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milk or water! please no arguments!


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Hey all! I'm not looking for arguments just need some advice. I have done soo much research and talked to soo many about the milk/water debate with valium. Most veterans and people I know did/are using water to titrate off valium and they did fine! They struggled just as much as anyone has so went to water to have a smoother taper. BUt then others say milk works better because the v binds to fat in the milk. Is there any scientific evidence on this? It confuses me because milk is only 4 percent fat and 96 percent water/..so I don't know the difference? I know regardless you use you have to shake because it  obviously isnt going to make a suspension. With milk I would be scared because I wouldnt be able to see if its evenly distributed throughout the suspension. But with water i'm scared as I'm assuming it settles faster. I've only met one person who came off of it fine using milk. I've met about 20 who used water. I'm assuming its no different then drinking water with a pill? Any encouragement, advice..evidence..or if you personally did either/or would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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Hi Stacey,  I agree, no arguments!  Let's generate light not heat!!  :) It seems clear that diazepam does not dissolve in water and hard factual info on benzos in milk is hard to come by.  I have looked!  It seems to me this is not something that typically would be researched and reported on.  To me the anecdotal evidence from people tapering that diazepam is soluble in milk is very strong.  And I did find this...

 

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1015881103340

 

One of the drugs in this study is diazepam.  It reports on two things - drug "binding" and drug solubility.  TBH, I don't know the difference.  I know what solubility is but have no idea what binding is.  I did not purchase it to see the entire paper as they want $40.  But here is what is said in the abstract...

 

"Abstract

 

The binding and solubility of nitrofurantoin, piroxicam, indomethacin, prednisolone, diazepam, dicumarol, and griseofulvin in milk were determined at 15, 25, and 37°C in bovine milk samples with fat contents of 0.75 and 3.50%. Drug binding to milk components was independent of drug concentration over the drug concentration studied, and the fat content of milk strongly affected binding values of most of the listed drugs. Further, drug binding increased with decreasing temperatures for most of the drugs examined. The solubility of all drugs is greatly enhanced in milk compared to their aqueous solubility (pH 6.5 phosphate buffer). The high solubility cannot be accounted for solely on the basis of drug binding to milk components. An attempt is made to correlate the binding and solubility data with physicochemical properties of the drugs (logP, pK a, aqueous solubility). The potential significance of these findings is discussed with regard to preparation and in vivo delivery of drugs from drug–milk formulations."

 

 

The sentences I bolded seems to suggest that the fat content of milk improves both binding and solubility of diazepam.  I am assuming that binding is similar to solubility and that increased binding is a good thing.  I wish the entire paper was available, but I am not willing to pay $40 for it.

 

Hope this helps you make your decision. :)

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wow thank you soo much!!! That makes since that it woud obviousy stay "afloat" longer...it's just 8 out of 10 percent of people i've spoken to prefer water over milk. It worked great for them. It seems like this site is the only site i have found that argues it. So its very confusing as I value this site! Thank you so much for the info, friend :)
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Whenever I ask this people are always "jumping the gun" and saying "valium is not water soluable" I never said it was. I know its fat soluable..but i also know more people who use water across the board..as long as they keep it suspended evenly and draw up. so its confusing!
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  • 3 weeks later...
how about polyethylene glycol (miralax) maybe? i just put a 10 mg. V into 4 ounces of water with half a teaspoon of miralax and in less than 3 minutes it appeared to be a true solution. i only used one sixth the recommended dose of the miralax just to see what would happen and it worked. i think using only the half a teaspoon would avoid ''urgency'' issues. lmao. ( so to speak! )
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I titrated both ways and there was no real difference for me either way. Once I got down to the small amount I titrated from, what was going to be was going to be. I believe titration is a good way to prepare to jump, and for me there was no difference while titrating or after the jump. It was hard, plain and simple.

north

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  • 4 weeks later...
Yea I've been doing water titration with valium for weeks now! The whole milk and water debate is ridiculous. There is no PROOF that has been handed to me that valium will bind to milk and make this magical solution. It's kinda goofy to think that it will magically swoosh up from the bottom in sit in the milk evenly as milk is essentially 96 percent water! You have to shake shake shake any liquid you use. Some people even use tea! lol. All will work. milk, water, baby food..all of it!!! I chose water because milk and benzo sounded yucky to my stomach. but any will work :) Just keep it suspended and agitated! I actually got relief when i went to water..i still have symptoms but its getting better...and withdrawal while tapering is obviously to be suspected!
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i personally have gone with OKATZ's vodka-water method. liquid valium from the drugstore is not mixed with milk-baby food-ice cream-tea-coffee-yogurt-apple sauce-ect.-ect. it IS mixed with alcohol to make a TRUE solution. but the water method seems to be working for you and that's all that matters...tc..
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Yea I've been doing water titration with valium for weeks now! The whole milk and water debate is ridiculous. There is no PROOF that has been handed to me that valium will bind to milk and make this magical solution. It's kinda goofy to think that it will magically swoosh up from the bottom in sit in the milk evenly as milk is essentially 96 percent water! You have to shake shake shake any liquid you use. Some people even use tea! lol. All will work. milk, water, baby food..all of it!!! I chose water because milk and benzo sounded yucky to my stomach. but any will work :) Just keep it suspended and agitated! I actually got relief when i went to water..i still have symptoms but its getting better...and withdrawal while tapering is obviously to be suspected!

 

Hi Stacy:  I understand and empathize with your concerns over not being able to visualize valium particles in a milk-based suspension. That would drive me nuts as well.  However, drugs that are not soluble in aqueous solutions, don't always require the non-aqueous solvent (e.g. alcohol, PEG, etc) to be 100% to be dissolved. Sometimes a drug will go in to an organic solvent at concentrations as low as 4%. Thus, 4% fat in the milk "could" be enough fat to keep it suspended.  There was another suggestion upthread to try PEG. If there is hard solubility data on valium in PEG, I might try that one.  :)

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No benzo will dissolve in water or milk..it just makes a suspension not a solution so water and milk both do the same thing :) Thanks guys. <3
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Stacey:  Yes, when I used the term dissolved above, I should have said "dissolved and/or suspended." But my statement is still true. I formulate drug suspension almost daily in my line of work and for drugs that arent soluble in water, I can make suspensions of them using organic solvents, sometimes as low as 4%. The other 96% is comprised of water. :)
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OKay but this place scares people into not using water with valium when i've seen tons and tons who have struggled just like me come off it using water...so why does this place scare people and say NO NO NO people come to my forum petrified because of what bb has done..people who can't drink milk or handle liquid valium or compound that only had a choice to do water..ya know. Are you saying you dont believe it works..or do you think its fine?
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I think water can work but it is not optimal. If people are not able to use milk, there are still other solvents to choose from. But if they really insist on using water it would require very good technique to ensure uniform distribution of particles in the water at the moment one measures off a particular volume.  Very doable, but a more precise/accurate dose would be easier in a more amenable solvent.

 

Hell, you could divvy up sand using water, if the grain size was small, you swirl vigorously, and decant very quickly. :)

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The water vs milk topic is divisive. There are some who say it works for them, and others who say it didn't work for them. There are numerous "scientific" people on BB, who have the appropriate knowledge, and who say that water is not a good idea. However,  if what you are doing is working for you, then don't worry about what other people are saying, because you are never going to get a 100% agreement on the subject, no matter how many times you ask the question.

 

You do have other choices though - you can use alcohol (1ml vodka is plenty to dissolve 1mg valium), then add water to the solution. Even those who have a problem with alcohol shouldn't have a problem with such a small amount like 1ml.

 

You can also use jewellers scales to do tiny dry cuts by weight.

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lol well if its shaken well and evenly suspended i think it works for sure! Ive seen a lot of failed tapers on milk though..and that bothers me. people seem to think they dont have to shake it..that will just magically go through the milk..not true...it might suspend better but you still need to shake shake shake. :)
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OKay PAM but even in milk it needs to be shook..not swooshed side to side..even colin said dont do that when he spoke about titration...but i agree whatever works best! Anyways just wanted to update everyone that water does in fact work...for many many..and all the veterans i've spoken with.
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Well, when I was using milk, I never shook or stirred. I did a side to side swishing mix. It worked perfectly well for me. So like I said - do whatever works for you.

 

FWIW - I have read some information in Colin's titration instructions that I don't think are a good idea, but that's just my opinion. It just proves that no one has the "perfect" titration process, or the process that will suit everyone. You just pick and choose the method that works for you.

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We finally agree to disagree..anyways..pam are you in admin..im trying to figure out how to delete my account..can you help me?
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I've always said that everyone needs to find the method that suits them best - and I have never said that my method is the right or only one. :)

 

I'm not in admin, but if you want to delete your account you need to create a ticket in the helpdesk (link is at the top of the screen).

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OKay but this place scares people into not using water with valium when i've seen tons and tons who have struggled just like me come off it using water...so why does this place scare people and say NO NO NO people come to my forum petrified because of what bb has done..people who can't drink milk or handle liquid valium or compound that only had a choice to do water..ya know. Are you saying you dont believe it works..or do you think its fine?

 

Hi StaceyYvonne,

 

Full-fat milk has a higher viscosity, so is generally a better option. But since some people do not tolerate milk very well, or just don't wish to use it for some other reason, water will be a better option for some.

 

As you mentioned in some of your other comments, milk or water are used a suspension medium (the benzodiazepine does not dissolve). The greater the viscosity, the better the medium will suspend the benzodiazepine particles. There are all kinds of options (liquids and foods) which might be suspend the ground/crushed benzodiazepine pills.

 

When grinding/crushing the benzodiazepine tablets, it is important to obtain the finest powder practical. This is especially true when the liquid being used is of low viscosity (such as water). You are correct: the water (or other liquid) should be agitated (shaken). Vigorous stirring of the liquid would create a strong vortex, resulting in a concentration gradient of benzodiazepine particles from the centre out, with larger (heavier) particles concentrating in the centre, and the smaller particles tending to drift to the outside cylinder or cup. Stirring would result in very uneven distribution of the benzodiazepine within the liquid - this must be avoided!

 

When using a suspension medium of relatively low viscosity (water, milk, etc.), please take note of the following points:

  • The greater the viscosity of the suspension medium, the better;
     
     
  • Grind or crush the benzodiazepine pill into the finest possible powder you can reasonably achieve;
     
     
  • Thoroughly mix the suspension medium and benzodiazepine powder (if the suspension medium is of relatively high viscosity); or vigorously shake the liquid (if it is of relatively low viscosity);
     
     
  • Withdraw or measure out your dose from the liquid/suspension immediately after mixing/shaking, before the particles have had to time to settle.

 

Members of BB can and should use whatever method of withdrawal best suits their needs. If titrating, you should use whatever suspension medium best fulfills your particular requirements. If you find that one method/technique is unreliable - adapt! There is always a way of getting there.

 

If you are being 'pushed' by other members to follow a particular method of withdrawal, you should report the post or PM using the 'Report this Post' or 'Report this Personal Message' functions.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
I did crush and found that to be an unessary step..i did a test and when i grinded verses let it sit in water over night the particles look exactly the same...it might be my brand of  v? Ego do you crush?
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I used fine caster sugar, a mortar and pestle, a 1ml measuring spoon and 10mg valium pills. 10mg valium crushed in mortar and pestle, add 10ml of fine sugar and mix and crush well. Put into container. 1ml or valium prepared sugar equals 1mg valium. To make smaller concentrations, add more sugar to valium. 20ml of fine sugar to 10mg valium equals .5mg valium per ml, and so on. To me, this was the easiest way to make small adjustments in taper. It worked for me. I had a large supply of 10mg valium to work with so I made do with what I had.
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