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How risky would this be - again/Help!


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by the way, didn't mean to say "Goof luck", the f and d keys are pretty close and spell checker didn't help me this time. I didn't see the mistake until it was sailing off the screen.

 

Good luck John,

 

Jim

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Hey Jim.  Thanks for your words of support.  I sort of like the "goof" typo !  Regarding the restoril, five hours is exactly what I got but I can deal with that. I'll probably have to deal with some sleepless nights so as not to develop another habit. I hope that at some point soon I will get all of this sorted out and a decent night's sleep will once again be something I take for granted but for now that's obviously not how its going to be.

 

I'm glad to see you've started your titration.  I hope it smoothes out your taper bumps.  I'll follow your updates to see how it goes for you.

 

John

 

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Hi, John.  Glad to hear you caught a few winks and hopefully feel a bit better. 

 

Try slicing that Restoril into 1/2 dose or less if you can.  Many times, commercially marketed doses are higher than necessary.  You can reduce risks of side effects and dependency if you can cut the dose a bit.

 

On the flip side, I love that you have an active life -- so do I!  Split the difference a little so that your active life is not driving you to use meds that harm you.  If you need to take things a little more slowly, then do so.

 

Also look for some nonpharmaceutical approaches that will help reduce your need for Restoril.  For me, those are good sleep hygiene, a lot of exercise, and some natural remedies (melatonin, GABA, etc...).

 

I am incredibly envious of your hot tub!!  ;D

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Glad your getting some sleep.  I'm having a terrible time with insomnia right now, and lack of sleep makes me crazy...literally. I've taken trazodone 100 mg for 11 years and it used to help but not anymore with this withdrawal, plus the intense pain I'm in since falling on my tailbone. 

I hope your sleep regulates for you soon.

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Hi John,

 

I've been battling insomnia off and on for 13 years and i'm at the end of my taper .5mg of valium. My sleep has been horrible but i'm determined to become medication free so my gaba-a receptors can heal and natural sleep can return. I believe that the longer one takes a benzo or z-sleeping drug the longer it takes for the gaba-a receptors to heal. It's a catch 22 situation where you want instant relief from your insomnia but there is a steep price to pay in the long run. I'm only sleeping 2-3 hours a night and working full time .

 

You are in an ideal situation where you are retired  and don't have the additional stress of getting through a work day on little to no sleep. I would read the ashton manual and keep busy in your retirement. I think you need to be patient and stay away from benzos and z-sleeping drugs and in time your sleep will improve. Take care.            Zackster

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Hey John,

 

  I wholeheartedly agree with Zackster; you are in a very unique situation since you are retired and tapering.  Like Zackster, I worked full-time throughout my taper.  Most nights, I was averaging 0-4 hours a sleep (been dealing with insomnia since February), and then having to appear refreshed for work.  I simply  made it on a wing and a prayer.  Rebound insomnia is very taxing on the mind and body to say the least, but once that natural sleep cycle returns...and it will...you will never want to put anything foreign in your body to help you to sleep again.  If you keep feeding the benzo beast, you'll never experience the beauty of natural sleep which is priceless.  Stay the course.   

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Thanks all.  I hear you and am going to minimize my use of the restoril.  That means I'll have to endure a string of sleepless nights and then use it only when I reach a point where I can't function.  As I've said before, I can't go more than three days in a row with no sleep.  I'm reduced to a horrible state and simply can't function.  Its not just being tired; I'm reduced to an intolerable state.

 

Right now I can only hope that I'll get my problem identified and find a medical fix for it and that will eliminate any need for the drugs.  That won't happen for a while, though, as I don't get to see the specialist until next week and my experience has been that tests will be ordered and more time will go by until - maybe - I get a diagnosis.  So in the meantime I'm stuck with dealing with my symptoms the best I can.

 

Believe me, I'm terrified of building a tolerance as I did so quickly with ativan and know I'm sensitive.  I'll tough out as many nights as I can but until I get to the doc I'll have to use the pills if I'm sleepless for two (might be able to go three) nights in a row.  I'm just hoping I don't have to deal with this pattern too much longer.  Thanks for all your time and thoughts.

 

John

 

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John,

 

After reading your posts, it is my opinion that you need to do what you need to do to sleep. You must be exhausted. I'm been there and thought I was going mad. Yes, I wouldn't go near the benzos (I'm a newbie and tapering) again. But you know yourself. I trust that if you needed to go the benzo route it would be temporary. Try any homeopathic product. Some work differently. I like Nerve Tonic and any product by Boiron. Take care and and know that we all feel for you.

 

Anna

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Thanks Anna.  It truly a very bad place to be.  I've tried all the herbal/supplement stuff and none of them worked but thanks for the suggestions.

 

BTW - I just discovered (don't know how I missed it) that the OTC Unisom comes in two formulations.  Not knowing this I had tried the capsule type which contains diphenhydramine hcl.  It didn't work.  The pill type, though, is doxylamine succinate, a different and apparently more powerful antihistimine. It isn't addicting (although I suppose you could build a type of tolerance over a long time) and many say it works as well or better than the rx stuff.  So I'll try it and maybe be able to ditch the restoril.

 

Wish me luck.

 

John

 

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Thanks Anna.  It truly a very bad place to be.  I've tried all the herbal/supplement stuff and none of them worked but thanks for the suggestions.

 

BTW - I just discovered (don't know how I missed it) that the OTC Unisom comes in two formulations.  Not knowing this I had tried the capsule type which contains diphenhydramine hcl.  It didn't work.  The pill type, though, is doxylamine succinate, a different and apparently more powerful antihistimine. It isn't addicting (although I suppose you could build a type of tolerance over a long time) and many say it works as well or better than the rx stuff.  So I'll try it and maybe be able to ditch the restoril.

 

Wish me luck.

 

John

 

 

Good luck, John! Pleasant dreams!  ;D

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Well, the doxylamine unisom did eventually bring on sleep but I had very vivid, depressing anxiety dreams.  Bad enough that I remember them in some detail.  Also, it produced a pronounced physical "drugged" feeling that I did not like.  So I guess that's out, too.  Damn.

 

So, not to beat a dead horse, but anybody want to speculate on how often I could use the restoril without building a habit ?  I'm thinking maybe once every four or five days would be safe.  Am I fooling myself ?  I know any benzo use is scary but it seems to me there's got to be some degree of use that wouldn't result in a habit.  Any notions about that ?

 

John

 

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Well, the doxylamine unisom did eventually bring on sleep but I had very vivid, depressing anxiety dreams.  Bad enough that I remember them in some detail.  Also, it produced a pronounced physical "drugged" feeling that I did not like.  So I guess that's out, too.  Damn.

 

So, not to beat a dead horse, but anybody want to speculate on how often I could use the restoril without building a habit ?  I'm thinking maybe once every four or five days would be safe.  Am I fooling myself ?  I know any benzo use is scary but it seems to me there's got to be some degree of use that wouldn't result in a habit.  Any notions about that ?

 

John

 

 

John...you've already seen you're not one of the lucky people who can take a benzo and have no ill effects.  I feel you're playing with fire to consider this course of action. 

 

Here is a paragraph from the Ashton Manual, do you really want to put your body through this?  You're going to be on a see saw of brain activity.  You scare me John, you've already been compromised by the Cipro and the Ativan, now you want to throw Restoril into the mix?

 

As a consequence of the enhancement of GABA's inhibitory activity caused by benzodiazepines, the brain's output of excitatory neurotransmitters, including norepinephrine (noradrenaline), serotonin, acetyl choline and dopamine, is reduced. Such excitatory neurotransmitters are necessary for normal alertness, memory, muscle tone and co-ordination, emotional responses, endocrine gland secretions, heart rate and blood pressure control and a host of other functions, all of which may be impaired by benzodiazepines. Other benzodiazepine receptors, not linked to GABA, are present in the kidney, colon, blood cells and adrenal cortex and these may also be affected by some benzodiazepines. These direct and indirect actions are responsible for the well-known adverse effects of dosage with benzodiazepines.

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I certainly don't want to take the restoril, but it seemed to be the only out and so rather than not ever taking it I was trying to find a way to get occasional sleep without risking a habit. Anyway, I have an update and maybe a good alternative.

 

Last night I decided to give several of the supplements another try as I am now on a beta blocker to control my heart rate and thought that with the heart rate down maybe I'd see some benefit.  So I took 200mg of l-theanine and 1000mg of inositol an hour before I went to bed and it worked !  It wasn't really deep sleep but I did sleep and had lots of dreams (not bad ones) so I'd interpret that as getting some REM stage sleep.  I had tried both previously - but not together - and didn't sleep.  However, at that time my heart was still racing and that may have been a factor.

 

The l-theanine is moderately expensive and the inositol is relatively cheap; altogether affordable.  So if you haven't tried these you might want to.  From what I've been able to find on the internet and what the pharmacist at the compounding pharmacy where I bought them said there's really no risk with either of these and apparently no side effects.  It cost me a total of $35 for a bottle of 60 l-theanine and a bottle of 100 inositol capsules and if it continues to work its well worth it to me.  At the rate I'm using them it averages out to about a dollar a day.  It might work for others so I thougt I'd post my experience.

 

John

 

 

 

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John, you've made my day!  Thank you so much for continuing to fight the Rx meds for sleep!  I have huge sleep challenges, so I'm going to go to my pharmacy and pick up what you're recommending.  The last thing I tried for sleep was acupuncture; I'm not crazy about it, but it seemed to work.  I'd much rather swallow a pill (who wouldn't) than get needles stuck in me.

 

Thanks again for continuing to fight the good fight!  :yippee:

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Pam - I hope these work for you, too.  I imagine your typical pharmacy might not have these so you might have to go to a place that sells supplements (health food store, etc.).  We have a compounding pharmacy that carries a lot of supplements and that's where I got mine.  Maybe call around first.  These are common and shouldn't be hard to find (unless maybe you live in a really small, rural town).  Let me know if it works for you.  As I said, I took it about an hour before I went to bed.  The dosages I took is what my doc and a nutrition book I have recommended for sleep.

 

John

 

 

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Pam - I hope these work for you, too.  I imagine your typical pharmacy might not have these so you might have to go to a place that sells supplements (health food store, etc.).  We have a compounding pharmacy that carries a lot of supplements and that's where I got mine.  Maybe call around first.  These are common and shouldn't be hard to find (unless maybe you live in a really small, rural town).  Let me know if it works for you.  As I said, I took it about an hour before I went to bed.  The dosages I took is what my doc and a nutrition book I have recommended for sleep.

 

John

 

 

 

Will do John, thanks!  :thumbsup:

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Hi John,

 

So....are the theanine and inositol still working?  That's really great that you found a solution, at least for now. 

 

There are other amino acids (which theanine is) that work for sleep too.  My neurologist had recommended taurine (for relaxation, a GABA precursor).  I've also read about taking ornithine, which I haven't tried, but hope to, one of these days.  I drink green tea every afternoon, (has theanine in it) which relaxes me.  I find that keeping sort of in balance and rested during the day helps me get better sleep.  As opposed to getting all over-amped (which doesn't take much in a postbenzo body) to where I can't get to sleep. 

 

Just to share my experiences....in my early days off Klon, I took a variety of "meds" -- none of which worked very well, but just enough to break that cycle you speak of -- it was every 3-4 days, roughly.  I tried halves of Elavil, Trazadone (rarely), Benedryl, doxylamine, hydroxyzine (Atarax), Flexeril, and...I think that's it.  They all made me feel hungover and revved up some benzo symptoms.  And I never felt good about taking them.  I seemed to be oversensitized to ANY meds.  Mostly, I took some good magnesium and Vitamin E at night, with warm milk.  None of the herbal things worked for me either. 

 

Nowadays?  I take magnesium, my hormones (of course), and often 2 tylenol (plain, not with benedryl as in "p.m.") if my legs are aching.  And listen to mellow massage music in the distance.   

 

Speaking of hormones, I'm glad you're gettings things checked out.  If thyroid hormones are the problem, that can be a huge contributor to insomnia (if it's low).  And no amount of sleep practices, vitamins, or whathaveyou can override a hormone situation, I've found.  So it's important to get the hormones balanced, or fixed up however they need.  Although I hope your endocrinologist won't be the "slow boat to China" kind. 

 

adelia

 

 

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Thanks Adelia !  I'll check into those other amino acids.

 

The l-theanine and inositol work maybe two times out of three.  Last night I was more anxious than usual and woke up at three unable to get back to sleep.  The previous two nights, though, I got at least two more hours.  As Pamster said, its a "crap shoot."  Nothing else has worked even a little, though, so I'm sticking with this formula for now.

 

The endo is a good guy and I think he knows his stuff but my case is a bit perplexing so it is a bit of a wait and see situation.  I have to get blood work again in two weeks to see if any pattern begins to show up.  I have hyperthyroid symptoms but the levels checked to-date are normal.  However, there's a few things that didn't get tested for the first time that they will look at in two weeks.  I'll just have to wait on that.  Its also possible that its all a bad case of stress.  Unfortunately, there's not test for that but I am going to get some EMDR therapy starting next week and the psychologist I'm working with says she thinks it is stress and that the EMDR will help me.  I hope so.

 

Thanks again for your support.

 

John

 

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Hi John--Don't discount the fact that you still could be suffering from Cipro and benzo "poisoning" and in time you'll feel less anxious and be able to sleep better. 
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Yeah, Pam, both of those are possible factors.  The longer I'm off ativan, the more I wonder about Cipro but, as you know, there's not tests for Cipro poisoning either nor is there any real cure other than time and a healthy lifestyle.  The Cipro thing is always in the background but I try not to dwell on it.  A doctor I contacted about that (who is a pioneer in the anti-Cipro campaign) said that he thought if it was Cipro stuff that I would eventually (as in months, not years) get better.  He said that he thought that because I was on it a relatively short time and because I didn't have a bad reaction right away as most who were badly damaged do.  I shure hope he's right.

 

Right now I'm leaning toward it being stress overload (but not dismissing the thyroid possibility yet).  The psychologist says she thinks that likely - or that its at least a major player in the mix - and that EMDR therapy will help.  I liked her and am going to give her voodoo a try as I don't see I have anything but a few co-pays to lose, really.

 

Thanks so much for asking about me and for all your support to-date.  BTW, I had the best night's sleep last night I've had in a month.  Maybe my luck has come in and I should buy a lottery ticket.

 

John

 

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I saw you mention EMDR, wondering what that is?  If it helps then a few co-pays is a good price.  I was the same way when I tried acupuncture for a pinched nerve, my insurance pays 100% for 24 visits.  I think I mentioned it didn't help the nerve but it worked wonders for my sleep.  :wacko:  Hey, whatever works as long as it isn't drugs!

 

I'll bet you feel great today, congratulations on getting a great night of sleep, I think it was your turn, finally!

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EMDR stand for Eye Movement and Desensitization Reprocessing.  Google 'EMDR thereapy' if you are interested.  It sounds quite woowoo but it has been studied a lot and is commonly used for post-traumatic stress disorders.  It isn't used for general anxiety disorder or panic type anxiety but is useful in some types of general stress and anxiety (i.e. not PTSD) situations.  The woman I am seeing treats the local SWAT team and other law enforcement types, firemen, and the like.  She says she thinks it'll help me so I'm game.  I should probably ask her if its habit-forming, though.  Can't be too careful about that ya know.

 

The sleep was great.  Now there's a habit I'd gladly develop.  I hope you are catching a few more winks, too.

 

John

 

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You're so adorable, Pam.  :smitten:  Thinking that EMDR might be covered by insurance.  One of these years, perhaps it will be!  Good point on John's symptoms still being benzo or cipro-related.  Very good point. 

 

Hi John, I don't think it's "voodoo" at all.  But then, I'm one of your biggest proponents of alternative therapies, of all makes and models.  I've tried a lot of 'em.  Not EMDR though.  (not yet). 

 

Just FYI, when I first started having pain troubles, I found a book in the library called "Bitter Pills" (something like that).  Written by a journalist about his wife who took ONE dose of Cipro and had major problems for several years.  So the book was his research and discovery about how cipro and other drugs get through the approval process.  It was so very illuminating, I was horrified!  Mostly because I've taken cipro numerous times. And I didn't even realize people could get sick from taking an anti-biotic.  Boy, did I have a lot to learn. 

 

Since then, I've had to take back my own power in my health care.  And look at any of my drs. as "co-pilots" in guiding my plan to good health.  But I always have the last word on which direction we go!    :laugh: 

 

Also, I'm a big proponent of "functional medicine".  My own neurologist has gone this direction too.  It means that an individual is treated based on their symptoms.  Not on lab tests, or blood tests (of course, the labs need to be done too, to see what they have to say).  More and more though, that's how I want to be treated. 

 

And thyroid hormones are especially pesky, when it comes to getting the symptoms to show up in the labs, in my experience.  So, you may be hyperthyroid?  Are you taking any thyroid hormones?  I'm low....have been for years, but it got worse during benzo w/d's. 

 

adelia

 

 

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