Author Topic: The Long Hold Support Group  (Read 872926 times)

[Buddie]

Re: The Long Hold Support Group
« Reply #49380 on: March 23, 2021, 05:15:28 pm »
Sorry folks l keep forgetting to tell you all l am finally finished my taper so l am off the diazepam since the 10 th of January.Nothing to report much the same as any cut so[...] with my taper wouldn't change a thing.lt has never been easy sadly however l got there and so will you all.love and hugs [...].X

Congratulations!!! Always so encouraging to see someone make it to the finish line :thumbsup:

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Long Hold Support Group
« Reply #49381 on: March 23, 2021, 05:33:51 pm »
Thank you for all the support ,

But I think I canít make it , sometime I think I would rather be dead than to be in this awful situation...

How to not add anxiety on top of this ? I donít know how long it will take to stabilize and if I will ever stabilize .

Im sorry but my mood never been so low in my life Iím sinking into depression I think , Iím too weak to do this  :'(

Carla- I had the same thoughts....Especially in the beginning when I screwed up my c/o from k to v and was in a world of hurt with no sleep, not eating, shaking, benzo flu, and migraines....I part of me was okay if I died ( I wasnít suicidal) I just didnít think I could [...] on.....I should have held but I didnít know better.....I just kept pushing through...somehow I kind of ďstabilizedĒ, I had a few windows over 4 months, and then at 10 mg, I just ď crashedĒ again.  I didnít know how I could possibly [...] on.  That was when I realized (after reading lots of stories too) I had to hold and [...] stabilized.  I really had to force myself to remain calm and focus on my breathing.  This was a constant battle.  Also remaining ďgratefulĒ, constantly reminding myself of what I had to be grateful for, and that ďknowingĒ this WILL PASS!  Almost willing it into existence.  Like serious mind control.  So many times, in my mind I though, I canít do this....but then I would quickly remind myself, I HAVE to do this, AND I CAN. So many others have gone before me and have done it too.  That really has given me so much [...]. 

 :hug:

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Long Hold Support Group
« Reply #49382 on: March 23, 2021, 05:45:25 pm »
[...],

Thank you for your answer. Are you French ? I am

How long did it take you to stabilize from your mistake? I [...] I will feel like my pre crash....I started to updose to my last dose 2 days ago. I am at my week 6 since I crashed and the last week it [...] getting worst thatís why Iím losing [...] , I donít know what [...] happening...

I canít [...] on like this... tomorrow i have an appointment with a psychiatrist

It [...] very difficult to keep calm and not adding stress

Thank you for your precious help <3
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Long Hold Support Group
« Reply #49383 on: March 23, 2021, 07:56:52 pm »
Carla- No I am not French...I have a little French from my maternal grandmotherís side (maybe more from otherís, doing a DNA test soon).  It took me about a month to stabilize.  I am just curious if you went on a longer acting benzo if that would help you.  I remember reading someoneís post about how it took them 6 weeks to stabilize and then they continued to hold for 3 months.  So maybe you are about to turn the corner.

Iíll check back in later...running out the door.  My son hurt his shoulder in football..UGH..

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Long Hold Support Group
« Reply #49384 on: March 23, 2021, 10:15:24 pm »
Sorry folks l keep forgetting to tell you all l am finally finished my taper so l am off the diazepam since the 10 th of January.Nothing to report much the same as any cut so[...] with my taper wouldn't change a thing.lt has never been easy sadly however l got there and so will you all.love and hugs [...].X

YAAAYYYYYY [...]!!!  :yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee: :yippee:

This [...] a reason to celebrate! Congratulations you did it!
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Long Hold Support Group
« Reply #49385 on: March 23, 2021, 10:55:12 pm »
Hi [...],

I see in your description that when you started your first [...] taper you failed.

Did you went back to a full dose and tried again?


I am actually failing with my taper and looking for stories of people who started from the beginning.

Im in a very dark place right now.

[...] you can answer .

Carole
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Long Hold Support Group
« Reply #49386 on: March 23, 2021, 10:56:24 pm »
Propaganda List by [...]

"Hey all.  I'm not sure how long ago this was posted but it [...] definitely helpful to review when needed.  [...] you all are having a great day!  :)--V





 "Yes, most of the time if people hold long enough, eventually they do come to feel better. 

It can take a long time, especially if they've been tapering too fast and have gotten ahead of their body's ability to rebalance itself.  Sometimes people need to just stop tapering and take some number of months for [...], before starting to taper again.
 
In general, I hold my taper whenever I feel my symptoms ramp up at all, and I hold until they settle down. Periodically I will do a longer hold just to give my brain some extra [...] time. So far every time I've done that I've had a really great period afterwards, several really good months, even once I start tapering again.
 
That's how I approach holds. However, I'm on a very slow, stable, regulated taper. People who are in more trouble usually need to hold longer, and usually don't [...] relief as quickly as I do."
 
"Basically, holds are how we give our brains/bodies time to catch up and heal and re-establish some kind of homeostasis during the tapering process.  So when to do them and for how long [...] very variable and depends on the person, the taper, their symptoms, their history, etc."

"I highly doubt that holding will harm you, but I've seen people who've taken very long to recover after getting messed up during too-aggressive or unstable tapers. It doesn't look all that different (in terms of symptoms) from when people CT or taper all the way off a med too harshly and end up in protracted withdrawal. It's just that people end up in that same shape without actually having come all the way off the meds."

"If you've thrown yourself into chaotic withdrawal syndrome by ill-advised experimentation (or poor advice), holding [...] probably preferable to further decreasing or quitting altogether.

You need to bring some order to the chaos. If you hold at

one level (of all your drugs), you are at least giving your nervous system some stability. Given the constants -- which still may be causing adverse effects, etc. -- your nervous system will regroup over time.

Once you see some consistency in symptom pattern, you can carefully adjust dosage to see what will help."

"If you have been tapering systematically and run into a rough spot, holding can help you [...] past it. At least, when you hold, you can track your symptom pattern and see what the balance of waves and windows might be. If windows are gradually getting longer and more frequent -- a positive sign -- your nervous system [...] adjusting to the cumulative decreases and you will eventually be in a position to continue tapering.

If during a hold the windows pattern [...] not promising, a slight updose may be called for."

"For me, I hate these meds so much, that holding feels like they're winning somehow.

I keep trying to tell myself that it's ME that's winning, as I heal. Because I know that I heal and adapt during holds. I can feel it happening. If I hold long enough, I [...] to where I'm[...] pretty good. I encourage you to allow yourself the experience of holding long enough to feel good, even if that takes months. It's SO encouraging to [...] to that point. I cling to the memories of those times, the thoughts I find myself thinking (life [...] good, there's [...] in my future); the way I feel strong and able to deal with stress and extra activity; and the way that even with these tiny increments, when I hold long enough to let myself feel the [...], each step I feel even better than the one before. I can tell that I'm emerging from the damage these drugs have done to me."

"Over the course of my journey, I have learned many things.  First and foremost would be to taper slowly.  Have patience and donít let the calendar determine when you will be off of your medication.  Hold when necessary for as long as necessary to maintain your stability as much as possible. 

Face your fears and they will diminish or disappear.  Keep yourself busy with activities and donít dwell on your symptoms.

Symptoms donít last forever; windows of clarity occur.  Cherish the windows and know that more will come and that they are a sign of [...]."

"The first three things anyone needs to learn about tapering benzos:

1. Slow slow slow.

2. A sense of[...] panicked and like you need to rush and do something-something-anything-anything about your withdrawal symptoms [...] actually a classic symptom of withdrawal itself. It's very important to learn to resist that urge. The best thing you [...] [...] usually nothing at all, just support your body's [...] by good diet, gentle exercise, meditative breathing if possible, and a regular schedule of sleep/wake/eat etc.

3. There's a lag time with benzo tapers. You can make a cut and do okay, make another cut and do okay, and so on, and then all at once it will catch up with you cumulatively and you can really hit the wall. It's much better to start slow and small with small cuts and long breaks in between cuts, until you have a chance to see how the withdrawal symptoms come and [...] over time. It's typical with benzo tapers for there to be days when you feel great and you're sure you're all better, followed by worse days, back and forth. So see #1, don't push your luck. With practice and experience you'll learn the best pace for you. But it's a lot easier if you don't overdo it and crash--it can really set you back to do that."

"Symptoms are worsened by anxiety and fear." - Prof Ashton

"You can return to normal health." - Prof Ashton

"You must keep a positive attitude, be courageous." - Prof Ashton

"Allow time for your nervous system to recover. It will."- Prof Ashton

"The key to everything [...] patience. You [...] the chicken by hatching the egg, not by smashing it."

"The secret of patience [...] doing something else in the meanwhile"

"Start small and conservative. Start with a small cut and a long hold. Don't try to follow a calendar schedule; follow your body's schedule instead, by observing your own symptoms.
 
Keep a daily journal of symptoms (ranking them on a numerical scale of 1 to 5 or something like that). Don't trust yourself to remember the way your symptoms wax and wane--the drugs and the withdrawal actually interfere with our ability to reliably perceive patterns. (Trust me on this.  It's pretty much universal. Your mind will lie to you.)
 
Write it down each day and you'll see the patterns emerge.
 
Do a few small cuts and long holds this way until you have a feel for how your body [...] going to respond to cuts and how the withdrawal symptoms are going to unfold and play out and resolve for you.
 
There are often delayed effects from a cut that don't show up right away, and if you taper too fast, those "lag time" symptoms can add up and hit hard, and it's too late to slow down because you already made the cuts. So take it slow with long holds, and allow the full pattern to play out, so that you become familiar with it.
 
Collect data this way for two or three months. Once you have a track record, you can then decide if you want to try larger cuts and/or shorter holds.
 
Experiment conservatively until you find your optimal rate of taper.
 
This way you will become the expert on your own withdrawal process and you'll be able to tailor it to your own needs and your own life changes."

"In order to [...] my head around the prospects of a really slow taper I have to work through what it represents to me, the things I say to myself that encourage me to [...] faster. I know that I have more trouble with the holds than the increments. I think I view the hold as disempowering, as an expression of me 'needing' the medication, that I am beholden to it, its dictating the terms. This isnt a very positive relationship to the hold! Rather than a barrier to being off, I need to see it as an important strategy to success and a choice I am making. I also think that not holding long enough hasn't enabled me to have the 'good spells' and the rest I need to recover and keep going, so, being really tired, I've then wanted to speed things up, to [...] to the other side. My experience tells me to listen to my body and that getting my head around it [...] important."

"What does stabilizing mean after withdrawal syndrome has kicked in?

To me, it means not being debilitated by your withdrawals, so that activities of daily life are disrupted.Holding your dose and monitoring it (a journal [...] a good idea) and your instincts will tell you when you feel strong enough."

"Most people are stable on psychotropic medications before their first taper, so there are no withdrawal symptoms. Holding helps to stabilize withdrawal symptoms that are acquired while tapering, going off CT, etc. The meaning of stabilization does not change with the drug. (And the steadier the dose in your system, the more stable you will be and so there are no resulting withdrawal symptoms) Withdrawal symptoms include those which are 'physical' as well as neuroemotions, the latter experienced as emotional while they are actually physical in origin. When withdrawal symptoms subside, your quality of life [...] better as your ability to cope with the daily demands of living improves.

So stable means few or no withdrawal symptoms, whether physical or emotional. The concept of stabilization does not refer to lifestyle issues, though those are obviously impacted when people feel unwell. Most people stabilize when they hold (sometimes for as long as several months), and if symptoms do not entirely remit during that time, they become more manageable."

"I'm doing a micro taper and I adjust my cuts and holds according to life stressors and how I'm[...]. Seems like I generally feel the cuts within two to four days after making them, and then I hold for however long it takes (usually a week or two, with the micro cuts). I definitely do stabilize and feel better, although if I know I have a period of time with not much stress coming up, I will push it and make a couple more small cuts before I'm fully at my best. I know I'm going to feel crappy for a while as a result but I know I will hold and it will pass."
 
"When I hold for a longer period I am always rewarded with a spell of[...] pretty good, which lasts even after I start cutting again, for a while.
 
I have always felt better after holds and I have never done well with the "keep cutting even if you're suffering" approach, although some people apparently do okay with that. As always, our own bodies are the experts."

" I can only speak for myself. If i held, i know what would happen. If i made a mistake cutting, then all bets are off. I think people are just afraid of making a mistake and then getting the hammer for it. Recovering from a devastating mistake can be terrifying."

"I have had to make 3 months holds, or even longer, before I could make some progress again. a few weeks may be too little? be patient."

"I had heard about "holding" but I only did it for 3 or 4 or 5 months and then dropped again because I didn't think it worked.  However, I now believe IT DOES WORK - I JUST NEEDED TO HOLD LONGER!  The first 6 month hold I did I saw improvement in many symptoms, however about half a dozen got worse, so I dropped.
 
The next 6 month hold on a lower dose and a slower taper, saw improvement in all symptoms (to mild) with some EVEN GOING AWAY FOR THE FIRST TIME IN NEARLY 5 YEARS!  I felt almost normal for the first time in I don't now how long, it was amazing.  I had some good days and I even went shopping for the first time in 5 years!
 
This was AN AMAZING REVELATION to me because with the next drop, they all got worse again.  This proved to me that all this [...] definitely w/d... can you believe I still sometimes wonder and doubt (plus other people seem to question it also).  I feel a real calm now about that aspect and somehow seeing that proof/evidence has helped me a lot!  I didn't know anything about holds, let alone long ones, but I do now."

"I held for 10 months at the bottom of my benzo taper with a good result.  I'm the hold queen, and firmly believe in erring on the side of holding too long. I think that tapering when we are symptomatic contributes to needless suffering.  I realize some people have paradoxical reactions from benzos, and need to taper in the face of WD symptoms, but they are far fewer than those who benefit from prolonged holds times... several months and more."

"A benzo cut can cause an uptick in your withdrawal symptoms, and it may take longer to stabilize once you take a  cut.  I once held for 9 months and this helped me considerably.   tapering slowly has taken time, but my quality of life was only adversely impacted for the first 2 or 3 months."

"1 month may seem like a long time but it's not. On the other hand 2 mg of Klonopin [...] a lot. When I see how fast people went it usually gives me an idea of how long it will take for them to stabilise. In my particular situation I waited for 4 months (with what I know today I would advise anyone in my situation even longer hold).
 
I believe in the [...] power of long holds. When we are struggling even minute cuts will make us feel awful. But if we allow our brain to regrow itself through holding subsequent cuts will be less painful."

"If I were in your shoes I would actually say, hold not just until you don't feel so terrible any more, but hold until you start to have consistent periods of actually[...] good. It could take a few more months but I would wait as long as it takes. This far along it's not going to make you more dependent on the benzo or cause more damage than has already been caused. And if you treat your brain well and give it the stability and gentle care that it needs, at your age, it's going to bounce back beautifully. Even at my advanced age my brain [...] bouncing back--after 20 years on meds! So I feel pretty confident that right now it's more important to handle your precious brain gently and lovingly than it [...] to hurry.
 
It's not a delay--it's a strategic retreat and rebuild. If you [...] to where your nervous system [...] really stable and strong, that will give you a whole new base to taper from, and tapering will [...] much better. You'll have some minimal symptoms after each cut but you'll hold until those settle down. You'll be able to [...] on with your life even while tapering rather than trying to [...] through the taper so you can [...] back to your life, if that makes sense. This [...] a race that [...] won by the turtles every time, if "win" means "[...] off the meds forever and recover fully."

"Tolerance withdrawal" [...] a phrase that's tossed around a lot and usually, in my opinion, used wrongly. In fact most of the time I think it's referring to prolonged withdrawal symptoms. In fact I don't think you can really use the phrase "tolerance withdrawal" during a taper, because by definition tolerance withdrawal [...] something that happens when you're taking steady ongoing doses of a benzo.

However, Klonopin [...] kind of notorious for causing a kind of delayed withdrawal with holds that might be related to the tolerance withdrawal phenomenon."

"Yeah, the way "tolerance withdrawal' [...] bandied about on the benzo boards (try saying that five times really fast) drives me nuts. Especially since like you said, it's usually used to scare people into keeping cutting faster, which [...] almost always the opposite of what they need to be doing. VERY rarely [...] "just keep cutting" the right answer. Drives me nuts. Feels like I'm always the voice in the wilderness on that one. People [...] too fast, [...] into withdrawal, hold for a short time; their symptoms [...] worse (unrelated to the hold, it's just ongoing withdrawal from going too fast before); they [...] told they're in "tolerance withdrawal" and they need to start cutting again. Yet when someone CTs and has prolonged withdrawal for months or years, nobody says it's "tolerance withdrawal", because obviously that's impossible if you aren't taking the drug. What's called tolerance withdrawal [...] almost always just plain delayed withdrawal symptoms which are pretty much universal with benzos. Benzos are notoriously up and down and nonlinear and long and drawn out, in withdrawal. Okay, thanks for letting me rant about that. The whole thing drives me nuts (she says for the [...]). "

"Been 10 days since I began stabilizing, so knock on wood, it seems I have for the most part, won this round by holding, as almost all symptoms across the board have dissipated by 85-90%, even the most minor (tinnitus).

Thanks to all who encouraged me to hold out and resist the temptation to further updosing (or going with my doc's advice, albeit well-intentioned) as I was right on the verge of doing so out of desperation to seek relief.

Withdrawal [...] indeed real and until you [...] through it long enough and then stabilize in time, even the smartest minds, physicians included, can be misled by the insidious nature of w/d into making the wrong assumptions as to causation, suggesting a course of treatment that fits a generalized paradigm, but that usually runs counter to our individual genetics and neurochemistry, especially in those whose receptors have become sensitized to any degree from past repeated "insults" to the CNS (maybe not as acute to suggest a case of kindling, but similar). Hello, medical mismanagement!

Bottom line: patience and giving time to listen to what our body [...] telling us. The clue: if you're having windows of any length, [...] this not a good indicator of your body trying to HEAL? So, I powered through the downtime and let it heal. The more acute the symptoms, the more sensitized the receptors, thus more time required to cool the hyper-excitatory response to discontinuance of a med or meds from which the brain has become habituated.

Well, I [...] others can benefit from my little experience in giving them [...] as well. Now I know how to read this better in the future, as each setback [...] like a little science experiment and an educational course from which to listen and learn, downright frightening, horrid and unpleasant as they may be. "

"The symptoms this last month have been anything but linear - a total rollercoaster, with some hours during the days better than others, and some worse - as this has progressed - and I realize this [...] part of the process. There [...] a ramp up period, followed by a small reprieve in symptoms, then it's starts to ramp up again, a perpetual ebb and flow day in, day out. So it's been impossible to judge the progression. In fact, the last few days, I feel like my symptoms are up a notch in severity which feeds into my fears and reinforces my doc's position that unless we "[...] the symptoms back under control" by updosing, my condition will worsen.
 
I do now agree looking back that the although the cuts were small, the frequency was likely too fast and lag time came on like a freight train. I can see my doc shaking his head in disbelief at all that, but like you said, what can we expect?"

"It takes as long as it takes.

Also, one thing I've noticed with benzo tapering, [...] that when I'm going a bit too fast I tend to [...] into this "rush rush hurry [...] faster [...] off this stuff" frame of mind, which tends to cause me to actually cut even faster. I've posted about this here and there and found other people are having the same thing. Something about the anxiety, the way the withdrawal activates our limbic system, something like that, seems to cause us to feel a kind of urgency that actually makes us do the opposite of what we need to do at that point.

So now, when I [...] that "hurry up and taper fast" feeling, I try to remember to stop and think about it, and make myself slow down or hold for a while if I can. 

Also want to reiterate, because it needs saying all the time and not [...] people are saying it:  Even a microtaper requires intermittent holds with no reductions, no cuts at all, for a while."

"Better to err on this side of safety. In reading thousands of posts, I never heard of anyone who suffered for holding too much/long, only for too little."

"There's some mild weirdness going on in my head and legs, which I'm taking as a sign that there's still some instability going on. I've heard people claim you CAN hold for too long, but I don't really believe that. I mean, we've been "holding" on these drugs for years and, apart from the usual side effects, nothing awful happened because of it.."

" Your CNS [...] very sensitive to these drugs.  Please listen to your body..  Do not taper until all or most of your symptoms have resolved.  If I were in your position.. knowing what I do now, I'd plan on holding for 6 months, then starting to taper at 5% a month.  If you are okay with that pace for 2 months, you could then try going to 10% a month.
 
As long as you are having withdrawal symptoms, your body [...] acting as it still has the drug.  So it's possible to actually [...] the drug out of your system sooner, but have your body reacting to it longer.. so, your body ends up responding to the drug longer than if you came off gradually and preserved your quality of life.
 
[...].. if you have a 'window'.. a sustained period of time that lasts, say 2 months, you could think about tapering.. but if you think in terms of say, 6 months, you might do better by removing a constant temptation."
 
"While I understand the desire to [...] off these drugs fast, I don't think there's enough discussion of the possible benefits of an extremely SLOW taper.

And how many stories do we all hear, of people who've tried over and over again to [...] off meds, and have to reinstate, but have never tried an extremely slow taper with long holds? In the long run so many people spend years trying to [...] off the meds, suffer, are disabled much of that time, end up hospitalized, et cetera, and in the end they don't [...] any time at all."

"I wanted to say that I've been going through this and can see it in my journal as I track my days of symptom severity and klonopin use to offset symptoms (Might not be recommended but I'd be dead without it). I've been through this cycle so many times, and I have a theory that it's a [...] process where our body [...] adapting and adjusting to not having the meds and that's where the pain or worse hellish days come into play, and then we feel better for a bit until our body has found a new way to heal and recover which triggers the pain/suffering cycle again.

I think of it as our body trying to find its way back home to how it should be after being nearly totally altered by these meds. On a bad day or a bad few days I think I try to remind myself that this [...] my body adapting and [...] and it will find its way. Those better days are proof that it has though for some it takes a while to [...] to them and they may only last a short bit.

I remember reading something a while ago about how the body knows how to heal itself from just about anything. But often we interfere with that or things interfere with it (things like stress or other meds or other health issues that compound one another). I like the idea of trusting in my body and believing that it knows how to find its way back to its wellness.

Bad days are awful but if they mean my body [...] going through some kind of adaption as it heals, I feel they are worth enduring. Like when you are tired and just want to [...] home, traffic and bad weather slow you down and can frustrate you endlessly because you JUST WANT TO BE HOME, but those things pass. They are temporary and you will [...] home eventually. So accepting the traffic and bad weather as par for the course makes the journey home a whole lot better and easier on you emotionally and stress wise. simple analogy that [...] weak compared to what we deal with during these cycles, but at its essence it holds the truth of what [...] happening. Storms and delays when we just want to be home (be well again). "

"If you are tapering too fast (and I would add moving doses around, crossing over to another benzo, etc.) and [...] withdrawal symptoms, they may fluctuate in a windows and waves pattern. This leads a lot of people to ignore the warning signs of going too fast (or tapering while unstable). If you continue to taper, withdrawal symptoms probably will [...] worse. It's the nature of withdrawal symptoms to fluctuate, because the nervous system [...] trying to correct itself. "

"For many reasons, our emotions are on a hair-trigger, amplified, and perseverative. We probably don't even know all of what's going on physically yet, but it includes diminished prefrontal lobe executive functions, rebound amygdala, dysregulated HPA, over-active adrenals, etc. The neuro-emotions include -- neuro-fear neuro-anger neuro-guilt neuro-shame neuro-hurt neuro-regret neuro-self-criticism neuro-grudge-holding ...and more! It [...] very, very confusing to have these intense neuro-emotions and try to remember that they are not what they appear to be. Emotions are compelling. Emotions during recovery from psych meds are even more compelling. Sometimes, the neuro-emotion [...] really totally artificial. Some of my neuro-fears have been so unlikely to come to pass as to bear no resemblance to reality or to my personal history. But, I think a lot of the time, part of what makes it so confusing [...] that there [...] a grain of reality to the neuro-emotion. For example, some situation might make you a bit angry under normal circumstances, but the neuro-anger [...] huge. This [...] when it's very difficult to 1) catch it in the first place and notice this [...] a neuro-emotion, 2) convince ourselves, yes, this [...] really a neuro-emotion, not a real emotion, 3) contain the emotion, try not to act on it, or channel the energy into something safe and constructive -- like exercise or journaling or building a birdhouse.   Whenever you're having an intense, disturbing[...], try to remind yourself that, right now -- even if it does have something to do with reality -- it [...] largely a neuro-emotion that you wouldn't be[...] if you were fully healed. And you *will* be fully healed. It's happening! [...] ready! "

"After a severe CT it took me about six months to [...] to[...] stable again. I've seen this in dozens of people.  It's not at all uncommon, especially after a CT or a series of ups and downs in dosage or a series of changes of meds, to take many months to stabilize; sometimes a year or more.
 
Seems like everyone does [...] better eventually, though. I know there must be rare exceptions, but from what I've seen they're extremely rare.
 
Anyway, months instead of weeks [...] a common variation.
 
It does require more patience but it's not a sign of a bad outcome. Many people have gone through spells like this, stabilized, and then gone on to do slow tapers quite successfully. "

"People heal at different rates. In 6 months, you might find you're much better. "

""[...] from withdrawal feels like not [...] at all and being certain that I'm going to be like this for the rest of my life and wondering if I'm going to have the strength to endure it.  But then finding myself driving in my car, completely relaxed, not worried about anything, remembering how at first, driving anywhere caused a continual state of panic until I got back home. I would put things off for days if I could, just so I could avoid the added stress.  Now, there [...] some residual fear associated with driving, caused by the memory of actually having to do it in such an intense state of fear, but once I [...] in the car, I relax.  It wasn't driving which caused the fear, the fear was there anyway.  A secondary fear was created out of the horrendous experience of having to drive around while being in a state of panic, I don't recommend it.
 
[...] [...] like[...] really awful and believing that its just getting worse and worse, until I think back carefully or read back through my thread or journal and see the truth about just how bad it was, compared to now.  It only seems like its getting worse.  Maybe its because its been going on so long, its wearing me down and wearing me out.
 
[...] [...] like walking backwards somewhere with your eyes closed.  You have no idea where you are heading, and you don't know where you have been until you [...] somewhere else and open your eyes for a few moments and look back towards where you came from.  Then you close them again and keep going.
 
Sometimes [...] feels like I am standing still while the rest of the world races by, leaving me behind, and I panic.  But then I calm down and notice that no one [...] going anywhere.  Everyone else [...] racing around and around in circles and I'm sitting calmly and peacefully in the center, knowing that everything I need [...] right here."

"Don't think that holding [...] "doing nothing." Far from it. When it's needed, it's needed to free your body to do the [...] it knows how to do... if we don't interfere! Tapering [...] necessary to [...] off the med, but the real recovery comes from complex [...] the body does, and the real [...] comes from what the body does to heal, which we don't fully understand. Sometimes a small updose steadies the body out and supports [...], sometimes it doesn't. You learned that in your case it doesn't. But [...] processes from anything can be "painful" and we can't see the [...] for a while - but that doesn't mean we aren't [...]!"

"Things [...] less and less wobbly the longer I hold. So that when I cut again, the system I'm re-perturbing [...] a stable and strong one that's going to be able to handle and adapt to the new perturbations. I think what I see happen to people a lot [...], they cut and then they hold for a while, just long enough to allow the worst of it to pass, then they cut again, et cetera, but after a few of those they hit a wall.
 
I'm beginning to think--for me, at least--it's really crucial not to just hold long enough to be able to function, but to hold, at least intermittently, long enough to allow a stable homeostasis to be established, to give the body/mind a chance to attend to some deeper [...]."

"Not only [...] it okay to hold for six months, it would be good for you at this point, to give your nervous system time to recover from what it's been through. You can definitely taper down when ready, it's just going to take a lot longer than you had expected. These drugs are NOT the innocent benign wonderful things we were told they are."

"I'm currently at four months in my hold, with a vague notion of going to about 6 months to see what level of stabilisation I can achieve.  I'm making myself do it cause I want to know down the track that at least I've given a long hold a good chance."

"When people exceed their nervous system's ability to keep up, they [...] destablized and then must sometimes updose and  hold for a few months or more before resuming, and when all [...] said and done, their taper takes longer than if they had just gone ahead and done the proper taper to begin with!  Throw away the calendar and focus on living your life.  Always listen to your body.  You'll always be taking less and less, which [...] better than still being on the full dosage from where you came, so it's all good, right?"

"Holding makes sense to me. I can't imagine tapering through this. I don't think it [...] wise to cut through intolerable symptoms."

"I will hold until I feel able to reduce a small amount. Every tiny cut feels like a cold turkey and reminds me how I felt during the botched crossover."

"Then I think you are on track to keep holding for the time being.  I'm currently at four months in my hold, with a vague notion of going to about 6 months to see what level of stabilisation I can achieve.  I'm making myself do it cause I want to know down the track that at least I've given a long hold a good chance."

" I would hold until your symptoms reduce, then hold for a good four weeks after (or more), given how long you've been tapering and how high a dose you started at, just to make sure your nervous system (central and enteric) really has a chance to stabilize."

" I tapered too fast and hit the wall. I ended up having to hold for months before I stabilized. I was[...] so crummy I didn't feel like I would ever stabilize, but things eventually settled down.
I know how hopeless you feel right now. The best thing you [...] [...] hold tight, don't mess with your dose and wait until things settle down."

"I would say holding [...] your best bet. You have destabilised you CNS and there [...] no silver mbullet that will take that away at once. After we destabilise our system it usually takes some times for things to very GRADUALLY start to settle. If you noticed even the slightest bit of relief as opposed to complete lifting of symptoms it would mean you are on the right track."

"I have so far seen that holding got me out of any hiccup I've had. Very bad symptoms only meant I had to wait longer. But I have faith that they will disappear because I've seen them disappear just as a result of holding."

" Holds are really important. When someone [...] tapering by cutting a little more each day it's still important to take the occasional hold where you don't reduce at all. You may have gotten a bit ahead of your brain's ability to heal itself. But I think it will be able to catch up if you treat it gently for a while and don't change your dose. I'd recommend not restarting your taper as soon as you feel better, [...] ahead and hold for an extra month or so just to allow the invisible [...] processes to catch up."

"It hasn't even been a month yet, and I expect you'll need to hold for at least three months before you notice really consistent improvement, so hang in there. 
 
And there will be ups and downs. Don't read too much into them. They would happen no matter what you do. Just stay very consistent, keep your life as stable and regular as possible, keep your meds as stable and regular as possible, and allow your nervous system to balance itself out as best it can. The more stable you are, the smoother your eventual taper will be.
 
Again, I think you may have reached the point that people often do reach, where you just don't have as many options any more if things [...] haywire. So please don't experiment with tapering faster. Stick with slow and safe."

"I have been holding, holding, holding as per your advice and yes it has been a ride that I had to hold on tight but I am now having windows that are clearer and even a few days of about 95%. But, I do fall back into waves but I to much much lesser degrees and that's what gets me through them. "

"If you are improving with the hold (as expected), I don't know why you would want to start tapering.  Why not wait until the symptoms are gone and then taper.  If you start now, your symptoms will slow the rate at which you can taper, and your quality of life will suffer."

"I'd continue to hold as long as you are improving.  I once held for 9 months.. to good effect. Why have a bumpy taper if you can come off without the pain of withdrawal symptoms."
 
"You don't need to make any more changes for a good time (think 6 months or so), even very small ones.  Please let things simmer down!  When you [...] symptomatic, you have wanted to updose, or ct.. or some variation.  Please hold onto the fact that the very best thing you [...] now [...] to HOLD and let your body heal.  And IMO, holding [...] the hardest part of all.  At least it was for me."

"What you suffer from [...] destabilisation and the best cure for that [...] stability over time. It's incredibly hard not to do something, anything when we are suffering so badly. But as you have seen so far that only makes things worse. The information describing how our brain remodels itself turned me into a firm believer of [...] power of holding. I have to say that after 5 horrible months I'm being rewarded by[...] so much better..."

"A month [...] not a long hold, especially if you're pretty symptomatic. I wouldn't assume a problem with a hold until after six months there was no improvement.
 
Yes of course most of us [...] improvement and stability with holds, that's why we do them. But like I say, a month [...] often not nearly long enough."

"I still find that holds are at least as important a part of the picture as the cuts. Maybe more. Slows me down even more, the longer holds, but I still [...] to[...] so much better after holding for a while that I know it's good for me to do it.
 
And overall[...] SO much better now that I'm on these low doses. Turtle turtle turtle [...] working for me still. I [...] other people can bring themselves to do it and it works for them too."

"I'm pretty sure that the holds, for me, are a crucial factor in how well I do overall. I notice a lot of improvement with, and for a couple of months after, every long hold. I feel like my body uses that time to catch up and heal and establish a new, better "normal."

"We all will recover [...] the [...] that gets me through the days. From all the countless hours of research and talking to doctors who understand kindling and withdrawl the general concensus [...] that it will [...] better with time. You are on the right path just keep going one day at a time. I have made the mistake many times of moving a dose or adding drugs only to make things worse."

"People feel pretty stable after holding for a while, but then make even a tiny cut and [...] hit with symptoms. This will happen over and over. Yet those same people eventually, after holding for many months or even a year, are able to cut again with much less trouble. I suspect there [...] a lot of subtle [...] that needs time, lots of time, to work its way through. Our nervous systems can reach a homeostatic state that's good enough when there are not a lot of extra stressors, but they're not fully healed and are still more fragile at that point than we realize, and can be easily pushed back over the edge. I think that's part of why we [...] those windows and those waves. I could be wrong but I think that's a pattern that I'm seeing."

"Holding for 6 months should result in a substantial improvement."

"A sufficiently and very slow taper after holding until stable and maybe a bit longer, should make you able to function and have quality of life while tapering."

"But as we see so often on withdrawal groups, it [...] not simply about (tolerating) getting to being drug-free. It [...] about completing the [...] process. I learned the concept that the ideal way to heal, and the least painless, [...] to balance tapers with [...].
 
So if your body still needs a little more of that [...] process, from the cases I have seen, it can actually be a faster [...] process to take a bit longer and let the process complete while not jarring your nervous system by going off too soon."

"I have noticed a change in the way I feel since I've been holding. It does tell me that crossing over to K and being on it for 3 months and then tapering was not enough time to stabilize on K. So I am now in my 78th day of holding, and I still am[...] change. This tells me that I should hold longer, which I had already planned to do anyway. I will not hesitate to hold a year if I feel i should. And when I do taper, it will be respective of small cuts with sufficient holds. I do not see the need to rush, and that [...] the position and mindset I now have."

"Unfortunately, there [...] no fast way out and if you hold for a while to let your nervous system settle and catch up to the changes and then do a slow and steady taper you will be in the best position possible. If you taper carefully you can enjoy a high quality of life , as you [...] . There are quite a few here who while tapering have held down jobs and maintained a[...] and healthy life. "

"You have to be so careful to taper this crap off VERY slowly!  I have also thought that I could not stabilize but that just means your brain type needs way more time to heal.  Just hold until you [...] stable if it does not happen then your brain [...] just telling you to [...] slower. Some people just need extra time.  If you taper faster then your S/X can heal then jumping just means a long recovery [...] coming and I'd rather spend that time slow tapering."

"I do not care what Ashton says I NEVER cut if I am still[...] bad.  I hold until I reach a new baseline and then cut again.  This [...] hard since people tend to push for some odd reason.   Personally I think the withdrawal amplifies the sense of urgency so we end up psyching ourselves out and end up going faster and faster.

Jumping does not heal you.  Feeling healed should be the only reason why you jump.  Took me 3 years to figure out this simple fact"

"I was very fortunate to have successfully gone on klonopin after what I believe was months off a virtually cold-turkey taper off a large amount of xanax."

"There are many reasons why reinstatements to taper are successful. Crossing to the longer life benzo after reinstating AND getting the right equivalency and more. HOLDING [...] essential and many are coached to "PUSH" through it upon reinstate. The brain has NO time to settle down."

"Just be careful in your taper off the clonazepam.  If your dizziness and other symptoms increase or are more disturbing, do not be afraid to hold the taper so that you don't suffer in the process."

"When doing a microtaper (smaller cuts but more frequently) people can [...] ahead of their brain's ability to remodel itself.  The time it takes a brain to heal and remodel, to build new receptors and remove old ones, to turn genes on and off, et cetera, [...] just not something that we can control or change.
 
I generally encourage people who are microtapering to continue to take intermittent longer holds throughout their taper, just to make sure the brain [...] [...] keeping up with the cuts they are making."

"I am almost 4 years out from my last benzo. In the beginning I tapered too fast and hit the wall. I ended up having to hold for months before I stabilized. I was[...] so crummy I didn't feel like I would ever stabilize, but things eventually settled down.

I know how hopeless you feel right now. The best thing you [...] [...] hold tight, don't mess with your dose and wait until things settle down."

"I would say holding [...] your best bet. You have destabilised you CNS and there [...] no silver bullet that will take that away at once. After we destabilise our system it usually takes some times for things to very GRADUALLY start to settle. If you noticed even the slightest of relief as opposed to complete lifting of symptoms it would mean you are on the right track."
 
"Unfortunately, the classic pattern with benzo withdrawal (with all psych meds, but especially benzos) [...] pretty roller-coaster-y: better days/worse days/better days etc.
 
It's pretty typical in a situation where one has pushed the tapering a bit too hard and gotten into a bad patch, for it to not resolve as quickly as it has in the past. In fact this [...] a pretty normal pattern: we taper along and things seem to [...] okay, and then symptoms start to sort of build up and not resolve quite as fast as usual, and then we sort of "hit the wall." That's when it's time to stop tapering!
 
(Well, actually, if we notice the "buildup and not resolve as fast" phase, that's actually the best time to stop and hold, but I don't know about you, but I'm usually too impatient for that.)
 
You've tapered pretty fast--not unreasonably, but not slowly. Now you're down to a significantly lower dose than where you started. It might be time for a nice long hold to allow your body and nervous and endocrine systems time to catch up, heal and rebalance.
 
It sounds like that's what your body may be telling you, and your body [...] the only real expert on how you need to taper.
 
It's normal to feel pessimistic and bleak during a bout of withdrawal symptoms, even for a really positive person during an otherwise successful taper. It's like we just lose our ability to see the good side of things, like things have never been good, even though logically we know they must have been. That's just another symptom.

Giving your body time to really restabilize and [...] solid now will make your future taper much easier.

And when you're ready to taper again, I would consider taking intermittent longer holds of several weeks from time to time.

Basically, the takeaway: What you're experiencing [...] normal. "

 "You may need to hold your dosages still for a long time if you want to be stable and work and parent your beautiful daughter.
 
Please resist the urge to make a bunch of changes.  It [...] destabilizing (and there [...] that speeding train headed for a sharp curve!), and you need to be stable, and well."

"I think there's every reason to assume that given time, a CNS can restabilize and [...] itself back into balance with successively lower doses of the drug using some variation on the same mechanisms that it uses to restabilize and [...] itself back into balance when the drug [...] removed altogether. I think it's a perfectly reasonable hypothesis that this would explain why a slow taper works so well for some people and symptoms often disappear after holding long enough.

Probably ideally, if someone can [...] off a benzo quickly, the best thing to do [...] to [...] it out of the system and then allow the receptors to fully repopulate and all the other stuff to happen to renormalize the CNS.

But this isn't practical for many, many people. Many people have to [...] slowly. Many people [...] very sick when they try to "grit one's teeth and continue the withdrawal." And the kind of sick they [...] can be very, very bad. In fact, it can keep them from ever getting off benzos at all; often they end up polydrugged as a result of getting so sick."

"Small steps but thats how it [...] done. I understand the fear. It has kept me frim doing the simplest of things over the course of this tapering process. But you can take back control.

Have confidence in you ur self first. Accept dont fight. What we resist persists and what we accept eventually fades. You are going to be fine.

I think everything we experience in this withdrawal [...] caused by fear and anxiety but heightened 100 times because of withdrawal.

All these pains and numbness and crazy thoughts etc. are experienced by people in anxious states who are not even on any medication.

Once we accept that these sensations are only exaggerated anxious thoughts and sensations we can force our bodies if not our minds to move. Eventually we bypass the fear response and our normal levels resume.It has been done by others and it can be done by us too. 

Accept, float through it and let time pass."

"Three things I had to learn after my first two failed tapers, for me to even think of succeeding. I had to let [...] of Fear, as it was taking me to places that I did not want to [...], to Accept the process of [...] and know that I had to take all the time I needed, and to Believe that I could do this, doubt of self [...] something that really will make things worse."

"If Turtle has crossed your path:
He [...] usually giving you the message that ďslow and steady wins the raceĒ Pay attention to details in your current project and take your time with it. Donít be tempted to skip steps or take short cuts. You will [...] there! Just trust in the process and stay in the moment. Bigger, stronger, faster are not always the best ways to reach your goals.
Turtle can also be a signal that you need to ground yourself and your energy to Earth.

If Turtle [...] your Animal Totem:
You have exceptional navigation skills. You can always find your way through anything. You also have a tendency to withdraw into your shell if your find yourself in an uncomfortable or what you perceive as a threatening situation. You must also be mindful of returning to the Earth what she has given you. Honor the creative source within you. Use water and earth energies to create a harmonious flow in your life. Ask the Earth for assistance and her riches will pour forth."

"I have found three things about sxs while tapering.
1. If you had a particular physical issue, it (they) will manifest during tapering.
2. If you are predisposed to getting upset about certain situations, it (they) will manifest during taper.
3. How you perceive the pain or unsettling feelings will probably be magnified 10 fold.

I always tell myself, this [...] only temporary while [...]. I tell myself resist nothing so as not to give it strength and duration. I tell myself accept all and find that place of [...] peace."

"Its hard to think of how important balance [...]. Our brains are striving for balance. Our drugs have thrown our GABA/glutamate ratios way off balance and our brains just [...] know how much [...] coming - and with the [...] that takes place, thats yet another zing to our systems. In the long run its a good thing but short term the symptoms can seem disheartening. Try to remember its all a process- there [...] a constant tug of war going on in our brains and we just have to find the best route to [...] to zero and then to fully healed. "

"I honestly believe we must always believe in the Process of [...]. Patience, Time, and letting [...] of excess Fear. "

"When you hold youíre not failing, youíre just changing the way you stay in charge of the situation taking by control of a bad situation, it just a change of tactics nothing more nothing less. It takes brave person to keep trying different ways, not a failure, holding [...] NOT giving up, its regrouping to keep moving forwards.


 Anyway there's no such thing as failure, its just more chances to keep trying."

"It sure [...] great to see holds producing results and relief for many here.  I'm convinced that the holds were essential to me and my ability to successfully complete my taper - well, not quite completed!  Six days and counting!

It does take alot to hold for significant amounts of time.  We always have that doubt as to whether we are doing the right thing or, even, the fear that we are harming ourselves.  What a ridiculous situation we all find ourselves in.  I guess I am fortunate in that I held (with great results!) for 8 months before I found BB and read negative comments about holding.  I was only here a day or two before buddies told me that I would [...] "tolerance withdrawal" if I didn't start reducing immediately.  Well, this lead to a racing that precipitated a second hold of 4 months.  I'm just thankful that I found this group during that second hold and could shut out the voices that would have sunk me.  But it sure can take a leap of faith.

I do believe that this group [...] preventing failed tapers, giving up and/or even "protracted".  Plus it seems to be the most supportive support group around!"

"As far as how long to hold?  We are all different but I will say that I had to hold 8 months my first year of tapering.  I had gone way too fast and was a mess.  It took a very long time until I could cut again.  I couldn't see any possibility of cutting while I was so sick.  It made no sense to me whatsoever.  I then went too fast again - terrified of getting tolerance wd.  I should have known better as I had already held eight months without any problem - only fairly steady improvement.  So...another long hold.  4 months this second time.

After learning my lesson, I slowed way down and was prepared to hold again if sxs ramped.  I had found the right pace and sxs were very tolerable.  When they started increasing again I slowed again for the remainder of my taper.  Then...I walked off.  No bad sxs and no acute.  I'm close to 4 wks off and feel great.

I do think that anyone having a really bad time should give a hold a decent chance.  I would say that 2 or 3 month minimum.  Then re-evaluate and assess whether there has been improvement.  If you can [...] back on your feet by holding and then [...] slow enough to keep sxs low I do think it's very likely that you will have no worsening after you are off.  If I can walk-off after 25yrs of xanax (ending at 8mgs) anyone can."

"Yes, I decided that I would NOT fear long holds, or up doses. These things only helped me. I did not allow myself to sink too far into w/d sxs that I know had potential to frustrate me so that I would give up. If I felt Benzo Flu coming on, I would give it a day, and then I would make a decision to updose for one time, which surprisingly worked for me, numerous times to [...] me out of sxs. And sometimes, I just went back to previous dose and held longer. Once I cut again AFTER holding longer, I was able to continue w/o the dreaded sxs."

 "Remember the goal [...] to match medicine intake to the goal [...] to match medicine intake to where oneís [...] [...] at...Ē


A great read!
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Long Hold Support Group
« Reply #49387 on: March 23, 2021, 11:13:06 pm »
[...] thatís a great read!!! Thank you ! A bit reassuring.

3. There's a lag time with benzo tapers. You can make a cut and do okay, make another cut and do okay, and so on, and then all at once it will catch up with you cumulatively and you can really hit the wall. It's much better to start slow and small with small cuts and long breaks in between cuts, until you have a chance to see how the withdrawal symptoms come and [...] over time. It's typical with benzo tapers for there to be days when you feel great and you're sure you're all better, followed by worse days, back and forth. So see #1, don't push your luck. With practice and experience you'll learn the best pace for you. But it's a lot easier if you don't overdo it and crash--it can really set you back to do that."
&[...];&[...];&[...];&[...];&[...]; this [...] my case unfortunately and now Iím really really bad even getting worse with anxiety of not getting better. What should I do in your opinion ? Holding [...] very difficult I updosed 2 days ago but not sure it will be enough to calm an anxious mind.
I was sleeping good since I crashed but since 10 days I donít, and the next days are terrific...

I try hydroxycline I calm me down but I donít want to abuse it..

Thank you if you can help because Iím so desperate about what to do🙏🏻
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Long Hold Support Group
« Reply #49388 on: March 23, 2021, 11:23:12 pm »
Carla, [...] [...] reinstated to 2 mg after an attempted jump and held there for 1.5 years I believe before she started tapering again.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Long Hold Support Group
« Reply #49389 on: March 23, 2021, 11:51:15 pm »
[...] - Thank you for posting that.  I needed to read that.  I am thinking I didnít hold long enough.  I am already struggling with my SX with this DLMT and have held already 3 nights, and am holding again.  I may need to do a longer hold and stabilize more, before continuing.

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.