Taper from 3mg. Klonopin

I was on .25 klonopin at bedtime for at least six years to help with sleep as I have a bladder condition called for short "IC". I was proscribed .05 mg twice a day so my script would last four months! I believed that it also relaxed my bladder so i as persistent in finding a doctor willing to proscribe long term, so I can't really blame my doctor except that she dropped me when I said I was getting  interdose withdrawals and wanted to switch to Valium and taper. So I finally found a doctor willing to proscribe K at a higher dose to stabilize which is now 3mg taken all at night. He is not too benzo wise but listens and I consider myself lucky to have not been forced into large unmanageable cuts. But I still want to be off Klonopin completely. My attempts at dry cutting were not too successful  as my pill cutter is so inaccurate. So I want to try the liquid method but still can't understand it completely and need help.  Please ignore my signature below as my present situation is as just stated (not sure how to change it(signature).  Thanks

I just left you a message to start a new thread, and then immediately found out you already did, lol.  Thanks.

 

What is your dose and pill sizes?  The most common way to liquify K is to put it in full fat whole milk.  Once I know your dose and pill info I can suggest how to do it.

My dosage is 3mg per day, and I am "stable"  I have been back and forth from 2 to 3mgs over the past eight months ever since I got the interdose withdrawal from .25 mg. I know the doctor will not go above 3mg per day and I wouldn't either. As I said I'm lucky to have him, I've even been back early two different months and he still wrote a script for a slightly higher dose. Some docs have "Controlled Substance Contracts" and in that case if you run out early you can't get another script until its been 30 days, or be dropped as happened to me once. (did get "bridge subscription"). So I'm running out of chances. That's why I want to try your method and appreciate your help so much. So next Tuesday I'll get 90 1mg Sandoz generic. That's another story; generics ARE different I wish could afford brand but insurance won't pay. It's about $3 vs. $151!!  But I can certainly get .05's when and if necessary. And I could split my dosage over the 24 hrs. when it got lower if that was your recommendation.

Generic is fine.  What's important is to be consistent.  And 1mg pills will be fine too.

 

So 1mg pills @ 3mg per day of K.  I forgot to ask how many doses, but I'll assume two.  What I'd suggest is liquifying just one pill at a time.  Put a 1mg pill into an empty jar.  Cover, place in fridge, let it sit and shake once in awhile.  Dose this way for a week or two.  When ready to cut at your dose I'd recommend removing .003mg per day.  The amount of liquid this is depends on how much liquid you used.  For example, if you used 50ml it would be .15ml.  You can likely cut faster than this, but this is where I would begin.

So what liquid do I use, whole milk?  If so does the pill just dissolve with no need of  motar and pestle?    And then what exactly is the tool to remove the .003 per day?  I must sound like a dope but it still seems complicated to me.

Whole milk is a good choice.  There are other ways too.  Almost all brands of pills will disintegrate just by dropping in liquid, so the m&p is not needed.

 

For measuring and dispensing use a 1ml and a 10ml syringe.  Some pharmacies give them away for free or you can order online.

 

It seems complicated at first, but it will become simple and easy quickly.

So what liquid do I use, whole milk?  If so does the pill just dissolve with no need of  motar and pestle?    And then what exactly is the tool to remove the .003 per day?  I must sound like a dope but it still seems complicated to me.

 

These are all very common questions and it can be intimidating but once you do the process, you will see its not that complicated.  We can do this!

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

Thank you all.  I start next week.  I think I've "got it"  I just need to master the math part of it which I'm confident i can do. Speaking of math if someone is willing, how long will it take to get to zero if I make .003 reductions per day from from 3mg. of Klonopin.  I know I should figure it out myself and I will as I progress. And certainly I understand that a taper can go faster or slower according to how I will be feeling. Dry cutting was just not working for me, I'm now have a more positive attitude about future, especially from the replies and explanations from everyone, thanks again.

Thank you all.  I start next week.  I think I've "got it"  I just need to master the math part of it which I'm confident i can do. Speaking of math if someone is willing, how long will it take to get to zero if I make .003 reductions per day from from 3mg. of Klonopin.  I know I should figure it out myself and I will as I progress. And certainly I understand that a taper can go faster or slower according to how I will be feeling. Dry cutting was just not working for me, I'm now have a more positive attitude about future, especially from the replies and explanations from everyone, thanks again.

 

Remember you can speed up the process as you go based on how you feel.  .003mg a day would take 1000 days; at .004mg a day would take 750 days;  at .005mg a day would take  600 days; and .01mg a day would take 300 Days. 

 

Stay focused on now and try not to think about how long it will take.  I have been on this journey for a long while and now i am almost finished and man is it worth it!

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

As Sharky said, a .003mg cut projects to 1000 days.  But your taper will go nothing like that.  You are at 3mg K.  We can't know your taper rate, but odds are you will be able to go quicker than this for quite a while.  Then, near the end, probably around .15-.25mg, you will need to REALLY slow down and the last bits would take a long time.  All in all I'd expect 2-3 years to get from 3mg to zero, but of coarse there are exceptions that go both faster and slower.

 

Here's a link that I am posting from the SA forum (kudos and thank you to whoever posted it!!) that gives you an idea of what might be going on.  I am perhaps simplifying things too much, but it seems reasonable to me that this is a major piece of the puzzle.  It is an example of psych drug receptor occupancy vs. dose.  A proper taper follows a curve like this from right to left.  Notice it is flat and nearly straight for a long time at the top (bigger cuts do not expose as many receptors in this portion), then at a low dose it bends and curves sharply downward (this is the low dose range where we always see things slow down, the same cut now exposes many new receptors), then it straightens again and goes to zero maintaining the final slope.

 

http://www.mediafire.com/view/f3h1ao5ijfj93/papers#0yp2c8pbjrziaab

 

To me this is striking and insightful as it is exactly the type of curve that successful daily tapers follow.  They begin and can go quickly at the same cut for many months, then the slowdown occurs, and finally a slow boat to the finish.

 

Anyway, more than you asked for, but I thought I would post it for everyone benefit.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/f3h1ao5ijfj93/papers#0yp2c8pbjrziaab

 

Anyway, more than you asked for, but I thought I would post it for everyone benefit.

 

That is pretty striking. Thanks for posting that SG

 

TH

So now I'm looking at possibly two to three years. I said my  doctor was helpful and understanding but he doesn't know about micro tapers, titration etc. How do you all get your pills? No one seems to mention prescriptions and doctors. Do you go every month, do you get refills or have to go every month?  Benzo's I believe are schedule 4  so I think we can get refills.  I've been seeing my guy now since October '14 and he thought it would be all over by now.  What does everyone tell their doctors when they are repeatedly asking for a drug that we all now now is only supposed to be for a short time? I had originally told him I would cut 1/4 of 1mg, every week,  meaning I would be finished (from  3 mg.) in 12 weeks which is 3 monthly visits. I now know this of course did not work, I kept taking the cut piece in the middle of the night because I couldn't sleep. I fully expect him to agree to proscribe 3 mg. again next week, but what have you told your doctors.

Hi,

 

 

I see my doctor every three months right now. At first it was every month until he saw that I was getting lower in my dose.  He also was my detox doctor.(My pain management doctor who prescribed the pills told me that I was just blocking my ability to get off in three months and was in so much pain, and he also told me that some people just like to put a pill in their mouth and he told me to go back to the detox doctor) My detox doctor saw what he had done to me, so he pretty much agrees with anything I want because he admitted he doesn't know much about tapering benzos...only how to detox. I told him I couldn't cut anymore and that I was going to use milk, which he had never heard of but agreed to. He used to write a script with refills but now I have to call his office and they  call it in. He writes it for more than I need so I have a lot of extras. 

 

I've read some people don't tell their doctor they are tapering so they keep prescribing.

 

Good luck to you.

 

Grace

First off, don't let the time thing scare you. It's a kick in the pants to wrap your mind around it in the beginning, but you will be feeling better doing the liquid,which will help tremendously in passing the time. It won't be like being in acute where you are counting the minutes of every day.

 

As far as the meds go, I think that most doctors have a hard time giving up control. With this taper you will be the expert, and you will be in control. With that being said, most doctors do want to help people and see them get better. I have no doubt that with this LT you will start to feel better and your dose will steadily decline.When both you and your doctor begin to see the results,something will click and it will become more of a team effort. From there it will be smooth sailing to the end.

 

Good Luck!

tryin'

Thanks tryinghard for a good answer and more inspiration which is just what i need at this point  Chip Miller Terrace

You are welcome Chip. Just remember, there is always someone who has it worse. I'll be looking for a little inspiration myself. I had my first routine colonoscopy yesterday and walked out of there with a cancer diagnosis. I wasn't going to mention it on here,but I have a feeling I'm going to be in for the fight of my life. I'll take all the support I can get.

 

tryin'

Hey Tryin. I truly hate to hear the cancer thing. I watched my wife suffer horribly with advanced stage breast cancer. It was a really tough 1 1/2 years for her AND me, but faith and attitude got us both through it. That 1 1/2 year period ended about 5 months ago, but it's still a "trial and correction" journey. I hope we can be of some good support for you here. I don't have cancer, but I feel like I experienced it full tilt with my wife. Suffering if suffering, right? You just hang on tight and keep on fighting! I bet your war against the meds has, in a weird way, made you super strong in now being able to deal with the cancer. I've learned a lot over the years from being on Klonopin for now over 21 1/2 years, been prescribed TONS of pychotropic meds and combinations of meds (finally weaned off all last December except Klonopin), institutionalized twice, shock therapy numerous times, lost jobs, yada, yada, yada. I was on 5mg+ Klonopin/day for 12-14 years (3mg/day before that) and then everything got even worse than ever. I got down to 3mg/day on my own without knowing anything about liquid titration, and just got on board with this program recently. I've been going really slow. Am at 2.62mg/day today and titrating .01 each day. May try to increase here in the next week. Just wanted some time to get used to it all. So, I'm new.

 

Miller, keep askin', brother!! I drove Sharkey, SG and Builder nuts forever before I finally got the balls to start LT. Trust me...if I can get the hang of it with my fried brain, then you'll be just fine!!

 

Group hug... 

I bet your war against the meds has, in a weird way, made you super strong in now being able to deal with the cancer.

 

That was one of the first thing I told my wife and kids, if I can make through all of the crap I have in the past two years I can make it through this.

 

Thanks for the kind words Ultra...means a lot

Hi,

 

 

I see my doctor every three months right now. At first it was every month until he saw that I was getting lower in my dose.  He also was my detox doctor.(My pain management doctor who prescribed the pills told me that I was just blocking my ability to get off in three months and was in so much pain, and he also told me that some people just like to put a pill in their mouth and he told me to go back to the detox doctor) My detox doctor saw what he had done to me, so he pretty much agrees with anything I want because he admitted he doesn't know much about tapering benzos...only how to detox. I told him I couldn't cut anymore and that I was going to use milk, which he had never heard of but agreed to. He used to write a script with refills but now I have to call his office and they  call it in. He writes it for more than I need so I have a lot of extras. 

 

I've read some people don't tell their doctor they are tapering so they keep prescribing.

 

Good luck to you.

 

Grace

 

I am one of the people who have never told their doctor that I am going through withdrawal.  When I first came to BB I read too many stories of people having trouble with their doctor taking control of their withdrawal or not prescribing as needed.  I meet my doctor monthly and he thinks I am taking 1 mg/day.  So far the daily micro-taper has allowed me to have a relatively smooth withdrawal and I certainly haven't had any symptoms that presented while meeting the doctor.  I am sure the discussion will be interesting when I end my appointments.

A month has passed and I was able to dry cut from 3mg K to 2 mg. I finally really want to start doing liquid reductions. I will take the advice of dosing the liquid (whole milk) without a reduction for one week to get used to it. Once again please help. I have a 10ml syringe and a 1ml. I understand I can make a 50ml solution in any container (I'll use a small ball jar) by doing five draws on the 10ml syringe. Now once again please recommend a reduction amount. I assume I will be then using the 1ml syringe. How about something in the middle ground. i would rate my personal sensitivity to reductions to 5 on a scale of 10, if that makes any sense. Thanks, Chip

Generic is fine.  What's important is to be consistent.  And 1mg pills will be fine too.

 

So 1mg pills @ 3mg per day of K.  I forgot to ask how many doses, but I'll assume two.  What I'd suggest is liquifying just one pill at a time.  Put a 1mg pill into an empty jar.  Cover, place in fridge, let it sit and shake once in awhile.  Dose this way for a week or two.  When ready to cut at your dose I'd recommend removing .003mg per day.  The amount of liquid this is depends on how much liquid you used.  For example, if you used 50ml it would be .15ml.  You can likely cut faster than this, but this is where I would begin.

 

Instead of .003mg a day I'd suggest .0025mg (.125ml) to start.

 

You dropped 1mg in a month and you feel okay?  That is .033mg per day.  Incredibly fast, even for a high dose.

 

 

Still need help. Thanks for all the info on liquid, I understand it. But I've decided I want to start a taper from 2mg Klonopin with my scale and a file. My 1 mg pills weigh .0204. Clona suggested a starting point but I can't find the info going back. What would be a good dry cut micro dalily cut rate?. And a question? If I took .001 off one pill per day would the taper be over in 200 days? Does that make sense? Thanks

Scale and pill filing are limited and not as accurate as liquids, but I understand the desire to stay with dry pills and at high dose that method does work better.

 

A 1mg pill weighing .204g means the smallest cut you can make on a .001g scale is .0049mg K.  To get the .0025mg daily cut rate I suggested before you would cut .001g every other day.  You may be able to move quicker than this, but it is a good starting point to establish a successful cut.

 

To answer your question, you have two pills each weighing .204g so that is .408g in pill weight to get rid of.  So it would take 408 days if you removed .001g per day.  You are at a high dose and it typically takes 18-30 months to properly taper 2mg K.  Anything is possible, but I would not expect to come in under a year.

 

sg57  I don't understand the difference between the  .0025 number  and the suggested cut rate of .001 .    When I try to file the 1 mg pill what should I try to make it weigh?  And why do you suggest every other day instead of every day if it is such a small amount.  I think Clona suggested starting at . 096 and going down by one increment per day as in .195, '194  etc.  Thanks

Cutting .001g from your pill is not a small amount.  Each .001g on the scale equals .0049mg K.  That is a lot for a daily cut.

 

My understanding is you are currently at 2mg K and you have two 1mg pills each weighing .204g and dosing twice a day.  If that's wrong let me know.

 

What you might do is make your weights do this...

 

now .204/.204

d1 .203/.204

d2 .203/.204

d3 .203/.203

d4 .203/.203

d5 .202/.203

d6 .202/.203

d7 .202/.202

and so on...

 

This would be a .0025mg/day cut rate.  If this works well you could then move to cutting 2/holding 1.  That would be a .0033mg/day rate.

 

BTW, if you could get .5mg pills your cut accuracy would immediately double.