Author Topic: Is Klonopin the Worst.. ? (It is the most binding)  (Read 4970 times)

[Buddie]

Re: Is Klonopin the Worst.. ? (It is the most binding)
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2009, 12:18:23 pm »
Hi,

I know a little about your question - re: binding of benzos to GABA receptors.

It is true that Klonopin is more tightly binding than most (all?) other benzos. This might have some implications for recovery after quitting, as Klonopin might be slower to leave the GABA receptors. This does not mean people will not recover though!

Valium is far less binding than Klonopin, and if taken in substitution for Klonopin, it seems to compete to bind with GABA receptors, thus dislodging the Klonopin. However, there is a fly in the ointment. A small number of people seem to have a tough time when substituting one benzo for another, and Prof. Ashton noticed this was more pronounced in those switching from Klonopin to Valium. I believe the numbers were still quite low, but they were elevated. I don't know how statistically significant was the observed increase in the numbers that found this particular switch difficult. My speculation - and it really is speculation - is that if an individual has Klonopin binding particularly tightly to their GABA receptors (and my guess is that because there are genetic differences, there therefore will be different genetic expression at GABA receptor sites), then substituting for Valium might quickly dislodge the Klonopin (in effect, drastically shortening the Klonopin's half-life within an individual), but because Valium has a comparatively very long half-life, it will be very slow to build up to a level to replace the Klonopin.

Anyway, my understanding is that some might find recovery a little slower from Klonopin - for whatever reason that might be (it might be connected to the tight binding issue). Some people find it particularly difficult to switch from Klonopin to Valium - my speculation is that this might be connected to the tight binding issue. However, even those that struggle with such a switch, will probably adjust to Valium given enough time.

I should point out that the vast majority of members that have switched from Klonopin to Valium have been fine. And that people should not worry unduly about the 'tight binding' issue. I withdraw from 4.5mg Klonopin. I wasn't fun, but I did it.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Is Klonopin the Worst.. ? (It is the most binding)
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2009, 01:38:11 pm »
Hi [...],

I cold turkeyed from Klonopin too, it was no picnic.  It sounds like you had an easier time of it than I did.  I didn't know what was happening to me until I came to this forum 5 months later.  My symptoms continued to rage for many more months, but at least I finally had the understanding that came with reading the Ashton Manual and connecting to the folks on this forum. 

For me, because I took no other benzo and CT'd from it, Klonopin is the worst.  Worse than others I have no idea, I just know my own story. 

I'm very happy you've been able to heal so rapidly, that's such a gift.

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Is Klonopin the Worst.. ? (It is the most binding)
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2009, 09:07:16 pm »
i was hooked on xanex, then the doc swapped me over to klonopin..  i found that the klonopin was easier to get off of because it stays in your system longer, therefore making the taper a little bit easier.  i dont think i could have tapered xanex period, that stuff is nasty!!!!  it exited my system way to quickly.  i think that i would still be on those xannies to this day if i would have never made the switch to klonopin..  it really helped me get off of all this crap!    ;)
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Is Klonopin the Worst.. ? (It is the most binding)
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2009, 07:36:50 am »
Thanks [...] for that insightful thread!
Also thanks [...] and Kev..

Different things work for different people as far as treating their symptoms...

Well I have to say my last 5 months have been no joy ride... allthough better than a lot of people...especially considering I was
forcefully cold turkeyed off the Klonopin/Xanax/Librium

But with Kev's help .. I was reminded that opiates like Hydrocodone have helped me before with my anxiety.. .allthough I still was
trying to detox and had benzos in my body... perhaps thats why it didn't work long term..

I tried cough syrup yesterday .. a teaspoon of Cheratussin which has codeine in it and i swear my anxiety is all but GONE!!!

i dont have that persistent annoying aching and tightness on my chest ne more... I think the opiate helped take away
the inflammation/pain somehow... because thats what it seemed like...

I hope this can help you [...]! if your still in trouble.. again I am not advocating a new addiction.. but if one wasn't addicted to
opiates before than one or two teaspoons WILL NOT make you an addict. No harm in trying and see if it works for you.

EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Is Klonopin the Worst.. ? (It is the most binding)
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2009, 05:57:08 pm »
[...],   hows that anxiety doing now?  glad to hear the codiene helped you out like it did me!
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Is Klonopin the Worst.. ? (It is the most binding)
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2009, 06:35:24 pm »


I hope this can help you [...]! if your still in trouble.. again I am not advocating a new addiction.. but if one wasn't addicted to
opiates before than one or two teaspoons WILL NOT make you an addict. No harm in trying and see if it works for you.


Hi!

No point in me reiterating what was discussed yesterday regarding opiates, but I would like to point out something that seems to have been missed.

Most doctors would not prescribe an opiate for benzo withdrawal, so it is mostly moot to be recommending it. And while I appreciate that you are only trying to help, I have to say again it's really not appropriate to be recommending opiates here on a benzo withdrawal site.
Thank you.  :)
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Is Klonopin the Worst.. ? (It is the most binding)
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2009, 07:20:07 pm »
[...],

That is my opinion and what I went through. No one is forcing anyone to do anything.
If serroquel, anti depressants and other dangerous medications can be discussed about
than there is not need to get queasy about another medication like cough syrup with codeine.

Kev, my anxiety is hasn't returned yet so I am hoping I stay this way. It has been almost 2 days now.

Thanks again for your help. But of course the best thing for anyone would be to have a drug free recovery
on their own... sometimes though with all the mind alteration, some form of other support is required.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Is Klonopin the Worst.. ? (It is the most binding)
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2009, 07:52:18 pm »
[...],

Your posts promoting opiates as an aid to benzo-withdrawal are dangerous. Such posts must stop now. Our members are already experiencing problems quitting benzos, they can well do without adding another addictive medicine to the mix. And, of course, as [...] pointed out, what kind of doctor is going to prescribe opiates to patients tapering off their benzos?

Of course your anxiety is gone if you take opiates - this is what makes them so attractive as recreational drugs. They are are also highly addictive - did I really need to point this out?

Whether or not you agree or disagree with this stance, it is the stance of this forum. I never considered that we needed a rule to cover this - so I tell you now, stop promoting opiates as a benzo-withdrawal aid. I own this website - it is my privilege to determine what is, and what is not suitable material for this forum. In future, if you take issue with what you have been told by a moderator, let alone an Admin of this forum, and you do not have good grace to accept the ruling, then contact me through the PM system.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Is Klonopin the Worst.. ? (It is the most binding)
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2009, 09:22:13 am »
K Frankly [...], I don't care who runs or own the site. I am not asking for anything from you.
The internet is a vast resource and more detailed than your foum. 

And your forum is not a court of law. SO as to the post saying I need to accept 'rulings',
I just have to say that that sounds very childish and second honestly NO ONE cares on this site
about empty threats ( A lot of the members have strongly indicated such)

like that honestly don't affect anyone sitting a  thousands miles away from you Ok pal?

Now let me restate this clearly , just as Kevkev put it nicely, NO ONE is recommending using an addictive
drug such as opiates DURING tapering/withdrawal. Once your body is clean from those substances it is up to the
person what they wan't to do with their bodies. As we all know, differnt things work for different people.

Just because you run the your own site does not mean you can run other people lives which you know you can't.

This is not the FIRST example of one addictive class of drugs being used to help with issues with another class
of addictive drugs.

One GOOD example is : the use of Librium and benzo's to help alcoholics successfully wean themselves off of alcohol and detox them.

How do you explain that? Let me guess, your against that too.

This has been used on for decades with tens of thousands of patients. You are not a doctor [...] and neither is [...]. Let alone far from being
the supreme authority when it comes to benzo addiction and drugs.

Just as many people have noticed on here , and supported my free speech stance about being able to describe my OWN general experience and journey,
I would never wish for anyone to go through a bad addiction with any substance.

This is a benzo recovery site, not just for people going through withdrawals. Lingering sympoms such as anxiety are often even more debilatating
than the first few weeks of detox because of the time span involved. People who have detoxed successfully need help too.

Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Is Klonopin the Worst.. ? (It is the most binding)
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2009, 12:03:19 pm »
Hi [...],

If you had made a post about the 'science', and were enquiring about why this might occur, and discuss sensibly the very real potential problems with taking opiates as an aid to alleviating benzo withdrawal symptoms, you would have received a different response from me. However, instead, you posted to about four different threads, in the space of a few hours, about how this is some kind of panacea - you were most definitely promoting the use of opiates! Your posts were irresponsible, and aimed to encourage others to try opiates as a solution. As such, you stepped over the line - this discussion stops now. How many times must I write this?

I own this website - I have responsibilities you do not. Since I own here, I, ultimately, decide where to draw the line. If you wish to continue to post to this forum, you will have to accept the 'rulings' - this is true of every single forum you might wish to join. The vast majority members understand this.

A few of your posts from yesterday:

Thanks [...] for that insightful thread!
Also thanks [...] and Kev..

Different things work for different people as far as treating their symptoms...

Well I have to say my last 5 months have been no joy ride... allthough better than a lot of people...especially considering I was
forcefully cold turkeyed off the Klonopin/Xanax/Librium

But with Kev's help .. I was reminded that opiates like Hydrocodone have helped me before with my anxiety.. .allthough I still was
trying to detox and had benzos in my body... perhaps thats why it didn't work long term..

I tried cough syrup yesterday .. a teaspoon of Cheratussin which has codeine in it and i swear my anxiety is all but GONE!!!

i dont have that persistent annoying aching and tightness on my chest ne more... I think the opiate helped take away
the inflammation/pain somehow... because thats what it seemed like...

I hope this can help you [...]! if your still in trouble.. again I am not advocating a new addiction.. but if one wasn't addicted to
opiates before than one or two teaspoons WILL NOT make you an addict. No harm in trying and see if it works for you.

EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT.

I have never heard of anyone becoming addicted after one teaspoon of hydrocodeine syrup especially after 5 months of being clean.

Opiates hit different receptors.. opiod receptors... different than what benzo's do.

Just thought I'd mention that.

You are right... Vitamin D is not a CURE as I will state now from my experience on it for a month.. It DOES help me though.
Whether its placebo or something else.. it tends to immediately calm me down.

But more than likely if it has been months since your detox and you've returned to your normal diet than It is unlikely that
some sort of mineral or vitamin deficiency is causing anxiety. You would have to be completely malnourished for something like
that to occur perhaps.

I just took codeine cough syrup Cheratussin and I swear to everyone my anxiety is GONE!! I took one teaspoon after another member
reported a similar experience with Hydrocodone syrup.. he has a thread started under BUSPAR/Hydrocodone

Well I have to say I haven't felt like this in along time... I am calm.. and it has been over a day now.. so I am hopign I stay this way.
Read that post for info on how I think it helped!!

Good Luck [...]!!!

NEWS FLASH [...]!!

The bottom line is that I feel pretty good now after I took a teaspoon of codeine cough syrup.

You can disagreew with me ALL you want or be angry at me for telling my experiences...

You are NOT going to take the joy away from me that I feel now that I have never felt before
and I will share it with everyone.

Take psychotic drugs is what is dangerous, especially if you never had any psychological issues before you started
benzo addiciton.

Your trying to muzzle free speech is what is dangerous.

Many of our members are very suggestable - you can discuss nearly anything at this forum, so long as you frame it correctly and carefully. You failed to do this.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 04:06:09 pm by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.