Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

Is this what you've been working on, is it finished?

Is this what you've been working on, is it finished?

 

It's one version.  I keep meaning to make a video to explain/review it.

slownsteady: As far as I’ve been able to determine, we do not have members who have used methylcellulose to make a homebrew clonazepam liquid. (We do have members who have used methylcelluose as a diluent in conjunction with the “grind tablets into powder and weigh” dry microtapering method.)

 

I wonder if the formulation your compounding pharmacist referenced is this one:

 

https://compoundingtoday.com/Formulation/Formula.cfm

(Enter clonazepam in the search box.)

 

If so, the formulation contains more than just methylcellulose and clonazepam.

 

If you wish to pursue using methylcellulose, might I encourage you to ask your compounding pharmacist if s/he would be willing to provide more information? In addition to ingredients, it would be helpful to know about recommended preparation procedures and storage conditions as well as whether or not the formulation has been stability tested.

Thanks for the SS badsocref! It's really an impressive tool you've created, particularly for a dry or wet only DMT. I'm going to play around with it more today. I have had a very hard time quantifying my daily symptoms, despite numerous efforts; they change so much during the day, my windows and waves are sometimes only a few hours long so the day becomes a mash-up. But it's a great idea, and I treasure the math you put into it! If this SS was to be a good tool for me, I might be willing to do a dry DMT. I'm really grateful you shared this with me! 

 

Libertas! Thanks for your reply. That's unfortunate other members don't have more experience with methyl cellulose liquid suspensions. I will definitely call my compounding pharmacist back and ask what other ingredients are in their mix. I understand a commercial formula would include a variety of preservatives, since the shelf-life is usually 60 days or so. But since I'm mixing my own, I don't mind making a weekly batch and keeping it in the fridge.

 

Colin had a great post, somewhere around here about how the water and milk liquid methods all depend on suspension of the benzo; basically just increasing the viscosity (such as with full fat homogenized milk) increased the evenness of dispersion (someone was even mentioning jello). Methyl cellulose is cheap, food grade, indigestible, and a thickener; to me this seems to equal a very convenient suspension solution. In this brainstorm, I might add a little 180 proof grape alcohol to get both a bit of preservation and a little solvent action. Vegetable glycerin also comes to mind as a benign solvent/preservative. I know I'm off the deep end here, but I'd really like something as simple and non-toxic as possible (and I can't drink milk).

 

The hybrid liquid/tablet method and spreadsheet from the link I posted earlier has a "First Dose First" option; so basically there's only a single liquid dose a day, and the rest are just tablets. This seems to solve logistical/brain problems that would happen trying to take a liquid dose at night, and minimize the need to adjust to any weirdness with going from just tablets to just liquid. Again, all solved by a dry DMT, I know, but... these pipettes are lonely. 

 

The safety meter points to the dry DMT; the "things I have on hand and think I know about" meter points towards the homemade liquid and tablet hybrid. Hm...

I don't think that glycerine will be a good solvent.  It's a good thickener (like a gum), but too polar to effectively solubilize many drugs.  We tested a lot of cannabinoid glycerol tinctures over the years and it's really hard to get much drug dissolved into the glycerol unless other agents are also added.

My friend is an undergrad chem major, graduating this year; take that for what you want. He said that propylene glycol is very similar to vegetable glycerine in terms of solvent action. I've read numerous posts about propylene glycol (food-grade HOPEFULLY) being used successfully as a solvent for clonazepam. I also saw vegetable glycerine mentioned as a benzo dilutant here: http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/titration/titrationHelp.htm?help=Readme+First

 

"Amongst several liquids proposed to dilute benzo, we can find fatty milk, vodka, propylene glycol, ethanol, vegetable glycerin,..."

 

Proposed is definitely a key word in there. I'm not insisting, but the other mentions are known to work as either solvents or suspension agents. I'm happy to be better educated about these things, so don't hold back! 

I've dabbled in chemistry a bit over the years.  The dielectric constant for glycerol is substantially higher than that for PG.  PG's actually been tested for benzo solubility.  I'm not aware of any publications using glycerine.  Again using the THC/CBD analogy, PG works something like 9 times better than glycerol.  Maybe you can find a way to get it to work to some degree, but you're going to need an HPLC to quantify it.

Is this what you've been working on, is it finished?

 

It's one version.  I keep meaning to make a video to explain/review it.

 

A video would be awesome. Let us know if you ever create one!

Thank you badsocref. I'm going to take your word for it, and parrot this information to my chem buddy to see if he understands better. Does food-grade PG seem any safer to you than 180 proof grape alcohol? Is PG a better clonazapam solvent? I think I've read that somewhere but I'm forgetting.

 

The more we talk, the more I want to dry taper... 

I just need to get off my butt and do it.

Thank you badsocref. I'm going to take your word for it, and parrot this information to my chem buddy to see if he understands better. Does food-grade PG seem any safer to you than 180 proof grape alcohol? Is PG a better clonazapam solvent? I think I've read that somewhere but I'm forgetting.

 

The more we talk, the more I want to dry taper... 

 

As long as there's no sensitivity to alcohol, I think both are equally safe.  You only use a few mls to dissolve the benzo.  If you do a proper search, you can find publications on the solubilities of some benzos in alcohol and in PG.  I think 95% ethanol is a slightly better solvent than PG, but both will work.  90% (180 proof) alcohol might be similar to PG since it contains a little more water.  Ethanol is also way less viscous so I think it's a easier solvent to mix the pill into. 

 

PEG-400 is sometimes used in formulations, and it's really low polarity.  It might be worth checking out if you have the means.  It's also kind of viscous, so you'll have to give it some extra time to do the extraction.

slownsteady

 

Not sure if you've tried this, but full fat milk is soluble in Clonazepam and many use it for liquid titrations.

 

Maybe you can't do milk?

 

If you can, go check out Crazy Canuck's Youtube site and he has 3 videos on how to do the procedure etc.

 

Personally, I use PG and water with powered Ativan - my compounding pharmacy makes it up.

 

I tried alcohol, but couldn't do it at all.

 

Please disregard if this has already been discussed, I didn't go back that far in the thread.

 

Best, Winnie

Thanks for clarifying that badsocref! I am somewhat sensitive to alcohol, but I've managed tinctures doses before without noticeable harm. I've read to use 1mL of  ~180 proof alcohol per 1mg of benzo; would it be a similar ratio with PG?

 

I'd never heard of PEG400; I'm not sure how to judge if it's worth the trouble but it's on Amazon...

https://www.amazon.com/Polyethylene-Glycol-400-Grade-16oz/dp/B079ZBNSG3

 

Sorry WinnieDog; I'm definitely lactose intolerant. I think full fat milk is used because the homogenized fat helps keep the undissolved clonazepam in suspension for longer (i.e. better distributed); I think this is not the same as soluble. Thanks anyways!

slownsteady ...

 

Below are several of the studies badsocref referenced.  Please note the researchers used different ingredients, different equipment, and different procedures than what is available to most “kitchen chemists.”  Consequently, one should exercise considerable caution when using the findings to inform formulations for homebrew liquids.

 

Also, as noted in our Titration: FAQs, homebrew liquids have not been professionally analyzed. We do not know if they are solutions, suspensions, or “hybrids.” We also do not know how potent they are or if they remain stable over time. 

 

References:

 

Jouyban, Abolghasem; Shokri, Javad; Barzegar-Jalali, Mohammad; Hassanzadeh, Davoud; Acree, William E. (William Eugene); Ghafourian, Taravat et al. Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 303.2 K.

 

Shayanfar, Ali; Fakhree, Mohammad Amin Abolghassemi; Acree, William E. (William Eugene) & Jouyban, Abolghasem. Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 298.15 K.

 

Shayanfar, Ali; Acree, William E. (William Eugene) & Jouyban, Abolghasem. Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, Clonazepam, and Phenobarbital in Propylene Glycol + Water Mixtures at 298.15 K.

 

Thanks Libertas; I'm sorry but I really can't understand this or the other study you sent to my other thread about liquid clonazepam tapering. I've tried!  I'm just not able to understand the chemistry, and that could be a big sign about where to reign in this experimentation. I appreciate your effort to inform me; sorry about the impasse! 

You can add this to the list...

 

https://www.shd.org.rs/JSCS/Vol79/No4/06_5578_4598.pdf

 

This paper looks at PEG 400, PEG 600, PG mixes.

Do please heed Libertas' words about experimenting with new methods.  It's fun to talk about this stuff, but if you don't have the means (HPLC) to test your concoctions, I'd be very cautious about trying anything.

 

If your friend does have access to an HPLC, the assay for klonopin is very simple.

Thanks badsocref. I was aware of the need for caution, and I appreciate your clarity. I would not want you to feel responsible for me fooling around with my medicine. I'll have a nice chat with my compounding pharmacist about how simple a mix they can make for me, keep thinking (ideally on days UNLIKE today when I'm in WD), and maybe I'll go the dry taper route instead! Thanks for all your help. Same to you Libertas. 

You are welcome, slownsteady.  Please do let us know what you find out from your compounding pharmacist. It’s always helpful to learn about options.

 

PS fwiw ... you were wise to question the one-size-fits-all-benzos “recipe” in the online taper planning tool you found. My take is that it is not appropriate for all benzodiazepines, especially not clonazepam. Different benzodiazepines have different solubilities in different solvents. For example, the sources I’ve found indicate that clonazepam has a much lower solubility in both ethanol and propylene glycol compared to diazepam and lorazepam.

Thanks for clarifying that badsocref! I am somewhat sensitive to alcohol, but I've managed tinctures doses before without noticeable harm. I've read to use 1mL of  ~180 proof alcohol per 1mg of benzo; would it be a similar ratio with PG?

 

I'd never heard of PEG400; I'm not sure how to judge if it's worth the trouble but it's on Amazon...

https://www.amazon.com/Polyethylene-Glycol-400-Grade-16oz/dp/B079ZBNSG3

 

Sorry WinnieDog; I'm definitely lactose intolerant. I think full fat milk is used because the homogenized fat helps keep the undissolved clonazepam in suspension for longer (i.e. better distributed); I think this is not the same as soluble. Thanks anyways!

 

Years ago when I began this whole process I had a buddy of mine who's very much into engineering, chemistry etc tell me to use 2.5mL of 180 proof vodka for each 1mg k tablet. I'm sensitive even to a gnat's fart, so I have to be extremely careful about anything and everything that goes into or onto my body. It definitely worked for me as well as my other friends who are now off the benzo journey, but I know everyone is really different. Best to you!

For those doing a daily micro taper do you adjust your monthly reduction each month to fit your percentages? I was taught to find a daily rate that works and keep it the whole way down. In the beginning I was tapering .33 a month and it was about 3% but as my dose is getting smaller. I slowed two months ago to reduce by .27mg a month and it did help a little. That makes my monthly rate a 9% reduction. Right now I am reducing .27mg a month and my dose is 3mg. I am thinking of reducing to at least 5% but that may add another year to the taper. I am all ready going so much slower than most.

Big thanks to Ultra2007 for that ethanol ratio for K! I'm curious to give it a try.

 

Jlavogt, I'm not sure what you can handle, but my approach to DMT might be similar to a cut-and-hold; i.e. a 7% reduction of my current dose, over 14 days. Without a fancy spreadsheet to DMT I'd just calculate that 7% reduction in mg once every 14 days, then break that amount into 14 even chunks, and from that I'd find the mL or pill weight to remove for each day; then it's just knock off one more of those little bits per day for 14 days, rinse and repeat.

 

But if you use a fancy spreadsheet, or a site like http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/ I think you can get a more precise reduction each day. That 7% over 14 days would instead be 0.5% of the current dose, calculated and reduced on a per day basis. My math-wizardry is basic and I might have that wrong, but that's what I think is happening. Maybe other ACTUAL DMT users can write more; I've only been planning a DMT which will start next week, and I'm going to use the website mentioned above.

Just a quick follow up on my liquid K exploration and a question for experienced folk out there!

 

I recently found a great local compounding pharmacist, and she's going to mix me a 0.125mg/mL suspension solution with a suspending agent that's entirely medium-chain triglycerides (MCT oil), "various lipids", glycerol, and a vegetable-derived "bitter blocker". She offered natural flavors, but I declined. I was surprised because I've made plenty of cannabinoid MCT oil tinctures, but I never thought of using it as a suspension agent. Maybe this will get some gears turning for other folks on here; I wonder if MCT oil alone would be a decent suspension agent for crushed tablets.

 

The question: does digestion interfere with absorption of clonazepam? I took my medicine a few times with or soon after a meal, and got paranoid that the effect was noticeably reduced. I moved all my doses to 15-30 minutes before meals to avoid this possible interaction. Now I'm worried that taking a liquid dose with MCT oil would have a similarly reduced effect. Can someone set me straight? Or am right to be cautious about dose absorption and digestion having some interaction? (does this question belong in another thread?)

 

Thanks! 

Oil is a fine solvent.  Some pharmacists use oils for their liquid formulations.  As I understand it, the same set of enzymes metabolize oils and bento-like drugs (P450).  There are some individuals who have lower levels of these enzymes.  Taking the drug in oil (simultaneously) might mean a reduced ability to properly metabolize the drug until the competing oil is gone.

 

The same situation exists for cannabinoid oil tinctures (versus alcohol tinctures) and taking cannabinoids (and many other drugs) with meals.

 

I think the effect would be small for a 'normal' person.  There are some studies on it if you do some digging.

 

More info on cytochrome P450 enzymes here:  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21395540/

Always with the scientific studies! 

 

You mentioned oil as a solvent, which it is for cannabinoids; talking to the pharmacist, it didn't sound like oil would be a solvent in the case of clonazepam.

 

I was on relatively high doses of CBD for a little while, and I suspect my P450 enzymes were inhibited; I read that studies found CBD doses over 40mg/day start to have this inhibitory effect in the liver. I had trouble gaining weight at that point, but I never considered the P450s were also for metabolizing oils.

 

So it sounds like in individuals with lower enzyme levels the benzo will get digested in full, but at a slower rate? Bodies are so complicated... I eat a high fat and protein diet (I'm thin as a rail). Is there any way to increase these P450 enzymes?

 

At the end of the day, my goal is lower medicine over all; hopefully this MCT oil suspension will help me get there with lower sx. If not, there's always the ethanol homebrew!