Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

Hi,

I'd like to join this group, because hopefully I want to be able to do a daily micro taper. Right now I am transitioning from a .5 mg ATIVAN pill to 1 ML of liquid ATIVAN. As soon as I stabilize on the liquid (which should be shortly) I would like to begin to micro taper daily.  For the transition to liquid I am using a syringe that is 1 ML with 10 .1 ML incremental measurements marked on the body of the syringe. Between each .1 ML measurement there are lines that measure off in .02 ML amounts. I currently am taking 1 ML dosage a day, right before bedtime.

 

I am not sure how I should start micro tapering each day and how much should I taper each day? Do I need a syringe with smaller more detailed measurements so I can make smaller cuts? How many times each day should I be taking and cutting my dosage? 

 

I really appreciate any help and guidance anyone can provide me on this.

 

Thank you!

Well, you may get more answers by looking at the Planning Your Withdrawal/Titration board on the site here, but it just depends. This thread right here is the one that saved my life. Anyway, everybody is just so different and it's hard to say what's best for you as far as how much to taper daily, the method, etc. The "rule" out there is that it's best to shoot for a 5-10% reduction every couple of weeks or month, but there's no way I could've ever done that. I was lucky to ever do 1 or 2% reduction in any given month, but my case is/was kind of extreme. I can't give specifics on #'s and how you're to do the process, but to me the beauty of liquid titration is that I could really experiment with a super slow titration and then readjust quickly as needed. I have 1mg klonopin tablets, so I dissolve one tablet in about 2.5mL of vodka and then add about 97.5mL of water to get my solution. Then that would mean that 1mL of liquid would equal .01mg. I started a long time ago by trying to reduce .01mg/day, but no way that would happen for very long. I quickly cut that in half to where I'd cut about 1/2mL and maybe only every few days or even week(s). Seriously slow. You could get an idea of about how much you'd like to cut in a month and then divide that by 30 days to see how much that is per day. It's really not that difficult to figure out. There's someone here in BB's named Bob7 who is super with the math part of things. It may be worth a search. He's mainly done the dry cut method, but I think I remember that he's good in helping liquid titraters too. Personally, I spread my doses throughout the days just to try to avoid inter dose withdrawals, but if you're taking it all at once right now you may like to just keep things the way they are. Again, experimenting will help you find your path and you'll be fine. Try not to make too big a deal about it all and just go on with life as normally as you can. Keep the faith!! It'll happen.

Jeff

Hi,

I would like to join this group too. I started a liquid taper jan 1st. I haven't t been feeling good. My stomach is a mess and I get bad inner trembling at night with inner tension not sure what it is but its awful. Ive only made 12 cuts. Im feel ok now. Im not sure if im going to fast. Im new to liquid so im nervous. Do I keep going. I would really appreciate any advice or what you guys do. Immnot even cutting much I cant believe how I can feel it unless its all in my head.

Hi,

I would like to join this group too. I started a liquid taper jan 1st. I haven't t been feeling good. My stomach is a mess and I get bad inner trembling at night with inner tension not sure what it is but its awful. Ive only made 12 cuts. Im feel ok now. Im not sure if im going to fast. Im new to liquid so im nervous. Do I keep going. I would really appreciate any advice or what you guys do. Immnot even cutting much I cant believe how I can feel it unless its all in my head.

'When all else fails, do nothing'. I was told that a ton of times when I first began the taper process. So, if you're not doing well, then maybe hold where you are until sx start to decrease. You're body is obviously trying to tell you something. Don't push it, try to relax, and just roll with the current situation. It'll probably settle down if you step back a bit and let things play out. You'll get there!

Thank you Utra!

Your right its getting to much and the  internal tremors scare me. Im going to hold for a bit and regroup, This takes so long, ugh.

Back to visit and commiserate with old friends - but I'm sure many who were here in 2019 when I was last here have gone on to other threads or are benzo-free by now (damn lucky dogs).

I haven't even scanned the main board yet. Actually afraid of seeing the list of myriad topics. I have to keep things very simple and as familiar as I can these days.

Just wondered if anyone else lost as much ground in tapering off as I did during the horrors of 2020/21. More than a year of pandemic raging and mutating into possibly more dangerous forms, making me afraid that any human being I encounter might unwittingly make me sick or even die (I'm 69 and live alone with my cat), "new norms" of incessant top-level blatant lying, bullying, recklessness, and such violence and open hatred as I've never seen before...well, you all know.

I swore off the news, but it kept slapping me in the face, e.g., just checking my e-mail, I was first forced to see what horror had occurred that day. Then I couldn't keep myself from finding out the whole story (as my very life might depend on it) and ended up in excruciating nauseous anxiety and despair over what was happening to the whole world.

I had gotten my 15-year xanax dependence down from its all-time high of 6+mg a day to 3mg by the end of 2019, but as 2020 progressed, my weltschmerz, my constant anxiety and fear, had me chugging xanax to just get a grip and make it through each day without "losing it".  By January 7th, 2021, I was back up to 6mg xanax and 10mg of valium (to help me sleep - valium seemed to suppress the nightmares - valium supposedly does interfere more with REM - dreaming - sleep. For now, that's a godsend.) I've struggled to get the xanax back down to 4mg, but not without some bad w/d symptoms. Fighting to not take that next milligram at the moment.

Anyhow, has this happened to anyone else? Hate being the only neurotic "basket case" who's lost their grip on tapering during the year from hell.

I'm sitting here alone and snowed in - my mid-US area just having experienced record cold (-20°F/-29°C. 40°F/C below the average for this time of year). The whole world is at a standstill - even the mailman has been unable to make it into the neighborhood with important deliveries that are now a week late...my garbage hasn't been picked up for just as long. There is no way I can even step out of the house for a walk, and it would be impossible to drive in this snow yet unplowed.

Thanks for letting me vent. I don't really expect any replies.

Dehytq2,

Sorry to hear you are feeling bad.  What do you do for your liquid tapering?  I will just tell you that there are several of us that tried to liquid taper with Klonopin and could not, for whatever reason.  I personally wonder if you are not having a reaction to that. Perhaps I'm wrong but I just thought I would throw that out there as it was horrific for me.  I tried water, the homemade vodka.  I didn't try milk because at that time, I couldn't handle milk.  I know others who have done well with the homemade liquid - I was so upset when I had a bad reaction.  I have done really well with the prescription Valium though.  So individual and maddening. 

Ailuron,

2020 was a rough year!  You are not alone and there are bound to be many who lost ground just as there have been many who started up benzos during this time.  I did not come to fear the virus so much as the impact of the virus - stressful all around for all.  The political climate here in the US is extremely hard and I broke down crying several times -- like you, I would vow to stay away only to be sucked back in.  The media has been "so good" to us (sarcasm) - doesn't seem to matter which side you are on, they stoke the flames.  Anyhow, it has taken a lot of willpower for me to disconnect from news, disconnect and delete social media accounts, and turn my attentions towards other things to distract.  However, by doing so, it has helped a lot.  I'm sorry you lost ground.  Hang in there.

Hi Momof7babies,

Maybe thats it. Im doing water. Sometimes inthink i felt better just chopping of pieces and waiting to stabilize. I dont knowvhow someone could keep lowering everyday. I always had bad sx. Anyway because I was so bad before I found bb. Ugh. Its the mental sx. There awful. This is maddening,  ill be happy when im off and not have to make these tapering decisions anymore. I feel sort of ok today. I just want to keep going over and analyzing my thoughts. Its driving me crazy. Thats probably ocd. Ugh. Going to hold for a bit. Plus, I know that I def lost ground due to the virus, political climate. I try to stay of way from the media and deleted my fb. Im doing like you and turning towards more productive positive things to do. It gets hard because it gets lonely too. Noone to talk to in these times. Anyway, im rambling,  we will get there one day at a time. Thank you so much!!

Hi allusion,

Yes! It def set me back and increased my fear and trust issues so much worse. Im just staying away from it like mom. All it does is make me angry and make my sx a million times worse. Just keep focusing on your healing. Im trying not to fret over things I have no control over. Hang on.

 

 

Just wondered if anyone else lost as much ground in tapering off as I did during the horrors of 2020/21. More than a year of pandemic raging and mutating into possibly more dangerous forms, making me afraid that any human being I encounter might unwittingly make me sick or even die (I'm 69 and live alone with my cat), "new norms" of incessant top-level blatant lying, bullying, recklessness, and such violence and open hatred as I've never seen before...well, you all know.

 

I swore off the news, but it kept slapping me in the face, e.g., just checking my e-mail, I was first forced to see what horror had occurred that day. Then I couldn't keep myself from finding out the whole story (as my very life might depend on it) and ended up in excruciating nauseous anxiety and despair over what was happening to the whole world.

 

I've found the pandemic a God-send. I managed to taper faster than I would have had if I were working normally. Being at home, I could suffer a bit more than I could have dealing with people. My kids were off which made things a bit hectic.

I live in Thailand where people's personal values are different to the West. They put their value health above that of freedom, like in the 'developed' world. I hear those in my native Scotland didn't wear masks until months after it came. There ha been 2 week quaraantine here since last April for those entering the country compared to last week in Scotland!! Only 70 deaths here. Also, I had more time to run -  nothing better than running 5 km in 35C to forget any withdrawal feeling.

I haven't watched the news for  over 6 months, for many reasons.

Thank God I found the liquid taper. Down to 0.09 mg now!!! ANy day now I will QUIT yee haw

Rock on, Jimmy!!! Good for you!! Enjoy the soon-to-be-here freedom

Ailuron, 2020 was a rough year!  You are not alone and there are bound to be many who lost ground just as there have been many who started up benzos during this time.  I did not come to fear the virus so much as the impact of the virus - stressful all around for all.  The political climate here in the US is extremely hard and I broke down crying several times -- like you, I would vow to stay away only to be sucked back in.  The media has been "so good" to us (sarcasm) - doesn't seem to matter which side you are on, they stoke the flames.  Anyhow, it has taken a lot of willpower for me to disconnect from news, disconnect and delete social media accounts, and turn my attentions towards other things to distract.  However, by doing so, it has helped a lot.  I'm sorry you lost ground.  Hang in there.

I guess I already knew what you told me, but it was so nice to be validated with your comforting words - I'm still a "motherless child" inside - an elder orphan with no one to hold.

And thank you, too, @Dehytq2. We're "in the same boat", believe me. I have felt everything that you have. I hope we both rise above this darkness and get free of the evil chemicals that helped us cope. Going "no news" now I think is a good idea for us all.

I'm so sad that this past year probably DID cause many people to start up benzos for the first time. I know that my pharmacy was always either asking how long I could last with what xanax I had or giving me partial refills because their suppliers were running out of benzos as never before. I feel so bad for all those people who were driven to this awful solution. I hope they all have fast and easy tapering - but I know not all will.

I've just had my first COVID vaccination and am waiting 4 weeks for my second. But finally getting that started has already been a great reduction of emotional stress.

Yes, the media do "stoke the flames" of stress - no matter what side you're on. This is their "bread and butter".  And this past year has provided them with more upsetting material than ever before. But certain media have also revealed the statistics showing that mental illness has been skyrocketing, too - a story not featured very much. Like you, @Mom, I too have broken down in tears watching the dignity and honor of our politics reach such lows while so many, many people are dying. And seeing certain corporations making billions off of the pandemic and giving nothing back.

I understand what you're saying, @Jimmy T.  With no news and no job, I'm better able to maintain at 4mg xanax and 10mg valium a day, back down where I was a year ago. Experiencing pseudo-allergic w/d symptoms:  burning eyes, congestion, tingling skin, but it sure helps not having to work - I think I can continue to transition faster to valium (à la Ashton) and make cuts faster now.

Again, my sincere appreciation and best wishes to you all,

Ailúron

I realized that if I keep my 2% drop per month this will take 4 years. That is incredibly disheartening.

When I drop my dose- within about 4 days I get more anxious, then the barrage of symptoms start. This typically lasts 10-14 days.

I did a 3% drop over 8 days  last month and had akathesia, looping thoughts, SI, dizziness, undulating floor, vision problems, jaw and head pain. My family is suffering because I am suffering. I need to push this along. No chance for me to take extended time off for withdrawal.

Splitting my dose to twice a day was a game changer.

Now I’m  wondering  about a daily micro taper.

Does it really work better? How long before it catches up with you if you are doing too much? For the women, do you slow the taper around your cycle?

For K how much do you taper per day? 😬

HOW THE HECK AM I EVER  GOING TO GET OFF OF THIS?! 😩

Currently at 0.110mg K twice a day (0.173g per dose on scale)

Thank you 🙏🏼

Treelover - Since you seem to recover in 14 days from a 2% cut, I think 2/14% (0.14%) would seem to be a decent starting point for a daily micro-taper.  Klonopin reductions are usually felt in 1-3 days, so I don't think you'll get too far into the abyss before you'd realize it.

That actually doubles your tapering speed, so you might be down to 2 years.  I know it's still a long time, but you don't want to rush it.

Micro-tapers seem to be a smoother ride for many people.  You may be able to increase the rate slightly after you'd tried it for a while.

Brain not working.

So if I take 0.173g (as measured on scale) twice a day - 0.14% of that is what?

.00024g?

You got it right.  Yeah, it's a ridiculously small amount.

Two work-arounds...

#1 - Since the least you can reasonably cut is 0.001g, how about if you do 0.001g cuts every 4 days.  That's the same rate as 2% every two weeks, but the cut is only 0.5% which might be easier on you.

#2 - You can add a gram of 'inert material' to your pill to increase the effective pill weight.  Corn starch will work or you can get fancy and buy some microcrystalline cellulose.  You just have to crush everything up really well and mix the powders together really really well.  Then you would be working with a 1.173 gram pill and could do 0.14% reductions (=1.6 mg per day initially).

Thank you. I really appreciate your help.

Per badsocref’s comments about the importance of reducing the particle size of powder ingredients and obtaining a homogenous mixture when combining powder ingredients, the following videos might be of interest:

Compounding Tips: Trituration

Compounding Tips: Geometric Dilution

Thanks Ultra 2007,  You made me feel a lot better    And I did find Bob7 on here.  I think I'm stabilizing a bit, and hopefully I can start my taper soon... It's just so hard to believe I was talked into taking this crap again, and it bothers me that doctors are SO ill-informed regarding these drugs and what havoc they can cause.....

Well, I bet you don't get talked into it again! The third time isn't a charm, right? You (and all of us) will be free from this stuff one day

Hello buddies,

I wanted to show up here because I'm new to the forum and I'm really interested in DMT. I've got a bunch of graduated cyclinders, pipettes, a manual pipette controller, and similar, so I'm inclined to do a liquid/tablet hybrid DMT taper. I found this nifty tool: http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/titration/titrationForm.php and while I don't think a single spreadsheet could predict my whole taper, it's inspiring to see how to mix both the liquid formula at different strengths and how to combine it with tablets. Yet so many questions remain...

FYI I'm currently on a cut and hold, linear taper of 0.125mg of my now 1.75mg dose of clonazepam / 14 days. I'm managing my recent 6.7% cut at day 5, but I really dislike the biweekly crash and recovery cycle I'm going through. If it's going to take YEARS, I'd like to make this taper as smooth as possible so my brain and body and lifestyle can adapt to something steady; is that an unrealistic goal for DMT?

Is this a good place to ask questions about methods? Or is this just a space for encouragement?

I've been looking for folks with experience using methyl cellulose as a suspension solution for crushed tablets. This is apparently what my local compounding pharmacy uses with pure clonazepam, and it's easy to buy online.

Anyways; thanks for all you trail blazers! I know I'm in good company here and so grateful for BB since I found out I'd accidentally signed up for these crazy years of withdrawal. Hope I can be some help as well. 

Apologies in advance for long posts! 

SlowNSteady - We're here for more than just encouragement.  We can crunch numbers or review methods (at least to some extent).  We're just starting to talk about methyl cellulose as a suspension agent, so you might not get much help there??  Most people suspend their drug in alcohol or ora-plus, then dilute with water.  Or they do a dry micro-taper.

Take a look at this SS and let me know if you think it might be useful for you (let the macro run - it's harmless).

http://enchantedskies.net/Universal_Tapering_Guide2_SlowNSteady.xlsm

I can tell you more about it if you think it could be useful for you.

fwiw - You can stick with a dry taper if you want to.  You'd just need a milligram scale (e.g. GEM-20 / Amazon).