Author Topic: Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group  (Read 511831 times)

[Buddie]

Re: Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group
« Reply #11990 on: April 26, 2022, 08:12:54 pm »
[...],

Everyone [...] different.
But I do think you are going about 2 or 3 time slower than I would.

As [...] says, keep a journal so you can notice if things are getting worse and then adjust your speed.

You asked what I would do.
I would do the following:

First, stop worrying about percent's.  They are misleading. Remember, the last day of your taper, you are reducing 100%, no mater how you do it.

Second, consider this.

Each morning put 3 drops into 300 mL of water, mix well, and throw away 1 mL of the mixture.
Drink 1/3 of the mixture 3 times a day (or save it all for bedtime if sleep [...] your biggest issue)

Each day remove one additional ml of the mixture (so you are done in 300 days).
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group
« Reply #11991 on: April 26, 2022, 08:29:24 pm »
[...] - sorry your message was in between the other ones.  It sucks when that happens.  I appreciate you chiming in.  This [...] hard because I fear Salazar might be going so slow.

Ah the joys of asynchronous communication! I’m a proponent of the ‘two heads are better than one’ approach to providing member support so appreciate your input as well (although I do respectfully disagree with you about the importance of monitoring taper rate/percent reductions ;)).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 09:06:53 pm by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group
« Reply #11992 on: April 27, 2022, 05:48:22 am »
Thank you both for your response. The idea of diluting 3 drops in 300ml and discard one ml each day and divide the remaining part in 3 cups [...] smart though i dont know how to divide them equally. I ll try to figure out.
As for the symptoms i think i should [...] proceed because i havent stabilized in 8 long months
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group
« Reply #11993 on: April 27, 2022, 02:05:11 pm »
Thank you both for your response. The idea of diluting 3 drops in 300ml and discard one ml each day and divide the remaining part in 3 cups [...] smart though i dont know how to divide them equally. I ll try to figure out.
As for the symptoms i think i should [...] proceed because i havent stabilized in 8 long months

You are welcome, [...]. 

Re: dividing the 300ml into 3 parts …

Your current dose ratio [...] 1:1:2.  If you wish to keep this ratio, you would divide the diluted liquid accordingly. For example, at 300mL, you would divide the liquid into 75mL, 75mL, and 150mL portions.  If you decide to change to three equal doses per day (a 1:1:1 ratio; see Note under Item 1 below), you would divide the liquid into 100mL, 100mL, and 100mL portions.

Might I suggest several risk reduction strategies for your consideration if you decide to implement this approach?

(1) You would be making a change in dosage form (i.e. from taking the unmodified form of your medication in combination with modified/diluted liquid to taking your entire dose in modified/diluted form).  Some individuals react to this type of change. To determine how you will react, I suggest you switch to the diluted liquid but hold your dose constant (i.e. do not make a reduction in dose) until you are confident you are stable on the modified liquid. Then, begin making reductions.

Note: Changing your dosing ratio from 1:1:2 to 1:1:1 constitutes another type of taper change.  If you make this change at the same time you change your dosing form and experience issues, please be aware you will not be able to determine what might be causing the issue(s) (i.e. they [...] be due to the dosing form change, the dosing ratio change, or a combination thereof). 

(2) Set up and start keeping a daily taper journal (see my previous post; I’ve also included a link below where you can learn more about why a taper journal [...] key to a successful taper). Graph and review the data in your journal every two weeks or at least every month.  If you detect a trend in your symptoms or functionality levels, you [...] [...] to hold your dose constant and/or modify your taper rate by adjusting the amount of your daily reduction (downward if the trend [...] negative, upward if the trend [...] positive).

(3) Shake the modified/diluted liquid well and measure your reduction quickly.  Studies have shown that diazepam and [...] precipitate out of solution at certain dilutions.  It’s entirely possible that clonazepam does as well.  This means that your diluted liquid [...] not be a true solution but rather a hybrid solution/suspension.  Shaking will distribute any drug precipitate as evenly as possible; measuring quickly will allow you to ‘capture’ drug precipitate before it settles out of suspension (water [...] a very poor suspending vehicle due to its low viscosity).

To wrap things up …

Given that the drug does not appear to be helping you (and [...] indeed causing you issues), your conclusion that you should begin tapering [...] logical.

As you taper, please be aware you will likely experience withdrawal symptoms.  The goal of tapering [...] to keep those withdrawal symptoms in the tolerable range by monitoring your taper rate and adjusting it as needed. Consequently, I strongly encourage you to keep a daily taper journal and review it on a regular basis.

Link:
Setting Up a Taper Journal | The Withdrawal Project
https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/taper/step-19-setting-taper-journal
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 04:54:34 pm by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group
« Reply #11994 on: April 27, 2022, 06:03:16 pm »
Thank you both for your response. The idea of diluting 3 drops in 300ml and discard one ml each day and divide the remaining part in 3 cups [...] smart though i dont know how to divide them equally. I ll try to figure out. 

Thank you for your long reply. I was thinking to filute [...] one drop of the eveing dose andnonce i will be done with that i vould filute all the remaining 3 parts in 300ml and divide then (hopefully i could divide them in 3 equsl doses

As for the symptoms i think i should [...] proceed because i havent stabilized in 8 long months


You are welcome, [...]. 

Re: dividing the 300ml into 3 parts …

Your current dose ratio [...] 1:1:2.  If you wish to keep this ratio, you would divide the diluted liquid accordingly. For example, at 300mL, you would divide the liquid into 75mL, 75mL, and 150mL portions.  If you decide to change to three equal doses per day (a 1:1:1 ratio; see Note under Item 1 below), you would divide the liquid into 100mL, 100mL, and 100mL portions.

Might I suggest several risk reduction strategies for your consideration if you decide to implement this approach?

(1) You would be making a change in dosage form (i.e. from taking the unmodified form of your medication in combination with modified/diluted liquid to taking your entire dose in modified/diluted form).  Some individuals react to this type of change. To determine how you will react, I suggest you switch to the diluted liquid but hold your dose constant (i.e. do not make a reduction in dose) until you are confident you are stable on the modified liquid. Then, begin making reductions.

Note: Changing your dosing ratio from 1:1:2 to 1:1:1 constitutes another type of taper change.  If you make this change at the same time you change your dosing form and experience issues, please be aware you will not be able to determine what might be causing the issue(s) (i.e. they [...] be due to the dosing form change, the dosing ratio change, or a combination thereof). 

(2) Set up and start keeping a daily taper journal (see my previous post; I’ve also included a link below where you can learn more about why a taper journal [...] key to a successful taper). Graph and review the data in your journal every two weeks or at least every month.  If you detect a trend in your symptoms or functionality levels, you [...] [...] to hold your dose constant and/or modify your taper rate by adjusting the amount of your daily reduction (downward if the trend [...] negative, upward if the trend [...] positive).

(3) Shake the modified/diluted liquid well and measure your reduction quickly.  Studies have shown that diazepam and [...] precipitate out of solution at certain dilutions.  It’s entirely possible that clonazepam does as well.  This means that your diluted liquid [...] not be a true solution but rather a hybrid solution/suspension.  Shaking will distribute any drug precipitate as evenly as possible; measuring quickly will allow you to ‘capture’ drug precipitate before it settles out of suspension (water [...] a very poor suspending vehicle due to its low viscosity).

To wrap things up …

Given that the drug does not appear to be helping you (and [...] indeed causing you issues), your conclusion that you should begin tapering [...] logical.

As you taper, please be aware you will likely experience withdrawal symptoms.  The goal of tapering [...] to keep those withdrawal symptoms in the tolerable range by monitoring your taper rate and adjusting it as needed. Consequently, I strongly encourage you to keep a daily taper journal and review it on a regular basis.

Link:
Setting Up a Taper Journal | The Withdrawal Project
https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/taper/step-19-setting-taper-journal

Edit: Fixed quote.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 07:54:03 pm by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group
« Reply #11995 on: April 27, 2022, 07:51:14 pm »

Thank you [...]. Well, i am not keeping a journal but I know that once i came close to 0.4mg i was hit by a lot of new symptoms I didnt have before: headaches (pressure, dizziness) and nausea, dry retching, while the ones i had before like burning skin disappeared. So i decided to hold at 0.4mg. But i havent resumed my taper since september trying to stabilize. I never really did so i am thinking to myself "should i be waiting forever or should i [...] on tapering?". Considering that 8 months werent enough to make these symptoms disappear, considering that i ve always been sick even after dosing and that i never had any relief whatsoever while taking klonopin, i guess this waiting [...] useless and that it would be better to proceed. And if the plan suggested [...] reasonable i could try it (consider also that my doctors are pushing me to discard half of my dose immediately, and all the remaining part by the end of the year... and THAT [...] not reasonable

Hi [...],

I [...] took a look at the link [...] provided to the [...] Compass Withdrawal Project about keeping a journal, wow, I knew how important this effort was but I'm even more convinced of the necessity.  We tell members to use their symptoms to guide their taper and using a journal practically provides a roadmap for you when making decisions about reducing or holding so I'm hoping you've started one to help you on the rest of your taper journey.  https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/taper/step-19-setting-taper-journal

So much of this process [...] about experimentation but if you can eliminate some of the pain of experimenting on yourself I think it's worth the effort to do this, I[...] you agree.  I do think its important to pay attention to your percentages, I've watched too many members blindly follow a taper plan they laid out in advance not realizing their reductions are actually growing larger because they're making them based on the original amount of the medication.  I understand you're not doing this but its a good idea to doublecheck every once in awhile [...] to be on the safe side.  :thumbsup:

[...]

Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group
« Reply #11996 on: April 27, 2022, 08:30:47 pm »

Thank you [...]. Well, i am not keeping a journal but I know that once i came close to 0.4mg i was hit by a lot of new symptoms I didnt have before: headaches (pressure, dizziness) and nausea, dry retching, while the ones i had before like burning skin disappeared. So i decided to hold at 0.4mg. But i havent resumed my taper since september trying to stabilize. I never really did so i am thinking to myself "should i be waiting forever or should i [...] on tapering?". Considering that 8 months werent enough to make these symptoms disappear, considering that i ve always been sick even after dosing and that i never had any relief whatsoever while taking klonopin, i guess this waiting [...] useless and that it would be better to proceed. And if the plan suggested [...] reasonable i could try it (consider also that my doctors are pushing me to discard half of my dose immediately, and all the remaining part by the end of the year... and THAT [...] not reasonable

Hi [...],

I [...] took a look at the link [...] provided to the [...] Compass Withdrawal Project about keeping a journal, wow, I knew how important this effort was but I'm even more convinced of the necessity.  We tell members to use their symptoms to guide their taper and using a journal practically provides a roadmap for you when making decisions about reducing or holding so I'm hoping you've started one to help you on the rest of your taper journey.  https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/taper/step-19-setting-taper-journal

So much of this process [...] about experimentation but if you can eliminate some of the pain of experimenting on yourself I think it's worth the effort to do this, I[...] you agree.  I do think its important to pay attention to your percentages, I've watched too many members blindly follow a taper plan they laid out in advance not realizing their reductions are actually growing larger because they're making them based on the original amount of the medication.  I understand you're not doing this but its a good idea to doublecheck every once in awhile [...] to be on the safe side.  :thumbsup:

[...]

I will, [...], I think it [...] important and it s kind of therapeutic. The thing that scares me [...] that i have symptoms lasting since july, they havent subsided, and i am not tapering since september so of course i am anxious that maybe tapering could get things worse or msybe not. Or maybe i am one of the unlucky who [...] to be medicated for the rest of their lives... after all i ve been on benzos for 20 years and even tough i ve been on klonopin "only" since february 2020, the total amount was 20 years. Anyway klonopin differred from the other benzos i took because it made me immediately sick so i[...] that msybe 300 days tapering will be a relief for me. But, again, who knows?
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group
« Reply #11997 on: April 27, 2022, 10:07:25 pm »
Thank you for your long reply. I was thinking to filute [...] one drop of the eveing dose andnonce i will be done with that i vould filute all the remaining 3 parts in 300ml and divide then (hopefully i could divide them in 3 equsl doses

You are welcome, [...].  My apologies for the lengthy reply but I sensed you might benefit from additional information regarding the use of modified medication forms, how to make taper changes, and the importance of monitoring symptoms and functionality to determine if adjustments in taper rate [...] be needed.

I am delighted you plan to follow [...]’s advice about keeping a daily taper journal.  As she wisely observed, tapering [...] an experiment in which you are both the subject and the scientist.  Collecting and analyzing data are core components of experimentation. In the case of tapering, your journal [...] your primary data collection tool and data source.  It can be quite simple — key data points to include are the date, the amount and time(s) of your doses, and numerical ratings of your symptoms and functionality.

Your two-stage approach to tapering looks solid to me.  It will allow you to discover what taper rate [...] ‘[...] right’ for you during the first stage which can then be used to inform your taper plan for the second stage.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group
« Reply #11998 on: April 28, 2022, 04:38:08 am »
Thank you [...]. And thank you all. Of course everyone [...] different and everyone [...] to tailor his own strategy based on his needs. I dont know if many started or continued their taper through pletoras of symptoms or while their cns was as sensitive as mine. I guess some hold and some continued. I m stuck in a situation where the suffering has nearly got me to the ER and my stress level [...] through the roof because of life stressors and the continuing worry about this drug and all the anxiety/symptoms I have daily. I will keep my journal and I will try to stick to it the best I could but I also know that everyday [...] a very long and harsh struggle. I really hoped this 8 months hold time could have helped me but it had not and I am on my knees now for the severity of my symptoms and the related anxiety.
So i dont know how i will discover if my taper rate [...] right or not because i m in bits already.
But then again... i have [...] few options: being overmedicated, hold again or taper.
No other options.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group
« Reply #11999 on: April 28, 2022, 04:52:50 am »
hello,
I daily micro tapering with scale and was curious [...] anyone [...] using an analytical scale with four decimal points to the right (instead of the typical three, so .0001.

Thank you
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.