mixed in the water and the vodka is invisible, but the suspension looks about the same as it did with no vodka.

 

You are saying that these are the fillers and binders I see, and I can safely ignore them.  Obviously, I am paranoid about pacing the walls 3 days after this switch when the half life issues would kick in.

 

Thanks for the nudge...I did not see that post.

 

When the pill is in the vodka it should completely break down into a zillion pieces.  If this happens you are all set as the K will be in contact with the vodka and can dissolve with some mixing/swishing.  I know it can be concerning as the rest of the pill seems to not dissolve much, but the K does dissolve.  If the pill does not thoroughly break apart don't trust it.  You'd need to find a way to get it to break down, like crushing with a mortar and pestle.

I dropped the pill in 3 ml of vodka.  After 15 minutes of mixing, there are still particles suspended in the vodka. 

 

 

  Just remember, only a tiny protion of your pill is actually K.  A .5mg K tablet might weigh 150mg, so only .5mg will be med, and 149.5mg will be "other stuff".  The K will dissolve, some of the other stuff will not.

How long can the vodka-water mixture be stored in the fridge? Does the vodka evaporate faster than water?

 

thank you

How long can the vodka-water mixture be stored in the fridge? Does the vodka evaporate faster than water?

 

thank you

 

I'd keep it out of the fridge and at room temperature.  Although it would likely be fine in the fridge, the colder temperature will lower the solubility and we don't know by how much - why take the risk.

 

Evaporation of the vodka can occur.  You'd have to ask around to find out if it is a problem when it is alone in the jar in the dissolving phase.  I would not think so, but I don't know.  Once it is in the water it does not matter anymore.

"the colder temperature will lower the solubility"

 

How close is .5mg clonazepam in 3 ml 80 proof vodka to the solubility limit?  I have no issues with alcohol, so could easily up the amount a ml or 2 to be safe.  I am asking, btw, about storing the final individual doses, 4 per day, that I will be making every other day. I thought the fridge because it can get hot in summer.