Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

Excuse my ignorance, SG, but is 150 proof the same as Everclear? If not, what "brand" comes in 150 proof? ANY brand?  Sorry, I've just never been into alcohol, so my knowledge bank is empty when it comes to this. So far so good with dissolving in 80 proof Vodka, but I'm still on a mega dose of clonazepam, as you know.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

 

I think Everclear comes in 151 proof and 190 proof.  Someone correct me if I am wrong. The percent alcohol is 1/2 the proof.  So, 80 proof is 40% alcohol, 150 proof is 75% alcohol and so on. Vodka comes in 80, 100, and 150 proof.  I do not know which brands though.  From what I have heard, 80 proof is working for people. Just to be cautious, swirl your liquid before measuring your dose.  Once you drink your dose you can then add a bit of water to the empty container and drink it.

 

Anne

Yes, Everclear brand grain alcohol comes in 151 and 190 proof.  I don't know about other areas, but where I live I can get Everclear at the local package stores.  The 150 vodka sounds good.

So is .03 to big of a cut.. .

Hip, I confess I didn't understand your post about pills and cutting. Could you explain? Are you cutting just Ativan or something else? Are you cutting daily?

Maybe my example will help.

I started on 1.8mg of Xanax and cut .02mg per day, sometimes holding a day. I did OK (tolerable symptoms) until I got to 1.0 and then I crashed. Big time. Ticked back up to 1.2 and gutted it out for a month. Obviously I hit a point that the cut was too much. The lower you go, the smaller the cut needs to be.

Then I switched to diluting so I could make smaller cuts. I started at cutting .002 per day. Did that for a week and crashed again. Not as bad this time, though.

Now I am trying .002 every other day. Actually, I start that today.

There is something else in the mix. I have ptsd and have found that the withdrawal is making that worse. I suspect the last crash was not just from the benzo, but also because I was pushing the edges of the ptsd too hard. I need to talk about this with my trauma therapist. You could also have something else in the mix that makes your symptoms worse. Cutting two meds at once? Not dosing often enough? You may need to take smaller doses of your Ativan and take them more frequently. Supposedly X is OK dosing 3-4 times/day, but I need 6 times/day. Everybody is different in how they metabolize meds.

I am also considering crossing over to a longer benzo, Librium. I need to talk about this with my psychiatrist. He is trying to help me get straight off of X. Xanax is a very short-acting benzo. You're on Ativan. That is also a very fast benzo. In and out quickly compared to others. Crossing over can be tricky, though. That's why I am trying not to do it and am just dosing more often for now.

Sorry, I don't know how your other meds interact with all of this. I do take gabapentin for sleep once in awhile and it works so-so. I have read of other people on the forum using gabapentin during their benzo withdrawal to ease the benzo symptoms and then withdrawing from the gabapentin after they have withdrawn from the benzo.

Hey, SG or other available math guru, can you try to figure out Hiphop's question about his cut being too big?

You'll need to go back a few pages and find his original numbers, which I did not understand, but I think Sharkey did. But then, I did not understand Sharkey's response, either.   Sharkey, however, seems to be occupied with becoming a father again , so I don't think we'll be seeing a lot him!

So is .03 to big of a cut.. .

I think you need to keep going the way you are going.  You started at .9g. Then you went to .87g.  Now you are at .84g.  When you feel like you are back to somewhat ok go to .81g.  I wouldn't go faster than that.  If you feel better after a week cut again.  if you dont hold for 2 weeks but stay at that cut rate.  Just cut more often.  Does that make sense?

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

 

SG..I  am using 80 proof alcohol.  What is the rationale for preferring 150 proof? I am nervous about getting this taper right from the get go, so anything to increase those chances, I will do it.  Thanks,  Shaani 

 

Shaani,

 

The drug is more soluble in the higher proof alcohol. You should be fine with the 80 proof.  Always shake your liquid before measuring out your doses. As an extra precaution, once you drink your dose, add a bit of water to the container, swirl, and drink the rinse water.  You will be fine.  I am using plain old water and my taper is going very well.

 

Anne

Thanks so much Anne. I MIX the liquid A LOT to make sure it is evenly distributed.  I also drink the rinse water. I am not sure if it is psychological or not that I imagine the alcohol increases the effects.  I am fine. Just normal antsy. 

 

I appreciate all of you on this thread for your awesome support and encouragement.

 

Have a great weekend.

 

Shaani

 

PS:  Congrats to Sharkey on the new baby.  👍💖

Excuse my ignorance, SG, but is 150 proof the same as Everclear? If not, what "brand" comes in 150 proof? ANY brand?  Sorry, I've just never been into alcohol, so my knowledge bank is empty when it comes to this. So far so good with dissolving in 80 proof Vodka, but I'm still on a mega dose of clonazepam, as you know.

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

 

I think Everclear comes in 151 proof and 190 proof.  Someone correct me if I am wrong. The percent alcohol is 1/2 the proof.  So, 80 proof is 40% alcohol, 150 proof is 75% alcohol and so on. Vodka comes in 80, 100, and 150 proof.  I do not know which brands though.  From what I have heard, 80 proof is working for people. Just to be cautious, swirl your liquid before measuring your dose.  Once you drink your dose you can then add a bit of water to the empty container and drink it.

 

Anne

 

Yes, Everclear brand grain alcohol comes in 151 and 190 proof.  I don't know about other areas, but where I live I can get Everclear at the local package stores.  The 150 vodka sounds good.

The pills are much more soluble in higher proof alcohol as SG has explained.  There is no doubt that this well better insure the pills will dissolve fully.  I used 80 proof alcohol with no problems.

So in my opinion, if you have already started this process and it is working for you, dont change anything.  If you are about to start and want to switch to a higher proof alcohol, get some everclear or 151 rum will work also.  If you already have all your supplies and are not sensitive to alcohol you could always add an extra ml of 80 proof for the same results.

I remember reading about SG talking about the higher proof before I started my titration.  The only reason I used vodka and not something higher proof is because I am still hesitant with alcohol because i had a drinking problem and didn't want the really hard stuff on my shelf.

Hope this help!

sharkey

It would be great if we could find more info on Xanax!  And, if you have time, also any other benzos and also verifying the results we already have on the common benzos.  I think the Jouyban source is reliable, but always good to have more than one source.

 

You can see by the plot why I prefer people use 150 proof.  80 proof really is cutting things close, but it seems to work and it has become the BB "standard" so I have stopped beating that drum as it was like shoveling sand against the tide.  But I really wish 150 proof would catch on.

 

I'm glad you will be reading the papers.  Jouyban is also the editor of The Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals.  There is data in that handbook on ingestible benzo solvents other than alcohol as well.  It's kind of curious that he has nothing on Xanax (other than plain water) as Xanax is so commonly used.

 

I'd actually like to see people start using lukewarm water with the alcohol/water method.  Your mention of how much a difference temperature can make has reminded me how important it could be.

 

SG..I  am using 80 proof alcohol.  What is the rationale for preferring 150 proof? I am nervous about getting this taper right from the get go, so anything to increase those chances, I will do it.  Thanks,  Shaani 

 

But anyway, okay Shaani, As Anne said, it's more soluble. 

 

If I were doing using this method I'd use 150 proof (or higher).  I'd also add another ml and use 3ml instead of just two as this also improves the margin yet is still a miniscule amount.  Another thing I'd do is use lukewarm water to dilute as Anne and I were just discussing.  I also would NOT refrigerate it.

 

Again, 80 proof, 2ml, cold water...they all seem to work as people report success, but doing the things I've mentioned will help ensure a good outcome.  Why not, right?  Easy changes.

SG,

So. If I use 3ml of alcohol. I then add 97ml of water. I disolve 1mg of K and divide it into two doses.

Just double checking.

Sigh...I should be better at math, but do not trust myself.

Thanks,

Shaani

 

 

I've only got a couple of days left before I can officially say I've completed my first .125 mg. decrease. Daily micro-tappering, for myself,  has been nerve-wracking, to say the least. Always double checking my measurements each night. I write it down, but still second guess it all.

 

I double check and write everything down, too. My son and doctor think I'm OCD about it. I say better safe than sorry!

 

I also keep track--most of the time.  I have been using a spreadsheet.  It is so easy to forget, which is what I did yesterday and this morning. I usually check my spreadsheet each day to make sure, but not yesterday.  I prepared my three doses at 37.3 mL each, but  they should have been 36.3 mL.  It was the first time I did not check, and of course I made a mistake.  Never fails. haha

My "high-tech" way of keeping track in on a stack of 4x6 file cards on the kitchen counter, one card per week. Every important reminder that I need to function is either on the kitchen counter or on the front of the refrigerator. You can see my life revolves around food!

 

 

I almost missed this post as something strange has been happening the past few days.  When I click on "show new replies to your posts" it no longer goes to the first new post, but instead jumps down a few below that.  Software glitch I guess.

 

 

My "show new replies" has always just gone to the first page of the thread and then I have to figure out where I left off.

 

 

I almost missed this post as something strange has been happening the past few days.  When I click on "show new replies to your posts" it no longer goes to the first new post, but instead jumps down a few below that.  Software glitch I guess.

 

 

 

My "show new replies" has always just gone to the first page of the thread and then I have to figure out where I left off.

Mine too...

I always have to go to the last page..

 

 

I've only got a couple of days left before I can officially say I've completed my first .125 mg. decrease. Daily micro-tappering, for myself,  has been nerve-wracking, to say the least. Always double checking my measurements each night. I write it down, but still second guess it all.

 

I double check and write everything down, too. My son and doctor think I'm OCD about it. I say better safe than sorry!

 

I also keep track--most of the time.  I have been using a spreadsheet.  It is so easy to forget, which is what I did yesterday and this morning. I usually check my spreadsheet each day to make sure, but not yesterday.  I prepared my three doses at 37.3 mL each, but  they should have been 36.3 mL.  It was the first time I did not check, and of course I made a mistake.  Never fails. haha

 

My "high-tech" way of keeping track in on a stack of 4x6 file cards on the kitchen counter, one card per week. Every important reminder that I need to function is either on the kitchen counter or on the front of the refrigerator. You can see my life revolves around food!

All great ideas. I keep my notes on my fridge.  Getting my next 2 weeks done today.

Is anyone else here dry cutting the ativan using a scale? I feel like I'm making good progress I'm down to 5.6mg from 6 in a month's time. I will do the .01 cuts every ten days till I get down to maybe 4.5 mg then probably switch to daily tapering. I'm having a few good days but it's probably cuz they upped my methadone a few mg all I know is I'm going through terrible psychological waves that are not any less severe from my original ct. I think it broke something in my brain and could never stabilize and gotta get off this stuff as my liver is not doing well at all :(all my scale doesn't seem to be very accurate either it's not too bad but it bounces around a lot in terms of .001 it fluctuate a few numbers from pill to pill. Wish I could do the titration but it's too complicated and my living situation it's too hard. But Idk I could really use some friends I think I push a lot of people away on here cuz my constant complaining and talking about my symptoms they are so severe it's completely taken over every aspect of my life.

I have had to take some large doses of valium for wisdom teeth extraction cuz they are doing one at a time over this last month I hope it's not throwing me off on my tapers or a huge wave looming in the near future because of valiums long half life. I do know that ativan has lost all therapeutic affects for me and am basically only taking it to make the withdrawal from it manageable.

Sorry for rambling I know most of this is better suited for another board but  yadayada sorry

Thanks for all your support I'm trying to reprogram my brain to think positive and focus on other things besides symptoms but 8 out of 10 days it completely takes over and I'm so I'll I'm dying or going insane  just not sure what thenext step is. Keep cutting I guess ? it hard to tell when is right because I never stabilize except when I have these weird Windows that I think are directly related to my methadone dose so confusing and terrifying. But my doctor seemed impressed that I was able to taper nearly .5 mg in a month hope I can continue at this rate. Today is a good day

 

 

I almost missed this post as something strange has been happening the past few days.  When I click on "show new replies to your posts" it no longer goes to the first new post, but instead jumps down a few below that.  Software glitch I guess.

 

 

 

My "show new replies" has always just gone to the first page of the thread and then I have to figure out where I left off.

That's what I did for three years.  Then Colin told me if I click the orange 'NEW' it takes you to where you left off last.  I'm a slow learner. 

 

 

I almost missed this post as something strange has been happening the past few days.  When I click on "show new replies to your posts" it no longer goes to the first new post, but instead jumps down a few below that.  Software glitch I guess.

 

 

 

Chal, I just stared at it and still didn't see it... I guess too used to it. Now I realize you mean the orange little sign saying NEW and there we go!

Omg, I can't believe I never figured this out. Thank you!

 

My "show new replies" has always just gone to the first page of the thread and then I have to figure out where I left off.

 

That's what I did for three years.  Then Colin told me if I click the orange 'NEW' it takes you to where you left off last.  I'm a slow learner. 

 

 

I almost missed this post as something strange has been happening the past few days.  When I click on "show new replies to your posts" it no longer goes to the first new post, but instead jumps down a few below that.  Software glitch I guess.

 

 

 

Chal, I just stared at it and still didn't see it... I guess too used to it. Now I realize you mean the orange little sign saying NEW and there we go!

Omg, I can't believe I never figured this out. Thank you!

 

My "show new replies" has always just gone to the first page of the thread and then I have to figure out where I left off.

 

That's what I did for three years.  Then Colin told me if I click the orange 'NEW' it takes you to where you left off last.  I'm a slow learner. 

This is great!  I didn't know that either :-)

Is anyone else here dry cutting the ativan using a scale? I feel like I'm making good progress I'm down to 5.6mg from 6 in a month's time. I will do the .01 cuts every ten days till I get down to maybe 4.5 mg then probably switch to daily tapering. I'm having a few good days but it's probably cuz they upped my methadone a few mg all I know is I'm going through terrible psychological waves that are not any less severe from my original ct. I think it broke something in my brain and could never stabilize and gotta get off this stuff as my liver is not doing well at all :(all my scale doesn't seem to be very accurate either it's not too bad but it bounces around a lot in terms of .001 it fluctuate a few numbers from pill to pill. Wish I could do the titration but it's too complicated and my living situation it's too hard. But Idk I could really use some friends I think I push a lot of people away on here cuz my constant complaining and talking about my symptoms they are so severe it's completely taken over every aspect of my life.

 

I have had to take some large doses of valium for wisdom teeth extraction cuz they are doing one at a time over this last month I hope it's not throwing me off on my tapers or a huge wave looming in the near future because of valiums long half life. I do know that ativan has lost all therapeutic affects for me and am basically only taking it to make the withdrawal from it manageable.

 

Sorry for rambling I know most of this is better suited for another board but  yadayada sorry

 

Thanks for all your support I'm trying to reprogram my brain to think positive and focus on other things besides symptoms but 8 out of 10 days it completely takes over and I'm so I'll I'm dying or going insane  just not sure what thenext step is. Keep cutting I guess ? it hard to tell when is right because I never stabilize except when I have these weird Windows that I think are directly related to my methadone dose so confusing and terrifying. But my doctor seemed impressed that I was able to taper nearly .5 mg in a month hope I can continue at this rate. Today is a good day

Fwiw, I'm dry micro cutting using a scale and Valium and it's going very well. I used to be worried about it and how accurate it was for a while, but it's been proving itself accurate I think.

But anyway, okay Shaani, As Anne said, it's more soluble. 

 

If I were doing using this method I'd use 150 proof (or higher).  I'd also add another ml and use 3ml instead of just two as this also improves the margin yet is still a miniscule amount.  Another thing I'd do is use lukewarm water to dilute as Anne and I were just discussing.  I also would NOT refrigerate it.

 

Again, 80 proof, 2ml, cold water...they all seem to work as people report success, but doing the things I've mentioned will help ensure a good outcome.  Why not, right?  Easy changes.

 

SG,

So. If I use 3ml of alcohol. I then add 97ml of water. I disolve 1mg of K and divide it into two doses.

 

Just double checking.

 

Sigh...I should be better at math, but do not trust myself.

 

Thanks,

Shaani

Well, the solubility limit of K is .6mg/ml in 80 proof so 3ml can hold up to 1.8mg.  You could bump it up to 4ml to get the same ratio they use (i.e., 1mg in 4ml is the same as .5mg in 2ml, which everyone else is having success with).  If you use 3ml 150 proof the solubility limit will be way higher (15mg instead of 1.8mg).

Sharkey how are you feeling now and since 7/4?

 

Im feeling pretty good.  I have a lot of real life stress going on.  My wife is about to have our second child any day now.  and stuff at work so I don't like to judge my feelings when under this stress.  But i'm doing just as good as I was while tapering up to this point.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Second child!  Yep, I'd say you have a lot going on, but at least the new child is an awesome blessing. I know it's crazy at first, but at least you've already been through it once. That experience will be huge. Congratulations, man!!  SuperDad reigns!!!

 

Jeff

I echo Jeff and others. Congratulations, Sharky. What wonderful news. 

Shannon

Hey, any of you all ever experience depression when titrating off this benzo stuff?  I feel it. Stinks too. I've been on clonazepam for over two decades, but I didn't know whether or not depression is a side effect when titrating. I try to read almost all of your threads, but I don't remember seeing much, if anything, about depression.

 

Had to ask.

 

Hugs to the whole gang!!

 

Jeff

Yep, Jeff. When I tapered from 4mg to 1.5 mg I got depressed. But I evened out eventually. This time when I started the taper last Nov, I got depressed again. It's a common sx, but you will even out. Just hang in there, bud. Our systems are so used to having these darn drugs in them. and so we will have some symptoms, but you will level out.

hugs

shannon

Is anyone else here dry cutting the ativan using a scale? I feel like I'm making good progress I'm down to 5.6mg from 6 in a month's time. I will do the .01 cuts every ten days till I get down to maybe 4.5 mg then probably switch to daily tapering. I'm having a few good days but it's probably cuz they upped my methadone a few mg all I know is I'm going through terrible psychological waves that are not any less severe from my original ct. I think it broke something in my brain and could never stabilize and gotta get off this stuff as my liver is not doing well at all :(all my scale doesn't seem to be very accurate either it's not too bad but it bounces around a lot in terms of .001 it fluctuate a few numbers from pill to pill. Wish I could do the titration but it's too complicated and my living situation it's too hard. But Idk I could really use some friends I think I push a lot of people away on here cuz my constant complaining and talking about my symptoms they are so severe it's completely taken over every aspect of my life.

 

I have had to take some large doses of valium for wisdom teeth extraction cuz they are doing one at a time over this last month I hope it's not throwing me off on my tapers or a huge wave looming in the near future because of valiums long half life. I do know that ativan has lost all therapeutic affects for me and am basically only taking it to make the withdrawal from it manageable.

 

Sorry for rambling I know most of this is better suited for another board but  yadayada sorry

 

Thanks for all your support I'm trying to reprogram my brain to think positive and focus on other things besides symptoms but 8 out of 10 days it completely takes over and I'm so I'll I'm dying or going insane  just not sure what thenext step is. Keep cutting I guess ? it hard to tell when is right because I never stabilize except when I have these weird Windows that I think are directly related to my methadone dose so confusing and terrifying. But my doctor seemed impressed that I was able to taper nearly .5 mg in a month hope I can continue at this rate. Today is a good day

This is a nice message, Hip.

I think we can all relate to being cranky, negative, obsessive about symptoms during our tapers. It really is nice to have you hear. And I hope we can all get to know you better during the taper. we all need so much community and support through this. I am not using a scale, but if it's working for you, then that is awesome. Keep us posted.

Shannon

 

That's what I did for three years.  Then Colin told me if I click the orange 'NEW' it takes you to where you left off last.  I'm a slow learner. 

What orange NEW? (Slower than you! )

Is anyone else here dry cutting the ativan using a scale?

 

Thanks for all your support I'm trying to reprogram my brain to think positive and focus on other things besides symptoms but 8 out of 10 days it completely takes over and I'm so I'll I'm dying or going insane  just not sure what thenext step is. Keep cutting I guess ? it hard to tell when is right because I never stabilize except when I have these weird Windows that I think are directly related to my methadone dose so confusing and terrifying. But my doctor seemed impressed that I was able to taper nearly .5 mg in a month hope I can continue at this rate. Today is a good day

Glad to see you found someone else (dpier1987) doing dry cutting. Yes, it can be done by people more patient and precise than I!

I know exactly what you mean by your fear taking over. That's when to distract, distract, distract. Or, if you want to try something that will help but takes more work, try mindfulness. I am just starting out on it, so I can't give expert advice. But, I found this link.

http://palousemindfulness.com/selfguidedMBSR.html

It is a free online mindfulness course modeled after one done in small groups for a fee at a university. It is supposed to be an 8 week course, but I've taken a week just to get through the introductory videos and such. But there's no hurry. And the intro stuff is very encouraging. I may watch some of it again. This is an area I really need to work on. I can see now that my micro-taper is going to take way longer than I thought so I need some long-term tools to get me through it. The mindfulness site looks very promising.

I would also suggest the Gratitude Support Thread. I confess that my first few posts were just "put the words down" and I didn't feel grateful at all. Little by little, I am feeling grateful. When my fear screams at me, I refocus on my gratitude posts. At least they are evidence that the fear is just my messed up neurons screaming (and they like to be very loud) and there will so be good days again and there are still good things in life even if my benzo brain can't feel them right now. I am trying to learn to accept that some days I feel awful and just know that it will pass. Keeping a log of good things can be helpful. I have even been known to stick up post-its around to remind myself of good things that happened and that benzo-emotions aren't forever or even real. "It's just a benzo-emotion. It will pass." "I am grateful for air-conditioning!" Stuff like that.

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=131316.0;topicseen

Finally, I have just started a "Progress Log" except that it is really a log of helpful stuff I have found on this site and on the web that I don't want to forget. I start with my background (how on earth I managed to get into this mess) and then have added posts on health and wellness from resources I have gathered over the years, mainly the past 5 years, that are helping me make progress getting out of this mess. The mindfulness link is on there, plus other stuff I've learned from my doctor and online. I am a firm believer that a healthy lifestyle is necessary for our bodies and minds to heal. That's what my log is about, at least so far. You never know when I'm going to go off on a tangent!

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=137858.0

One last thing about staying positive. Stay away from the scary stories on BB! We who are still badly wounded and struggling to recover are not the ones to be reading that stuff.  You can't help someone who is drowning until you learn to swim. They will just drag you under with them and then you will both need rescuing. Get yourself well first and then you will be able to help those who are suffering. Find a few threads that are solutions-focused and stick with them until you are stronger. 

We Can Do This! 

 

That's what I did for three years.  Then Colin told me if I click the orange 'NEW' it takes you to where you left off last.  I'm a slow learner. 

 

What orange NEW? (Slower than you! )

When you click " show new replies to my post" , all your topics you've posted in will,show, right ?

Well, each one of them says " new" Behind the name of the topic/ thread.

I used to always just click the thread and then scroll to the last page . But if you click the actual orange rectangle that says " new" ,it'll show you the new replies Right away.

It'll go to the last one automatically. Took me only 16 months to see. Haha

 

That's what I did for three years.  Then Colin told me if I click the orange 'NEW' it takes you to where you left off last.  I'm a slow learner. 

 

What orange NEW? (Slower than you! )

 

When you click " show new replies to my post" , all your topics you've posted in will,show, right ?

Well, each one of them says " new" Behind the name of the topic/ thread.

I used to always just click the thread and then scroll to the last page . But if you click the actual orange rectangle that says " new" ,it'll show you the new replies Right away.

It'll go to the last one automatically. Took me only 16 months to see. Haha

I see it. I see it!!

Hiya Moodle!

Is it goedemorgen there? Or goedenavond? Or the middle of the night which I can't say in Dutch??!!

I must be as slow as you and Challis because it never occurred to me to click on the orange "new". Duh. I will now though. 

Yay, Gardener! You got it, too!

Ha. Tekkies of the world, unite!