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switched to milk Valium micro taper 3 days ago....slammed....scared


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Hi All

 

I am currently at 5mg Valium split 2mg 6am, 1mg noon and 2mg 6pm.

 

After a few weeks of stable from hard dry cuts I decided to milk titrate the 1mg Valium taken at 12 noon.

 

First day 1 added 1mg to 100ml full fat milk and drew out 0.2ml and threw away, drank rest. Felt okay.

 

Next day Monday did same but drew off 4ml instead. That night and since I feel like I made a major cut in dose, yesterday I added the 4ml back in so back to full 5mg but still feel horrible.  Pretty nonfunctional. Complete turnaround in just 2 days.

 

Should I stick on the 100ml milk solution and try and stabilize or go back to taking all tabs again and try dry cutting again.

 

Very scared and confused.

 

Thank you.

 

Maa

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I believe your mistake was drawing out some liquid at first.  When a person switches to titration from dry dosing, the body can perceive this as a cut.  So generally a person just drinks the liquid with the full dose for a while until any symptoms from the switchover dissipate.  This may take 10 to 14 days.

 

Then after the body is accustomed to the liquid delivery system, a small amount is drawn off each day with periodic holds.  I did not titrate so I'm not good with amounts to draw off, but I do know that the first step is to drink the liquid without reducing.  This might be why you got slammed.  You body perceived the change as a large cut. 

 

 

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Thank you for responding Julie  :smitten:

 

Would the advice then be to just stick it out on the liquid/pills combo for another few days? I am scared to make anything worse and so disappointed and angry with myself.

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Thank you for responding Julie  :smitten:

 

Would the advice then be to just stick it out on the liquid/pills combo for another few days? I am scared to make anything worse and so disappointed and angry with myself.

 

Please don't beat yourself up MAA.  We all are feeling our way through this process.  Yes, I would continue just drinking the liquid without reducing, full strength.  It may take several days for the hit to pass.  I'd allow the increased symptoms to settle back down prior to beginning to toss away any of the liquid.  You'll get there.  This happens to a lot of folks.  You're going to be ok once your body adjusts.  :mybuddy:

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Thank you Julie - I am crying as I type this, I really appreciate the help and support.

 

I thought I was going into tolerance but can't be coincidence that this slam started a day or so after my changing to liquid and cuts  :smitten:

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I'd say Juliea is correct.  It sounds like you are adjusting to the switch.  I'd hold and keep liquid dosing for a while.

 

You mentioned you drew out .2ml, but in your sig it says 2ml?  Either way you did not remove much.  Also, are you giving the V time to break up and dissolve?  How are you preparing it?

 

Also, another thing that may cause problems is pill splitting as the pill doesn't always split the same.  One way to avoid this is to make sure you use the other half of the 2mg pill the following day.  Or even better, use a full 2mg pill to make two days worth of doses.  Using 100ml of milk is fine, but it is way more than needed.

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Hi SG

 

Thanks for the reply :)

 

Will update my sig it should be .2ml.

 

I do use the half 2mg tabs on subsequent days.  Is there another way of doing it with less milk? I don't have a mathematical brain at all!

 

I put the 1/2 2mg pill into a lidded glass jar and add 100ml whole milk measured with syringe. Shake about a bit then leave for at least 3 hours before dosing. I drink the whole solution down and then wizz some plain water around a couple of times more and drink that.

 

Any thoughts appreciated.

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So you put 1mg into 100ml.  That is a .01mg/ml concentration.  Each ml contains .01mg V.  So .2ml contains .002mg V.  Hardly any.  That's almost no cut at all. 2ml would be a reasonable starting point.  That would be a .02mg cut.

 

Your method sounds pretty good to me.  Make sure it has time and make sure you mix it enough.  What a lot of people do is make it the night before and let it sit overnight.  I don't think it needs that much time, but why not.

 

Like I said, 100ml is fine, but if you want to use less milk you can.  You could use 1mg into 20ml, then to get a .02mg cut you would withdraw .4ml.

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Hi SG

 

Thank you - yes I don't think the cutting made it much worse it is the change in delivery I think that has thrown me here.

 

Just off the phone to my mother in law and she was told by her GP last week to take her antibiotics on an empty stomach with milk as the milk would get it into the sysyem quicker - guess that means in terms of Valium it goes out quicker to hence why I feel like I made a big cut.

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Just curious why you dose the way you do?  2mg at 6am, 1mg at noon, 2mg at 6pm.  And why you are tapering/eliminating only the noon dose?
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Hi SG :)

 

Originally I was taking 2mg x3 daily. Dosed at same times as do now.  The easiest way to dry cut the v tab was a 2mg in half. I picked the noon dose as I thought it was the one I needed least.

 

Then for some reason which I cannot now fathom I thought eliminating it totally so I would dose just twice daily 2mg and then cut equally from those 2 doses would work for me.

 

Again - Any ideas or suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

Maa :)

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I was just wondering if you needed three doses or not.  With V a few seem to need three, but most are on two.  If you wanted to try two you could simply split your liquid and take half with the 6am and half with the 6pm.  That works out well for you as the doses will be 12 hours apart.  So you could make your cut from the liquid then split it and the two doses would go down together.
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Hi MAA

 

Please don't feel upset about this. It's all part of the benzo tapering craziness. There are often no actual answers or reasons for why things happen the way they do. That's one of the things I still have trouble coming to grips with, because I'm a very logical person and I like to understand why things happen, but that's just not possible with benzos. They are absolutely mind-bending things - literally.

 

As the others have suggested I think you would be best off going back to the full 100ml + 1mg mixture, and holding there for maybe a week. Cutting 0.02mg (or 2ml of the 100ml) per day is a very reasonable and conservative amount. When I started my daily titration from 5mg I initially cut 0.025mg (or 2.5ml) per day, and that was fine for a while, but I did need to reduce to 0.02mg after a while.

 

Hang in there. You will be fine.

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Hi MAA,

 

It sounds like you are only micro tapering one pill. That probably won't work, if that's what you are doing. I agree with the others that you probably should wait a few days before tapering. I didn't because I didn't know any better.  You must have three equal doses spaced evenly apart. It usually takes about 24 hours to make sure your pill is dissolved and dispersed properly although I've heard of 12.  Rather than splitting a pill I put a whole pill in the milk and then make two doses. I'm micro tapering Klonopin. It's working very well for me even from Day One. I think you may be using too much milk but I never really understood the ratio thing. Somebody did it for me. Maybe somebody else can help with that, but there is such a thing as too much.

 

Don't get frustrated there's always a way. You have to have hope. You will be okay.

 

Jenny

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Hey there - just weighing in for support. I am pretty sure I had the exact same post as you a year back! I did the same thing and was feeling strong symptoms switching to milk. Freaked me out - and had to hold. Took me 14+ days - but then normalized.

 

Have been cutting w milk since.  Everyone said to expect that moving to liquid would feel like a cut - and it sure did! Other option is to slowly micro taper up until you feel good  - then start. I didn't do that, but others do.

 

Have been cutting at a .012 mg per day rate since - still have to hold after every .5 reduction or so - but can generally live life and work in a super high stress job. Whenever I have to hold I get frustrated on how long it takes and need to resist speeding up.. 2.4 now..

 

Don't worry and take your time!

 

 

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Thank you all for your words of support, it means a lot to me.

 

This is day 4 now of this bad wave and 6 days since doing the milk thing. I am very scared of not stabilising and being in tolerance  :'(

 

Mark - if you see this - it feels like I took a massive cut - is that how you felt? Were you evenly dosing at the time?

 

I don't know what to do going forward with my uneven dosing, I am scared to change anything else right now.

 

Any help/suggestions gratefully received.

 

Maa  :smitten:

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Hi MAA

 

I noticed you posted on the menstrual support thread. If you are having problems in that area, that can have a very marked effect on your taper. Perhaps that is responsible, and not the actual milk taper. When I got to 1mg for some reason I got hit big time and I still don't understand what caused it. It could have been hormones, or it could have just been that I needed to take a break from tapering, but I ended up having to hold for 2 months.

 

I'm not saying that to worry you. It's just that sometimes shit happens with benzo tapers, and there is no logical explanation for it. That's something I still have trouble with because I'm a very logical person and I like to understand why things happen, but benzos are just plain crazy sometimes.

 

Uneven dosing really shouldn't be a problem. A lot of people take different amounts at different times of the day. Some people also taper one dose first, and then taper the other doses later on. Valium is very forgiving in that respect.

 

I honestly don't think that just switching to a milk taper would have had too much effect on you, because you are still taking the same tablets and you're just adding milk into the equation, and as long as you don't have a problem with milk it shouldn't really matter. It is usually only a problem if you switch the type of valium you are using, like if you switch from tablets to Liquid Valium or maybe if you change brands of tablets, and that's when you probably should hold for a while to get used to the change.

 

As long as you are making sure that your milk is well mixed when you pull your dose, it should be okay. The method of 100ml of milk with 1mg of valium is used by a lot of people and it works well. Just keep holding for a while. I'm sure things will settle soon.

 

 

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MAA, I agree with Mark's comment that if you want to head off the symptoms you are having you could either taper up or just updose a bit.  If we assume the problem is that, somehow, due to the change to milk, you are not getting quite the same dose, then it makes sense that taking a little extra to correct this is a solution.  When you think about it it is not really updosing, but more of a correction to get the same amount of V into you as you were getting with dry pills.
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Hi SG :)

 

Thank you again for checking on me.

 

Dare I say it in a tiny whisper so the beast doesn't awaken again - I woke this morning (now 3.45pm in the UK to YUCK but about 3 hours ago things lifted a bit - not perfect but I will take it!

 

I will hold at dose for a few more days anyway, and then proceed with the tiny cuts people have suggested.

 

Maa  :smitten:

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Hey there -

Yes it felt like a big cut - and I was uneven dosing (still am). At the time was taking 4mg at night and 1 mg during day. Have been cutting from night dose - now down to 1.4 and 1.

 

I believe its because the liquid results in more rapid absorption through your mouth and in the gut than with a pill. This means it hits quicker and wears off quicker.. i.e. acting like a cut at when the dose wears off.  One thing I tried was taking my evening dose with some bread to slow the absorption rate.

 

Key is if you were feeling OK prior - and that is all that changed - then I would be pretty confident the milk adjustment is the issue. Again, many folks seem to feel this - and from my non scientific observation, its those that need to dose more than 1 per day.

 

Hang in there - you will stabilize. When I hit bad symptoms I always fear tolerance - and then after a week or two things normalize!

 

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  • 1 month later...

Just updating this!

 

I have been forced to hold after 4 weeks of daily cutting that I think have finally caught up with me and slapped me round the face.

 

I am now down to 4.6mg v, tapering 0.02ml daily. Is it normal to still get slammed whilst daily tapering? I was going along just fine and then got hit a couple of days ago but worse today.

 

Any thoughts/experience greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

Maa.

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Hi MAA,  Can you remind me how you make your liquid?  And How much you take out each day?

 

Even with daily tapering you need to hold if symptoms increase.  I hope you are doing that?  Never let symptoms increase or try to push through.

 

The reason for symptom increase is not always the taper itself.  There can be external factors like foods and medicines or even life stress.  Look for a reason.

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Hi SG :)

 

I take 2mg in tablet form at about 6am, then I take half a 2mg tablet and add 100ml full fat milk. I leave this in fridge till midday with frequent shakes every hour or so. Then at mid day I draw off with my 5ml syringe my cut. So, I am now drawing off 40ml and drinking the remaining 60ml. I then swish jar with cold water and drink that.  At 6pm I take 2mg tablet. Totalling 4.6mg v daily at the moment. I have cut consistently from 5mg to 4.6 daily without any holds. It has taken me 28 days to lose .4mg with no holds.

 

I really feel like the constant cutting has caught up with me and I should hold and then reduce my rate to maybe 0.015 per day. What do you think?

 

As for life stressors they are unavoidable as I have 2 children aged 12 and 14 and a husband who frequently travels which is why I need to be as stable as possible.

 

This really feels like I took a cut.

 

Thank you.

 

Maa

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During the 28 days of cutting have you noticed any improvement in how you feel?

 

You are doing the right thing by holding right now.  Always keep ahead of symptoms.

 

I like to see people even out doses.  If it were me I'd dose at 8 hour intervals so 6am, 2pm, 10pm.  You have a gap from 6pm to 6am where you get no benzo.  And I'd take 1mg dry and the rest liquid at each dose so I could even them up.  I think it is important to keep doses even and evenly spaced.  But I'm not the final word on that by any means.  Just my observation.

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Hi SG

 

Thank you.

 

I have felt fully functional during the cutting wirh only a few minor symptoms that did not stop me getting on with life. Then about 3/4 days ago I started with headaches and low mood and then today bad anxiety like a cut.  Seems I should have put in a hold at about .2mg cut but I kept on trucking till I reached a .4mg cut and then feel bad.

 

With my benzo brain right now I cannot fathom how to do my dosing if I changed it - could you help me figure it out?

 

Thanks.

 

Maa  :smitten:

 

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