Tapering while in severe tolerance, advice needed

I have been on low dose Benzos since late April 14.  I was place on it for tinnitus.  It killed tinnitus but it took many months to realize what I was so sick and in so much pain...tolerance withdrawal.  I eventually asked for Klonopin which helped with sleep and some tension but the effect was short lived.  I switched to Valium and have a supportive PDoc and the game is on for a taper.  10mgs of Valium made me feel pretty good for a few days but the tolerance came back...anxiety, debilitating muscle pain, burning, unsteadiness, weakness and insomnia.

 

I've tried going up in dose but the effects are short lived and I have no other option to come down and will have suffer through it.  The "reinstate until you feel good and then do a micro taper" will not work for me.  Tried that and flunked and feel like shit at any dose.  I've been piss-dicking around with the same 7.5mg dose (or equivalent) now for months and it's time to roll.

 

Plan:

Week 1 - Went from 10 to 7 (too fast but was only at 10 for 6 days to x-over from KPin.) Start day was Thanksgiving

Week 2- 7

Week 3 - 6

Week 4 - 5 (hold 10 days)

Week 5+  4 (hold 10 days)

Week 6+ 3 (hold 10 days)

Week 7+ 2 (hold 10 days)

Week 9 - 1 mg

Week 10 -STOP

 

I am shooting for 9 weeks and it's going to be hell either way.  My question is does it make sense to taper super-slow when I'm barely functioning as it is.  My BDay is in early Feb and I will stop on that day even if it means death.

 

Question:  Has anyone had to taper while in painful tolerance withdrawal and does it get better?

 

 

I think tapering is always best then to cold turkey.Thats what I did. It was from occasional as needed use of 1mg.Lorazapam that I went cold turkey from,and had a terrible time.I was having interdose withdrawal symptoms even taking them off and on,and knew I needed to get off these things.At almost 8 months still suffering side effects,but can tell you its getting better slowly.I think whether you taper or cold turkey you will have withdrawal symptoms,but if you cold turkey you could end up having seizures.Some people do have them,and you don't know if you are a person that it could happen to,so best to err on the side of caution.I personally wouldn't know the proper taper,as I did cold turkey,but ive read enough on Benzos to know the slower the better.Hopefully someone will offer you some taper info.I wish id never touched Benzos,when I look back,as bad as my anxiety/panic attacks were,there was never a time they didn't go away on their own after I calmed down and the situation got alittle better.These just intensified the anxiety by messing with my central nervous system,GABA and made me so sick.Hang in there,and don't give up tapering,so many days after quitting I wanted to take just one to calm down,but am so glad I didn't so I can one day just be me again!God Bless you!

I would be all for doing a slow redux if I was felling well, but I'm basically sick and feel trapped.  Each day is hellish.  I thought a 10 week taper would be better than a sudden c/t stop. If I start feeling well during some of the holds I will extend them and go slower. 

 

Dunno, I'm seeing people doing 1-2 year tapers from 5mgs of Valium, others doing C/T and my Dr is flexible but telling me 10-12 weeks is reasonable from 7.5 and he has been treating detox from meds for 32 years.  I suppose the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

Yes,the withdrawal is so awful.Icant believe how bad the symptoms have been for me using Lorazapam for 3 days a week,once when my dad was in the hospital dying I took it every day for a week.You would think 1mg once a day would do that to a person,but as soon as that dose started to wear off,i got slammed with the worst anxiety of my life.Its interesting you were given Benzos for tinnitus,i got tinnitus from benzos!I hope you can get off your dose soon and feel better.Just don't give up and go back to taking them again once you do.I was tempted so many times just so I could have one calm day,but I didn't because they will keep you messed up and sick forever.I actually had a panic attack when I threw my pills away for good.Take care!

Question? How long did you take to crossover from the k to the V?  The reason I'm asking is because V takes awhile to build up and the K would leave your system a lot quicker. So in effect, if your crossover was very fast it would be like a 75% cut temporarily in your K.

Question? How long did you take to crossover from the k to the V?  The reason I'm asking is because V takes awhile to build up and the K would leave your system a lot quicker. So in effect, if your crossover was very fast it would be like a 75% cut temporarily in your K.

 

That was going to be my first question.

 

My other questions are what was your original benzo, and what dose was it?

 

What dose of K did you go to? Possibly you didn't cross over to the right amount of valium.

 

If I'm reading your signature correctly, you were on 1.5mg X. That is equivalent to 30mg of valium, so if you've only crossed over to 10mg V you have totally undershot how much you should be taking, so it's no wonder that you aren't feeling any good on that amount.

 

I honestly don't think "tolerance" is your problem. It's an over-used word IMO. Most of the time it's good old fashioned withdrawal, and that is what I think you are suffering from.

 

I would definitely not be aiming for any kind of schedule or time table. That simply does not work with benzo tapering. You can only go at the speed your body will allow. Anyone can taper quickly, but the consequences are many, varied, painful and long lasting. A slow taper is always best, and is the best way to remain relatively pain-free and functional throughout your taper.

 

You can stop on your birthday if you want to, but I can pretty well guarantee you will either suffer for a long time to come, or you will just end up reinstating and then you will be right back at square one, possibly in a worse state because reinstating doesn't always work for some people. Slow is the only way IMO. 

I was on Xanax 1mg from Apr 24 to about the end of May then to 1.5mg Xanax XR in 3 divided .5mg doses. 

 

May 30  - switched to Xanax IR 1.5 mg

Aug 15 - had worked down to about .75mg, neck and back pain grew quickly, still have it

Sep 25 - direct switch to .75 Kpin with no overlap, felt better with no transition

Sep 26 - Nov 18 got down to .375 kpin fealt aweful

Nov19-direct cross to 10 mg Val over 3 days

Nov 28 started Val taper, 9mg, then 8mg, one week 7.5 and now on 7. 

 

Feel aweful.  Does that history help some?  I basically crossed from .375 Kpin to 10 mg Valium. 

 

I suppose I could adjust my goal to getting down to 2 mg by early Feb...that would be a 5 mg taper spread over 9 weeks...that's basically Ashton timing is it not?

Yeah...that's a 30mg v equivalant as Pam said.  These docs give out scrips that they consider a "low" dose but these newer drugs are way stronger than v mg for mg. 

 

No wonder you're getting crushed. 

I was on Xanax 1mg from Apr 24 to about the end of May then to 1.5mg Xanax XR in 3 divided .5mg doses. 

 

May 30  - switched to Xanax IR 1.5 mg

Aug 15 - had worked down to about .75mg, neck and back pain grew quickly, still have it

Sep 25 - direct switch to .75 Kpin with no overlap, felt better with no transition

Sep 26 - Nov 18 got down to .375 kpin fealt aweful

Nov19-direct cross to 10 mg Val over 3 days

Nov 28 started Val taper, 9mg, then 8mg, one week 7.5 and now on 7. 

 

Feel aweful.  Does that history help some?  I basically crossed from .375 Kpin to 10 mg Valium. 

 

I suppose I could adjust my goal to getting down to 2 mg by early Feb...that would be a 5 mg taper spread over 9 weeks...that's basically Ashton timing is it not?

I couldn't handle the ashton. I pushed as hard as I could but I still had to work and be somewhat functional. Even if I was able to just lay in bed I might have only been able to go a bit quicker. It was soooo hard.  If you can handle it great but I would recommend just at listening to your body and doing a slower taper.

I was on Xanax 1mg from Apr 24 to about the end of May then to 1.5mg Xanax XR in 3 divided .5mg doses. 

 

May 30  - switched to Xanax IR 1.5 mg

Aug 15 - had worked down to about .75mg, neck and back pain grew quickly, still have it

Sep 25 - direct switch to .75 Kpin with no overlap, felt better with no transition

Sep 26 - Nov 18 got down to .375 kpin fealt aweful

Nov19-direct cross to 10 mg Val over 3 days

Nov 28 started Val taper, 9mg, then 8mg, one week 7.5 and now on 7. 

 

Feel aweful.  Does that history help some?  I basically crossed from .375 Kpin to 10 mg Valium. 

 

I suppose I could adjust my goal to getting down to 2 mg by early Feb...that would be a 5 mg taper spread over 9 weeks...that's basically Ashton timing is it not?

 

Not sure about the taper amounts. But what will help others help you is if you take the little bio you just typed and cut and paste it into your forum profile. A slam dunk to get you kick started.

Good luck, Bennie

 

Done.

 

I know of very few people who can actually follow the Ashton Method in real life. Your problems started from Day 1, because you have tapered much too quickly. Your equivalent Valium dose when you started was 30mg and now after just over 6 months you are down to 7mg. That's a hell of a drop. So it's not "tolerance". It's plain old withdrawal.

 

The only adjustment to a goal I would be making is to totally forget about any goals. You need to hold at your dose for however long it takes for you to feel better - and that could take some time, or alternatively think very seriously about reinstating part of your dose.

 

If you keep cutting and sticking to this plan you have you will continue to suffer and you will probably end up suffering withdrawal symptoms for a long time. That's if you don't reinstate right back to your original dose first. I can't say it any plainer than that. The decision is yours.

I agree with Diaz-Pam what she (I assume her being Pam) writes. You can do a schedule, it can motivate you, but you probably shouldn't force it. Things can get difficult after jump, even with a slow taper. It's not good psychologically to prepare that you are feeling better after taper. Sometime later, yes, but there is no guarantee how you're after you've jumped.

I certainly appreciate the insight, especially from folks who have survived this.  One thing I want to clarify though is that i've basically been on 7.5mg equivalent dose of Valium since about mid-August.  It's now December.  I actually felt worse on the highest dose than I do today.  I think I'll update my profile to artculate things more precisely.  I went back and checked my records.  I would also mention that Dr essentially C/T'd me from Celexa after 16 mos over a 2-week period on May 24th.  That didnt help.

 

Im going to hold where I am for awhile and then just do what feels right.  Will just have to slow things way down in terms of cuts. 

I think the main problem is that you did cut from (the equivalent of) 30mg down to 7.5mg in less than 3 months. You may have been holding since mid August, but your body won't recover from that kind of cut quickly. It could take quite a while yet before you do stabilise. Even though it's very hard (and I completely understand how hard it is) patience is the only way forward with a benzo taper. Alternatively you could think about reinstating some of your dose in the hopes that you will feel better quicker.

Need2Heal

 

I tried an aggressive taper schedule the first 3 tries. My original goal was to complete the taper in 100 days. Not happening. Had to go back to my original dose of .50mg clonazepam 3 times for several days to stabilize because the wd's were hitting hard. On the advice of a highly respected BenzoBuddie I started my 4th attempt of tapering at .10ml which is 1/10th of my first try. If I had to stay at his taper without increasing and not having to hold at any point to stabilize it would take me 500 days to complete. I have already been able to increase my taper to .15ml after 6 days of tapering with no wd's. I am using the 50ml cylinder. Crush the pill with a mortar & pestle use 1ml 80 proof Tequila mix up the powder then add 49ml water let it sit and stir again before taking. I was using the milk titration the first 3 tries. The Tequila/water method works the best for me now after several days of use. No milk mess to deal with and no milk bubbles that always happen when mixing and wind up in the taper syringe.

The only bummer so far is the sleep issues but I have been using various herbal teas to try and knock myself out if I wake up in the middle of the night usually after 4-5 hrs of sleep. I have managed to obtain7 1/2 hrs of sleep but this is rare.

So as far as a taper schedule there isn't one. I just wait until I feel comfortable at my current cut and if all goes well with no wd's then and only then will I increase my cut. I do not care anymore how long this is going to take. As long as I can get through this with minimum wd symptoms and am able to continue to work on a regular basis.

 

Good luck with your taper. Mnypit08

 

I'm going to see how I do this week and if needed will reinstate a bit to see if it helps.  My new Dr is pretty good and will aid as needed.  Ironically he told me to stay the hell off the internet...it will only drive your anxiety and rumination higher.

Ironically he told me to stay the hell off the internet...it will only drive your anxiety and rumination higher.

 

For the most part, I agree.

I'm sure there are probably a lot of benzos type sites you need to keep away from. I found a couple of dubious ones in my initial search, some of them being more of a "how to obtain and get high on" benzos, rather than "how to stop" benzos.

 

BB is totally the right place to be if you need help. However, even being on BB can get too much for some people if they dwell too much on the negativity.

What if you reinstate to feel better with the intent of starting anew and it doesn't work, i.e., you don't feel better on a higher dose?

 

Then I guess it's just full frontal combat, do your best to sooth the symptoms and head into hell until it's over?

 

From the 2011 Ashton Manual Supplement:

"Updosing during withdrawal? Some people hit a "sticky patch" during the course of benzodiazepine withdrawal. In many cases, staying on the same dose for a longer period (not more than a few weeks) before resuming the withdrawal schedule allows them to overcome this obstacle. However, increasing the dose until a longed-for plateau of 'stability' arrives is not a good strategy. The truth is that one never 'stabilises' on a given dose of benzodiazepine. The dose may be stable but withdrawal symptoms are not. It is better to grit one's teeth and continue the withdrawal. True recovery cannot really start until the drug is out of the system."

 

 

 

Everyone is totally different in how they respond to updoses. Some people say it helped them stabilise and go forward. Others not so much. Nothing is ever guaranteed with benzo tapering.

 

Always keep in mind that the Ashton Method is a guide only. Everyone has different reactions to her method and strategies. I don't agree with her when she says "The truth is that one never 'stabilises' on a given dose of benzodiazepine. The dose may be stable but withdrawal symptoms are not. It is better to grit one's teeth and continue the withdrawal. True recovery cannot really start until the drug is out of the system."

 

Holding worked countless times for me in decreasing or eliminating my side effects. I also did a few "dose corrections" during my taper and they really helped. If you "grit one's teeth and continue the withdrawal" you are going to have to pay the piper sooner or later, and you will probably just have longer to recover from the side effects when you finish your taper.

 

A slow taper also definitely helped me heal along the way. I think what she has written has been misinterpreted. What I think she should have said is "True recovery cannot be completed until the drug is out of the system."  However, I’m not going to speak for, or assume, what she meant when she wrote her manual. I guess it really just comes down to the difference between being an actual benzo taperer and not being an actual benzo taperer. Her patients were tapered a lot quicker than most people who are very sensitive to benzo can manage.  In comments made after her Method was published she has readily acknowledged the need for a slow/slower taper.

 

What if you reinstate to feel better with the intent of starting anew and it doesn't work, i.e., you don't feel better on a higher dose?

 

Then I guess it's just full frontal combat, do your best to sooth the symptoms and head into hell until it's over?

 

From the 2011 Ashton Manual Supplement:

"Updosing during withdrawal? Some people hit a "sticky patch" during the course of benzodiazepine withdrawal. In many cases, staying on the same dose for a longer period (not more than a few weeks) before resuming the withdrawal schedule allows them to overcome this obstacle. However, increasing the dose until a longed-for plateau of 'stability' arrives is not a good strategy. The truth is that one never 'stabilises' on a given dose of benzodiazepine. The dose may be stable but withdrawal symptoms are not. It is better to grit one's teeth and continue the withdrawal. True recovery cannot really start until the drug is out of the system."

 

In my experience? From someone who never was able to stabilize (on Xanax though not V) and was in tolerance wd all the time? Yep..."grit ones teeth and continue"! Although most people would not agree with Ashton on this and feel it is a must to stabilize before continuing. I didn't have that luxury and forced myself down the rabbit hole. Difficult? Yes! Impossible? No...it's painful but doable.

 

Grinch

I started out deep in tolerance withdrawal and up-dosed early on after dropping too much, too quickly. It helped at first, for about a week, then I was right back into the thick of withdrawal symptoms, plus I'd added a couple of months to my taper. Eventually, I started getting a paradoxical reaction (sweating, heart racing, etc.) about an hour after I dosed. I regretted up-dosing.

 

So, in my case, Ashton was right.

 

I think tolerance withdrawal creates a very different tapering scenario....

I, too, think that it's hard to correct if you've gone too fast. I mean, it's difficult to get back to a state where the symptoms are manageable. I think I succeeded with my taper 16 months going slow and careful, but screwed up in the end, that is the last 3 months.

 

My advice to myself back then would have been: be extra careful. I often wonder, if people start to hurry too much, when there's only a little left. Another important thing would be: where are you going to land? How is you work situation private life etc. when you jump? Is there any flexibility to give you some security?

 

Getting there seems like trial and error. I really hope people could avoid the error going too fast. These reinstatements are so risky! Been there!