Jump to content

2012 Study: What is the difference between dependence and withdrawal reactions?


[La...]

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 59
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • [La...]

    17

  • [Mo...]

    11

  • [Wi...]

    7

  • [...]

    5

It's crazy that a very respected organization is doing studies like this and concluding that the current thought process is not rational AND YET we try to explain this to doctors and they treat us like idiots.  Makes me crazy.

 

I love that this study talks about benzo "dependence" and not once does it talk about addiction/abuse. I also love that they are questioning the use of the term "discontinuation syndrome" and not dependence for SSRI's when the experience is so similar. 

 

I don't know if doctors really believe the garbage they tell us or not or if perhaps being in denial is the only way to keep sane and keep doing their jobs.  What a crock.  It irks me greatly that these are the people who we are supposed to not only trust, but respect while at the very same time they are really hurting us.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree whole-heartedly! One of the authors is Dr. Peter Gotzsche, who has just won an award for his status quo-challenging book, "Deadly Medicines and Organized Crime". So, he and his colleagues are looking at what's out there and asking tough questions.

 

Why not print some of these studies out and share them with medical professionals, if you think it might help? They might respond to medical studies more than newspaper articles. I've got a whole file of such studies now, including the full version of this abstract.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have not had a lot of luck with those in the medical profession with much of anything that is counter to how they think, especially in psychiatry.  I have been insulted, criticized and judged, all because I questioned treatment.  I have dedicated the last several years to getting off the meds and detaching from the web of  psychiatric dysfunction and believe now that it is willful ignorance and if they truly had interest in doing the right thing, it would be relatively simple.  But because of self interest and the desire for proliferation of a career based on "the emperors new clothes", truth means very little.  But I found this study very validating.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fair enough. I think the major focus has to be on allowing the body to heal from what's happened. That's a time thing and it doesn't involve more medical intervention. Just keep moving forward, stay hopeful, and keep putting one foot in front of the other.

I wish you well, WWWW!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[14...]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21992148

 

I was able to access the full-length report, and the list of withdrawal effects lists 42 symptoms. Forty-two!

 

 

From the article:

 

CONCLUSIONS:

Withdrawal reactions to selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors appear to be similar to those for benzodiazepines; referring to these reactions as part of a dependence syndrome in the case of benzodiazepines, but not selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, does not seem rational.

 

Wow. I have two friends trying to come off of SSRI's. Both had to reinstate. If it's true that SSRI's are just as dangerous as benzos, consider how many women are being put on SSRI's under the guise of other ("female") related disorders such as PMS and menopause. It's infuriating to think about, especially the re-packaging of SSRI's for other uses and under other names (Sarafem and Brisdelle come to mind).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, my Prozac withdrawal was a nightmare. Dizziness -- my worst benzo symptom -- is the number one symptom of coming off SSRIs as well. And I've never had insomnia like that. I was up all night, eyes wide open, no sleep at all. Weird and horrible. Anyway, it's so validating to see it in a study like this. When shown in the full study, the two-column list of withdrawal effects from benzos and SSRIs is quite stunning (in a bad way, of course!).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[14...]

Yes, my Prozac withdrawal was a nightmare. Dizziness -- my worst benzo symptom -- is the number one symptom of coming off SSRIs as well. And I've never had insomnia like that. I was up all night, eyes wide open, no sleep at all. Weird and horrible. Anyway, it's so validating to see it in a study like this. When shown in the full study, the two-column list of withdrawal effects from benzos and SSRIs is quite stunning (in a bad way, of course!).

 

Hey, Lapis. Do you have to pay on that site to see the whole study? Not sure if I'm looking at it right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually saved it as a Word document after someone with access to a medical library found it for me. I'll attach it here, if that's allowed. I'm just not sure if it's okay to do so.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last summer a "new", non hormonal drug was approved by the FDA for Hot Flashes called Brisdelle.

 

Here is the thing.  It's paroxetine, which is basically Paxil, which appears to be one of the most difficult SSRI's from which to withdraw.  So in effect, they have changed a drug to a slightly different formulation which means it's once again under patent and will make a butt load of money.  It's a drug which for many is almost impossible from which to withdrawal.  All this for a temporary, normal condition.  They are selling it as being "safe" because it's a "non hormonal" treatment.

 

But what they don't tell you is that when menaupause is over an dshe is going to try to get off this drug, will have phenomenal difficulty, will be told that her withdrawal symptoms means she has an underlying condition that requires she stay on the drug and she will most likely be on it for life. All because of wanting to simply minimize normal menopausal hot flashes.

 

To me that is just immoral and should be criminal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, WWWI, you should check out the thread here on Benzos in the News where there's a discussion of exactly that subject. It's the "60 Minutes" thread about SSRIs and the placebo effect.

 

I'm watching a video right now that was shared by another BB on that thread, called "The Antidepressant Era" featuring Dr. David Healy. It's enlightening and enraging at the same time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[14...]

I actually saved it as a Word document after someone with access to a medical library found it for me. I'll attach it here, if that's allowed. I'm just not sure if it's okay to do so.

 

Unfortunately, we can't do attachments (at least not that I'm aware of). That's okay. I think I got the gist.

 

Thanks for all of the info you've provided.  :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Darn, that's too bad!

 

Sometimes I find a regular internet link for a study, but for many of the abstracts, I've had to ask for help to access the full studies. I have a fair number of articles now, and they've been invaluable in helping me understand things and share information with others. In my experience, medical studies carry weight with professionals in the health care field, so anything that provides validation for what we're experiencing is useful to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[14...]

Darn, that's too bad!

 

Sometimes I find a regular internet link for a study, but for many of the abstracts, I've had to ask for help to access the full studies. I have a fair number of articles now, and they've been invaluable in helping me understand things and share information with others. In my experience, medical studies carry weight with professionals in the health care field, so anything that provides validation for what we're experiencing is useful to me.

 

Hey, Lapis.

 

You may be able to copy the document from Word and paste it here. That may be a good work-around.

 

Researching this stuff is on my list of things to do once I'm back on my feet financially and my cognitive skills return.  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last summer a "new", non hormonal drug was approved by the FDA for Hot Flashes called Brisdelle.

 

Here is the thing.  It's paroxetine, which is basically Paxil, which appears to be one of the most difficult SSRI's from which to withdraw.  So in effect, they have changed a drug to a slightly different formulation which means it's once again under patent and will make a butt load of money.  It's a drug which for many is almost impossible from which to withdrawal.  All this for a temporary, normal condition.  They are selling it as being "safe" because it's a "non hormonal" treatment.

 

But what they don't tell you is that when menaupause is over an dshe is going to try to get off this drug, will have phenomenal difficulty, will be told that her withdrawal symptoms means she has an underlying condition

that requires she stay on the drug and she will most likely be on it for life. All because of wanting to simply minimize normal menopausal hot flashes.

 

To me that is just immoral and should be criminal.

 

unbelievable WWW, it is criminal indeed. >:(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[14...]

Last summer a "new", non hormonal drug was approved by the FDA for Hot Flashes called Brisdelle.

 

Here is the thing.  It's paroxetine, which is basically Paxil, which appears to be one of the most difficult SSRI's from which to withdraw.  So in effect, they have changed a drug to a slightly different formulation which means it's once again under patent and will make a butt load of money.  It's a drug which for many is almost impossible from which to withdrawal.  All this for a temporary, normal condition.  They are selling it as being "safe" because it's a "non hormonal" treatment.

 

But what they don't tell you is that when menaupause is over an dshe is going to try to get off this drug, will have phenomenal difficulty, will be told that her withdrawal symptoms means she has an underlying condition that requires she stay on the drug and she will most likely be on it for life. All because of wanting to simply minimize normal menopausal hot flashes.

 

To me that is just immoral and should be criminal.

 

Not only immoral, but the FDA also acted against a majority of outside experts:

 

"The FDA’s own Advisory Committee of outside experts voted against approval of this drug for hot flashes. That is a rare event. In answer to one of the questions posed to the committee: “Is the overall risk benefit profile of paroxetine acceptable to support approval of the product for VMS  [vasomotor symptoms or hot flashes]?” the vote was 4 to approve and 10 not to approve. Despite the vote, the FDA execs chose to overrule the outside experts and move forward with approval."(Source: http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2013/07/01/new-fda-drug-approval-blessing-or-boondoggle/

 

"What the press release fails to mention is that the FDA’s Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee voted 10 to 4 that the overall risk-benefit profile of the drug did not support approval—that the benefits over placebo were “minimal,” and that all of the severe side effects associated with SSRIs, such as suicidal thoughts and osteoporosis, outweigh the minor benefits." (Source: http://www.anh-usa.org/fda-approves-a-dangerous-new-antidepressant-for-hot-flashes/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would a woman of menopausal age want to take a medication that can lower her bone density (asks the slim woman who's already at risk of osteoporosis)??
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[14...]

Why would a woman of menopausal age want to take a medication that can lower her bone density (asks the slim woman who's already at risk of osteoporosis)??

 

I don't think women know about this. I've read that 1 in 4 women in their 40's and 50's take a SSRI (http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/astounding-increase-in-antidepressant-use-by-americans-201110203624).

 

I've been on psych drugs for 30 years and never was told about any of these types of problems.

 

With everything else going on the lives of women in the age group, I just don't think there's time to do all this research. The only reason I'm doing it is because I couldn't remember where I lived a few months ago.

 

I'm letting my closest friends, especially women, know about this. There's got to be a better way of informing people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last summer a "new", non hormonal drug was approved by the FDA for Hot Flashes called Brisdelle.

 

Here is the thing.  It's paroxetine, which is basically Paxil, which appears to be one of the most difficult SSRI's from which to withdraw.  So in effect, they have changed a drug to a slightly different formulation which means it's once again under patent and will make a butt load of money.  It's a drug which for many is almost impossible from which to withdrawal.  All this for a temporary, normal condition.  They are selling it as being "safe" because it's a "non hormonal" treatment.

 

But what they don't tell you is that when menaupause is over an dshe is going to try to get off this drug, will have phenomenal difficulty, will be told that her withdrawal symptoms means she has an underlying condition that requires she stay on the drug and she will most likely be on it for life. All because of wanting to simply minimize normal menopausal hot flashes.

 

To me that is just immoral and should be criminal.

 

Not only immoral, but the FDA also acted against a majority of outside experts:

 

"The FDA’s own Advisory Committee of outside experts voted against approval of this drug for hot flashes. That is a rare event. In answer to one of the questions posed to the committee: “Is the overall risk benefit profile of paroxetine acceptable to support approval of the product for VMS  [vasomotor symptoms or hot flashes]?” the vote was 4 to approve and 10 not to approve. Despite the vote, the FDA execs chose to overrule the outside experts and move forward with approval."(Source: http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2013/07/01/new-fda-drug-approval-blessing-or-boondoggle/

 

"What the press release fails to mention is that the FDA’s Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee voted 10 to 4 that the overall risk-benefit profile of the drug did not support approval—that the benefits over placebo were “minimal,” and that all of the severe side effects associated with SSRIs, such as suicidal thoughts and osteoporosis, outweigh the minor benefits." (Source: http://www.anh-usa.org/fda-approves-a-dangerous-new-antidepressant-for-hot-flashes/

 

This does not help alleviate my fears about big pharma and other large corporations and the absolute lack of ethics/morals and very real risks to us solely for profit.

 

Exactly Morr.

 

Lapis, I doubt that's something doctors tell women and unless a woman does her own research how would she know?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I guess the effects of SSRIs on bone density isn't well known. They also lower sodium levels, which was problematic for me. They can interact with other drugs. There are sexual side effects. There are withdrawal effects. Some effects may be long-term/permanent but it's unclear which one of us will be affected that way.

 

That's six strikes against them for me.

 

I wish I'd been told up front. BEFOREHAND. I believe it's called "Informed Consent".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which brings us back to the message in Peter Gotzche's book, 'Deadly Medicines and Organized Crime'...another small example of how messed up it is out there;

 

I used to be an RN.  We are required to obtain 30 units of continuing education every licencing period.  When I was practicing, we would get them from mail-order clearinghouses, from our place of employment or other medical facilities in the area, or from approved courses taught at colleges and universities...now, drug companies provide 'seminars' in fancy restaurants/hotels, or recruit docs to talk about their latest (repackaged) drug for pffft...whatever!  There were many things I found to be corrupt and slimey-I had a lot of trouble with my conscious while working in 'medicine'...

 

You have heard of this?  http://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/  The doc who kept me on the Klonoin for so long (telling me, yes, it's addictive, but you're on such a small dose, and YOU're SLEEPING...no problem) >:( was taking money for lecturing for them (Pharmaceutical companies) providing CEUs to her co-workers at swank venues.

 

Hey, anything for a buck...we've managed to commodify CARING!!!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[14...]

Which brings us back to the message in Peter Gotzche's book, 'Deadly Medicines and Organized Crime'...another small example of how messed up it is out there;

 

I used to be an RN.  We are required to obtain 30 units of continuing education every licencing period.  When I was practicing, we would get them from mail-order clearinghouses, from our place of employment or other medical facilities in the area, or from approved courses taught at colleges and universities...now, drug companies provide 'seminars' in fancy restaurants/hotels, or recruit docs to talk about their latest (repackaged) drug for pffft...whatever!  There were many things I found to be corrupt and slimey-I had a lot of trouble with my conscious while working in 'medicine'...

 

You have heard of this?  http://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/  The doc who kept me on the Klonoin for so long (telling me, yes, it's addictive, but you're on such a small dose, and YOU're SLEEPING...no problem) >:( was taking money for lecturing for them (Pharmaceutical companies) providing CEUs to her co-workers at swank venues.

 

Hey, anything for a buck...we've managed to commodify CARING!!!!!

 

I hear you, cookie. After I had successfully come off all my meds back in 2006, I was suffering from severe insomnia at 5 months out. I knew nothing about benzo withdrawal and its effect on sleep.

 

I went to see a new pdoc (I'd just moved to a new city) and he put me right back on Klonopin, Welbutrin, Trileptal, and another drug I can't remember. Never said one word about withdrawal effects. When it didn't work, he added Seroquel and I was subdued enough not to argue.

 

I looked him up when Propublica added that to the website and yes, he was getting money from Eli Lily. He ended up placing me on Vibrydd, a SSRI, even with my history of mania. I went into psychotic depression and had to switch doctors because I lost my health insurance when I lost my job.

 

But this pdoc is still on Eli Lily's payroll.

 

Thanks for the info on continuing education being funded by the pharmaceutical companies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I asked my doctor when she put me on Ativan, how hard it would be to get off. She said she'd been practicing for 30 years and never had one problem getting people off benzos.  I continued to ask throughout the 10+ years I was on Ativan and as information became available online and I started to find a lot more about benzos.  She continued to reassure me that she'd never in all of her practice had a problem taking people off benzos. 

 

Sadly for me it turns out that she actually had problems getting people of but refused to recognize it as benzo w/d and every person that came off benzos in her practice who had problems, she "diagnosed" as having a preexisiting mental illness.  They were then put on other drugs to treat this new mystery mental illness. The day she told me that it wasn't benzo w/d, that it was another mystery mental illness that would require more meds, after over ten years with her, I fired her. 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...