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You first weigh one of your pills (you told me your pill weighed 0.06 grams).

Then, we know each pill has 0.5mg of drug in it.

 

Let X = the weight on your scale of whatever chuck of pill you put on it.

 

Then your drug in mg = X times 0.5 divided by 0.06

 

Ohhh okay got it!! You're the best Bob thanks! So I guess thats why i'm not really feeling like the transition was "smooth" or like the valium is evening out. My worst symptoms are loss of sleep, adrenaline surges, heightened anxiety, nausea, light/sound sensitivity and head tightness. Im probably already in withdrawal and will probably take forever to "stabilize" and i'm never updosing , so I figure i'll keep trucking through and tapering cause i'm already in the hell. I also am suspected to have POTS but I believe its alllllll this benzo. Either way, I know getting this stuff out my system is still a great choice as literally since i've started the valium I was instantly bed bound and have been since (april 9th) i say why stop now....might as well keep the train moving i'm at 5.6mg total split in 3 doses/day

There was one time in my year long taper where I tapered too fast.

The anxiety symptoms were extreme.

My doctor gave me Buspar which I used for perhaps 4 to 8 weeks while I held my taper constant.

It took about 8 weeks before the symptoms were tolerable enough to continue my taper.  At that point, I stopped the buspar with no problems.

 

Wow that was quite a feat 1 year! I will ask my doctor about buspar because I definitely need a rescue option. I was even gonna try re-onboarding citalopram (took it 2017-2021 and cold turkeyed not knowing any better hence how I ended up in this hell today) but 4 days in I realized that was a HORRIBLE idea and stopped.

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Sorry to disturb you. I just needed you to help me with my calculstion because i m very bad in maths. On 1st may i will start tapering again: 0.1mg in 100ml of water. Then i will be left with 0.3mg divided in 3 doses per day. Could you please tell me how much water i should mix for every 0.1mg left in order to keep my daily microtaper more or less stable and don't exceed in speed?

For example.... 0.1mg in 120ml? Then when i ll be at 0.2mg... 0.1mg in 150ml? I am ust throwing numbers hee and there because i dont know how to proceed wheni will be at 0.3mg let.i fugured out till 0.3mg but then i m lost. Once i will be at 0.3 3 times per day i will taper the afternoon dose and i need to know ow much water i should add.

Does this make sense?

Thank you very much.

 

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Salazer77,

 

You will have to give more careful information in order to be safe.

 

What is your Benzo?

What is the dose in each pill (written on the pill bottle).

If you are using a scale, what is the weight of the pill.

How exactly are you currently taking the drug?

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Thank you for your reply. I am using a liquid clonazepam form and I take 0.1 mg (0.1ml/one drop) in the morning, 0.1 in the afternoom and 0.2 in the evening. My taper was not linear but after a long hold i calculated that by tackling my evening dose (drinking one drop and then tapering the other drop/ml) in 100ml of water i will do a reduction of 0.00100 mg daily per 100 days roughly. Then I will be left with 0.3mg klonopin daily, equivalent to 0.3ml, divided in three doses (morning, afternoon, evening). I will start tapering the afternoon dose...how much water to dilute the 0.1ml/equivalent to one drop in order to stay at a reduction rate between 0.278% and 0.333%..i just know 100 ml of water won' t be good as i will be rushing but seriously i don't know how to do that and i m scared i could miscalculate and mess things up.
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Hello Salazar77.  To help Bob7 help you …

 

Are you still using the 2.5mg/mL Rivotril oral clonazepam solution from Roche?

 

Are you also still using the graduated dropper that comes with the medicine for your measuring device (1 drop of the solution contains 0.1mg of clonazepam)?

 

 

 

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Hello Salazar77.  To help Bob7 help you …

 

Are you still using the 2.5mg/mL Rivotril oral clonazepam solution from Roche?

 

Are you also still using the graduated dropper that comes with the medicine for your measuring device (1 drop of the solution contains 0.1mg of clonazepam)?

 

Yes, exactly that. Sorry for being dumb lol but i cannot proceed in calculating. I dont know if, for example,  diluting 0.ml in 120 ml, then 150, then 300 would be reasonable

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Libertas,

 

Thank you for chiming in.  Perhaps I should let you lead this one as you know more about liquid benzo solutions.

 

Salazar77,

 

If Libertas is unable to take over the lead here, my next question would be to ask, is your objective to reduce 1 drop over a period of 100 days?

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My objective is to do a safe taper. Unfortunately i didnt get on well with a cut and hold method so i did a liquid daily microtaper from 0.7 mg to the actual 0.4mg. I did it diluting 0.1ml in 50 ml of water, then 0.1 ml in 75ml, and now 0.1 ml in 100ml of water. Doing that now (reducing one drop in 100 days going from 0.4 to 0.3) i m pretty sure i was reducing at a rate of (roughly) 0.333% daily and it was considered a slow taper. But now i need to figure out how much water i should use for the remaining 0.3ml in order to taper safely. Knowing that i should go slower once i will reach my 0.3ml dose (split in 3) i need to know how much water i should use for the 3 doses
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I like what you did.

 

I like how you increased you water 25 mL for each new 0.1 taper (i.e. 50, then 75, then 100 mL).

 

I will compute the percentage math for you if you want to use 125 mL of water for you next 0.1 drop.  That will take you 125 days to taper, correct?

 

Remember, the percentages change during your taper.

 

So diluting 0.1 into 125 mL of water, you will have this:

-On day 1 of this new taper, your reduction will be 0.33%

-On day 125 of this new taper, your reduction will be 0.5%

 

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Yes, correct, but that is my point as i m not good in math. If, for example, i will dilute 0.1ml in 125 ml, then i will dilute 0.1ml in 150ml, then the last 0.1ml in 150ml will i be following a 0.3% trduction daily? Would that be considered a safe taper or sone of you wpuld consider it too fast?
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Most people say taper 5 to 10% every 10 days.

 

So you might say 3.33% every 10 days (your 0.333% per day) is safe.

 

If you always want to start each new reduction at 0.333%, then:

 

For your first 0.1 reduction, use 100 mL of water.

For you second 0.1 reduction, use 150 mL of water

For your last 0.1 reduction, use 300 mL of water

 

But that is going to take you 550 days.

 

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Bob7 and Salazar77:  You’ve been busy!  While I was composing a response off-line, it looks like you’ve come up with a plan.  However, I will share my response below in hopes it might add value.  As you’ll read, Salazar77, you are the only one who can determine what a ‘safe’ taper rate is for you.

 

Libertas

 

Hello again, Salazar77.

 

Rather than spending time and energy thinking about what concentration of liquid to use 100 days from now, might I suggest that you focus instead on the task at hand?  That is implementing, monitoring, and — if needed — making adjustments in the next 100 days of your taper plan?  This approach will also help you discover what taper rate works for you; this in turn, will help you/us determine what, if any, changes you need to make in the concentration of your liquid.

 

If I’ve understood you correctly, your plan is to reduce your dose by a fixed amount (0.001mg) every day for 100 days.  Here’s what your total daily dose will be at Day 30, 60, 90, and 100 along with the corresponding monthly taper rate:

 

Starting total daily dose: 0.4mg

Dose on Day 30: 0.37mg (taper rate = 7.5% over 30 days)

Dose on Day 60: 0.34mg (taper rate = 8.1% over 30 days)

Dose on Day 90: 0.31mg (taper rate = 8.8% over 30 days)

Dose on Day 100: 0.30mg

 

Note that your monthly taper rate will increase over time.  Some individuals can tolerate such increases whereas others cannot. The only way to know is to perform an experiment with yourself as the subject.

 

Have you been keeping a daily taper journal?  Do you rate your symptoms and functionality on a daily basis (see note below). If so, you will be able to graph these two data sets.  An increase in symptoms and/or a decrease in functionality could be used as indicators that an adjustment in your taper plan is needed (e.g. holding your dose constant for a period of time and/or reducing your taper rate).

 

Note: A simple rating scale for symptoms might be: 0 = no symptoms, 10 = intolerable symptoms.  One for functionality might be: 0 = no issues performing essential daily tasks, 10 = unable to perform any essential daily tasks.

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Most people say taper 5 to 10% every 10 days.

 

So you might say 3.33% every 10 days (your 0.333% per day) is safe.

 

If you always want to start each new reduction at 0.333%, then:

 

For your first 0.1 reduction, use 100 mL of water.

For you second 0.1 reduction, use 150 mL of water

For your last 0.1 reduction, use 300 mL of water

 

But that is going to take you 550 days.

Ok so basically once I will be down to 0.3ml per day (0.1/0.1/0.1) and assuming i will start to taper the afternoon dose it will take 100 days, then I will start with the morning one and it will take 150 days, then the last dose it will take 300 days, right? Would you considerit too slow or ok? Or should I rush things up?

Considering that ecen dosing makes me feel sick and I have no relief whatsoever I would be tempted to throw everything in the bin and go cold turkey but I know that it is not recommended.

So this process of 100 days/150 days/300 days would be reasonable? Or would you suggest something different?

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Libertas - sorry your message was in between the other ones.  It sucks when that happens.  I appreciate you chiming in.  This is hard because I fear Salazar might be going so slow.

 

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Bob7 and Salazar77:  You’ve been busy!  While I was composing a response off-line, it looks like you’ve come up with a plan.  However, I will share my response below in hopes it might add value.  As you’ll read, Salazar77, you are the only one who can determine what a ‘safe’ taper rate is for you.

 

Libertas

 

Hello again, Salazar77.

 

Rather than spending time and energy thinking about what concentration of liquid to use 100 days from now, might I suggest that you focus instead on the task at hand?  That is implementing, monitoring, and — if needed — making adjustments in the next 100 days of your taper plan?  This approach will also help you discover what taper rate works for you; this in turn, will help you/us determine what, if any, changes you need to make in the concentration of your liquid.

 

If I’ve understood you correctly, your plan is to reduce your dose by a fixed amount (0.001mg) every day for 100 days.  Here’s what your total daily dose will be at Day 30, 60, 90, and 100 along with the corresponding monthly taper rate:

 

Starting total daily dose: 0.4mg

Dose on Day 30: 0.37mg (taper rate = 7.5% over 30 days)

Dose on Day 60: 0.34mg (taper rate = 8.1% over 30 days)

Dose on Day 90: 0.31mg (taper rate = 8.8% over 30 days)

Dose on Day 100: 0.30mg

 

Note that your monthly taper rate will increase over time.  Some individuals can tolerate such increases whereas others cannot. The only way to know is to perform an experiment with yourself as the subject.

 

Have you been keeping a daily taper journal?  Do you rate your symptoms and functionality on a daily basis (see note below). If so, you will be able to graph these two data sets.  An increase in symptoms and/or a decrease in functionality could be used as indicators that an adjustment in your taper plan is needed (e.g. holding your dose constant for a period of time and/or reducing your taper rate).

 

Note: A simple rating scale for symptoms might be: 0 = no symptoms, 10 = intolerable symptoms.  One for functionality might be: 0 = no issues performing essential daily tasks, 10 = unable to perform any essential daily tasks.

 

Thank you Libertas. Well, i am not keeping a journal but I know that once i came close to 0.4mg i was hit by a lot of new symptoms I didnt have before: headaches (pressure, dizziness) and nausea, dry retching, while the ones i had before like burning skin disappeared. So i decided to hold at 0.4mg. But i havent resumed my taper since september trying to stabilize. I never really did so i am thinking to myself "should i be waiting forever or should i go on tapering?". Considering that 8 months werent enough to make these symptoms disappear, considering that i ve always been sick even after dosing and that i never had any relief whatsoever while taking klonopin, i guess this waiting is useless and that it would be better to proceed. And if the plan suggested is reasonable i could try it (consider also that my doctors are pushing me to discard half of my dose immediately, and all the remaining part by the end of the year... and THAT is not reasonable

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Salazar77,

 

Everyone is different.

But I do think you are going about 2 or 3 time slower than I would.

 

As Libertas says, keep a journal so you can notice if things are getting worse and then adjust your speed.

 

You asked what I would do.

I would do the following:

 

First, stop worrying about percent's.  They are misleading. Remember, the last day of your taper, you are reducing 100%, no mater how you do it.

 

Second, consider this.

 

Each morning put 3 drops into 300 mL of water, mix well, and throw away 1 mL of the mixture.

Drink 1/3 of the mixture 3 times a day (or save it all for bedtime if sleep is your biggest issue)

 

Each day remove one additional ml of the mixture (so you are done in 300 days).

 

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Libertas - sorry your message was in between the other ones.  It sucks when that happens.  I appreciate you chiming in.  This is hard because I fear Salazar might be going so slow.

 

Ah the joys of asynchronous communication! I’m a proponent of the ‘two heads are better than one’ approach to providing member support so appreciate your input as well (although I do respectfully disagree with you about the importance of monitoring taper rate/percent reductions ;)).

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Thank you both for your response. The idea of diluting 3 drops in 300ml and discard one ml each day and divide the remaining part in 3 cups is smart though i dont know how to divide them equally. I ll try to figure out.

As for the symptoms i think i should just proceed because i havent stabilized in 8 long months

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Thank you both for your response. The idea of diluting 3 drops in 300ml and discard one ml each day and divide the remaining part in 3 cups is smart though i dont know how to divide them equally. I ll try to figure out.

As for the symptoms i think i should just proceed because i havent stabilized in 8 long months

 

You are welcome, Salazar77. 

 

Re: dividing the 300ml into 3 parts …

 

Your current dose ratio is 1:1:2.  If you wish to keep this ratio, you would divide the diluted liquid accordingly. For example, at 300mL, you would divide the liquid into 75mL, 75mL, and 150mL portions.  If you decide to change to three equal doses per day (a 1:1:1 ratio; see Note under Item 1 below), you would divide the liquid into 100mL, 100mL, and 100mL portions.

 

Might I suggest several risk reduction strategies for your consideration if you decide to implement this approach?

 

(1) You would be making a change in dosage form (i.e. from taking the unmodified form of your medication in combination with modified/diluted liquid to taking your entire dose in modified/diluted form).  Some individuals react to this type of change. To determine how you will react, I suggest you switch to the diluted liquid but hold your dose constant (i.e. do not make a reduction in dose) until you are confident you are stable on the modified liquid. Then, begin making reductions.

 

Note: Changing your dosing ratio from 1:1:2 to 1:1:1 constitutes another type of taper change.  If you make this change at the same time you change your dosing form and experience issues, please be aware you will not be able to determine what might be causing the issue(s) (i.e. they may be due to the dosing form change, the dosing ratio change, or a combination thereof). 

 

(2) Set up and start keeping a daily taper journal (see my previous post; I’ve also included a link below where you can learn more about why a taper journal is key to a successful taper). Graph and review the data in your journal every two weeks or at least every month.  If you detect a trend in your symptoms or functionality levels, you may need to hold your dose constant and/or modify your taper rate by adjusting the amount of your daily reduction (downward if the trend is negative, upward if the trend is positive).

 

(3) Shake the modified/diluted liquid well and measure your reduction quickly.  Studies have shown that diazepam and lorazepam precipitate out of solution at certain dilutions.  It’s entirely possible that clonazepam does as well.  This means that your diluted liquid may not be a true solution but rather a hybrid solution/suspension.  Shaking will distribute any drug precipitate as evenly as possible; measuring quickly will allow you to ‘capture’ drug precipitate before it settles out of suspension (water is a very poor suspending vehicle due to its low viscosity).

 

To wrap things up …

 

Given that the drug does not appear to be helping you (and is indeed causing you issues), your conclusion that you should begin tapering is logical.

 

As you taper, please be aware you will likely experience withdrawal symptoms.  The goal of tapering is to keep those withdrawal symptoms in the tolerable range by monitoring your taper rate and adjusting it as needed. Consequently, I strongly encourage you to keep a daily taper journal and review it on a regular basis.

 

Link:

Setting Up a Taper Journal | The Withdrawal Project

https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/taper/step-19-setting-taper-journal

 

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Thank you both for your response. The idea of diluting 3 drops in 300ml and discard one ml each day and divide the remaining part in 3 cups is smart though i dont know how to divide them equally. I ll try to figure out. 

 

Thank you for your long reply. I was thinking to filute just one drop of the eveing dose andnonce i will be done with that i vould filute all the remaining 3 parts in 300ml and divide then (hopefully i could divide them in 3 equsl doses

 

As for the symptoms i think i should just proceed because i havent stabilized in 8 long months

 

 

You are welcome, Salazar77. 

 

Re: dividing the 300ml into 3 parts …

 

Your current dose ratio is 1:1:2.  If you wish to keep this ratio, you would divide the diluted liquid accordingly. For example, at 300mL, you would divide the liquid into 75mL, 75mL, and 150mL portions.  If you decide to change to three equal doses per day (a 1:1:1 ratio; see Note under Item 1 below), you would divide the liquid into 100mL, 100mL, and 100mL portions.

 

Might I suggest several risk reduction strategies for your consideration if you decide to implement this approach?

 

(1) You would be making a change in dosage form (i.e. from taking the unmodified form of your medication in combination with modified/diluted liquid to taking your entire dose in modified/diluted form).  Some individuals react to this type of change. To determine how you will react, I suggest you switch to the diluted liquid but hold your dose constant (i.e. do not make a reduction in dose) until you are confident you are stable on the modified liquid. Then, begin making reductions.

 

Note: Changing your dosing ratio from 1:1:2 to 1:1:1 constitutes another type of taper change.  If you make this change at the same time you change your dosing form and experience issues, please be aware you will not be able to determine what might be causing the issue(s) (i.e. they may be due to the dosing form change, the dosing ratio change, or a combination thereof). 

 

(2) Set up and start keeping a daily taper journal (see my previous post; I’ve also included a link below where you can learn more about why a taper journal is key to a successful taper). Graph and review the data in your journal every two weeks or at least every month.  If you detect a trend in your symptoms or functionality levels, you may need to hold your dose constant and/or modify your taper rate by adjusting the amount of your daily reduction (downward if the trend is negative, upward if the trend is positive).

 

(3) Shake the modified/diluted liquid well and measure your reduction quickly.  Studies have shown that diazepam and lorazepam precipitate out of solution at certain dilutions.  It’s entirely possible that clonazepam does as well.  This means that your diluted liquid may not be a true solution but rather a hybrid solution/suspension.  Shaking will distribute any drug precipitate as evenly as possible; measuring quickly will allow you to ‘capture’ drug precipitate before it settles out of suspension (water is a very poor suspending vehicle due to its low viscosity).

 

To wrap things up …

 

Given that the drug does not appear to be helping you (and is indeed causing you issues), your conclusion that you should begin tapering is logical.

 

As you taper, please be aware you will likely experience withdrawal symptoms.  The goal of tapering is to keep those withdrawal symptoms in the tolerable range by monitoring your taper rate and adjusting it as needed. Consequently, I strongly encourage you to keep a daily taper journal and review it on a regular basis.

 

Link:

Setting Up a Taper Journal | The Withdrawal Project

https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/taper/step-19-setting-taper-journal

 

Edit: Fixed quote.

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Thank you Libertas. Well, i am not keeping a journal but I know that once i came close to 0.4mg i was hit by a lot of new symptoms I didnt have before: headaches (pressure, dizziness) and nausea, dry retching, while the ones i had before like burning skin disappeared. So i decided to hold at 0.4mg. But i havent resumed my taper since september trying to stabilize. I never really did so i am thinking to myself "should i be waiting forever or should i go on tapering?". Considering that 8 months werent enough to make these symptoms disappear, considering that i ve always been sick even after dosing and that i never had any relief whatsoever while taking klonopin, i guess this waiting is useless and that it would be better to proceed. And if the plan suggested is reasonable i could try it (consider also that my doctors are pushing me to discard half of my dose immediately, and all the remaining part by the end of the year... and THAT is not reasonable

 

Hi Salazar77,

 

I just took a look at the link Libertas provided to the Inner Compass Withdrawal Project about keeping a journal, wow, I knew how important this effort was but I'm even more convinced of the necessity.  We tell members to use their symptoms to guide their taper and using a journal practically provides a roadmap for you when making decisions about reducing or holding so I'm hoping you've started one to help you on the rest of your taper journey.  https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/taper/step-19-setting-taper-journal

 

So much of this process is about experimentation but if you can eliminate some of the pain of experimenting on yourself I think it's worth the effort to do this, I hope you agree.  I do think its important to pay attention to your percentages, I've watched too many members blindly follow a taper plan they laid out in advance not realizing their reductions are actually growing larger because they're making them based on the original amount of the medication.  I understand you're not doing this but its a good idea to doublecheck every once in awhile just to be on the safe side.  :thumbsup:

 

Pamster

 

 

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Thank you Libertas. Well, i am not keeping a journal but I know that once i came close to 0.4mg i was hit by a lot of new symptoms I didnt have before: headaches (pressure, dizziness) and nausea, dry retching, while the ones i had before like burning skin disappeared. So i decided to hold at 0.4mg. But i havent resumed my taper since september trying to stabilize. I never really did so i am thinking to myself "should i be waiting forever or should i go on tapering?". Considering that 8 months werent enough to make these symptoms disappear, considering that i ve always been sick even after dosing and that i never had any relief whatsoever while taking klonopin, i guess this waiting is useless and that it would be better to proceed. And if the plan suggested is reasonable i could try it (consider also that my doctors are pushing me to discard half of my dose immediately, and all the remaining part by the end of the year... and THAT is not reasonable

 

Hi Salazar77,

 

I just took a look at the link Libertas provided to the Inner Compass Withdrawal Project about keeping a journal, wow, I knew how important this effort was but I'm even more convinced of the necessity.  We tell members to use their symptoms to guide their taper and using a journal practically provides a roadmap for you when making decisions about reducing or holding so I'm hoping you've started one to help you on the rest of your taper journey.  https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/taper/step-19-setting-taper-journal

 

So much of this process is about experimentation but if you can eliminate some of the pain of experimenting on yourself I think it's worth the effort to do this, I hope you agree.  I do think its important to pay attention to your percentages, I've watched too many members blindly follow a taper plan they laid out in advance not realizing their reductions are actually growing larger because they're making them based on the original amount of the medication.  I understand you're not doing this but its a good idea to doublecheck every once in awhile just to be on the safe side.  :thumbsup:

 

Pamster

 

I will, Pamster, I think it is important and it s kind of therapeutic. The thing that scares me is that i have symptoms lasting since july, they havent subsided, and i am not tapering since september so of course i am anxious that maybe tapering could get things worse or msybe not. Or maybe i am one of the unlucky who need to be medicated for the rest of their lives... after all i ve been on benzos for 20 years and even tough i ve been on klonopin "only" since february 2020, the total amount was 20 years. Anyway klonopin differred from the other benzos i took because it made me immediately sick so i hope that msybe 300 days tapering will be a relief for me. But, again, who knows?

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Thank you for your long reply. I was thinking to filute just one drop of the eveing dose andnonce i will be done with that i vould filute all the remaining 3 parts in 300ml and divide then (hopefully i could divide them in 3 equsl doses

 

You are welcome, Salazar77.  My apologies for the lengthy reply but I sensed you might benefit from additional information regarding the use of modified medication forms, how to make taper changes, and the importance of monitoring symptoms and functionality to determine if adjustments in taper rate may be needed.

 

I am delighted you plan to follow Pamster’s advice about keeping a daily taper journal.  As she wisely observed, tapering is an experiment in which you are both the subject and the scientist.  Collecting and analyzing data are core components of experimentation. In the case of tapering, your journal is your primary data collection tool and data source.  It can be quite simple — key data points to include are the date, the amount and time(s) of your doses, and numerical ratings of your symptoms and functionality.

 

Your two-stage approach to tapering looks solid to me.  It will allow you to discover what taper rate is ‘just right’ for you during the first stage which can then be used to inform your taper plan for the second stage.

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Thank you Libertas. And thank you all. Of course everyone is different and everyone need to tailor his own strategy based on his needs. I dont know if many started or continued their taper through pletoras of symptoms or while their cns was as sensitive as mine. I guess some hold and some continued. I m stuck in a situation where the suffering has nearly got me to the ER and my stress level is through the roof because of life stressors and the continuing worry about this drug and all the anxiety/symptoms I have daily. I will keep my journal and I will try to stick to it the best I could but I also know that everyday is a very long and harsh struggle. I really hoped this 8 months hold time could have helped me but it had not and I am on my knees now for the severity of my symptoms and the related anxiety.

So i dont know how i will discover if my taper rate is right or not because i m in bits already.

But then again... i have just few options: being overmedicated, hold again or taper.

No other options.

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hello,

I daily micro tapering with scale and was curious is anyone is using an analytical scale with four decimal points to the right (instead of the typical three, so .0001.

 

Thank you

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