Tapering in Tolerance Withdrawal

Hello - I'd really like to start a group to get perspective on how people cope with tapering in tolerance withdrawal. I'm fairly new to this. I hit, what I consider to be tolerance, very quickly. I'm ultra sensitive to medication. I never really stabilize and the Ativan hasn't worked for me since about day 12 of being on it. I do not feel like it's in my best interest to C/O to Valium and is not something I'm willing to do at this time. Please share your experiences of tapering through tolerance. I'd love for this to be a supportive thread where we can share tips on how to cope in tolerance and a place to cheer each other on.

 

My constant sx are:

Hopelessness

Vision disturbance (blurry vision)

Crying

Sore muscles (legs)

DP/DR

Intrusive thoughts

Feeling like I'm going insane

Anxiety/panic

*these fluctuate in intensity, but are always present

 

My sx that cycle in and out are:

Agoraphobia

Suicide ideation

Nerve pain

Dizziness

Brain zaps

Depression

 

Thanks, Kiddo 

 

 

Hi Kiddo,

 

I had all of those sxs during acute, but now that I'm tapering, they are almost all gone.  I know that doesn't help, but wanted to help get your thread started 

 

Hugs,

 

Rabbit

 

Hi Rabbit - thanks 

 

Where you in acute from tapering too fast? Or did you stop taking Xanax at some point?

Good idea for a thread. I think people in tolerance withdrawal face different challenges. 

 

I was in tolerance (or relative) withdrawal for years before I started tapering. I also began to have a bit of a paradoxical reaction to Valium about halfway through my taper.

 

Stability wasn't possible, unfortunately. The good news was that, as my taper progressed, I felt better after cutting, and better as I got lower in dosage.

 

My only option was to get off as quickly--but safely--as possible. The Ashton method accomplished that for me. I'm doing so much better now that I'm free. 

 

 

Hi, great idea. Kiddo. N0Klono, Im c/o to Valium. I also have tolerance w/ds, all the ones in your list, plus leg weakness and all overf fatigue. Does it get better when you cross over? I too was going to taper directly from ativan. I have had tolerance and taper w/ds constant for over 6months. So it does get better as you go lower?

Hi, great idea. Kiddo. N0Klono, Im c/o to Valium. I also have tolerance w/ds, all the ones in your list, plus leg weakness and all overf fatigue. Does it get better when you cross over? I too was going to taper directly from ativan. I have had tolerance and taper w/ds constant for over 6months. So it does get better as you go lower?

 

 

Hi, Kiddo. Sorry to hear you're having so many symptoms.

 

At the time I did the crossover to Valium, I'd already cut 50% of my Klonopin in around 6 weeks, which was of course a huge mistake. Consequently, I was a huge mess, not to mention that I was already up to my eyeballs in tolerance withdrawal.

 

I let my shrink talk me into up-dosing 5mg of Valium at the beginning of the crossover, and it did help, but only for about a week before I was a mess again. So, while it gave me some much-needed relief, it was short-term, and it added months to my taper. I regret up-dosing because, in my case, it just prolonged the agony.

 

I'm glad I switched to Valium, though, if for no other reason than that it allowed me to make consistent cuts all the way down. My body was rejecting the Klonopin, for sure, and it eventually rejected the Valium, too, but for me, the Valium was a bit smoother and gentler than Klonopin.

 

If I had it to do over again, I'd have first tried a reasonable taper directly from Klonopin, but who knows if it would have made things easier? I certainly don't want to find out!

 

And yes, things got *markedly* better as I got into the lower doses. I've read of this happening with people even if they aren't in tolerance withdrawal. There are more stories about people having problems at the lower doses, but I'm not sure if that means more people have problems, or if it just seems that way, because people tend to write more about problems than about things going well.

 

Almost all of my physical symptoms were gone by a few weeks post-jump. The only new one I got was a couple of weeks later (the infamous "boaty" sensation), and the vertigo came back for a while. All in all, though, I was shocked by how much better I felt off the dang drug than on it. I was expecting a tsunami. It was downright boring, compared with what I anticipated.

NoKlono, thanks for your informative and reassuring reply. The withdrawls are awful Said my me, over and over....I too am anticipating things to get better as i taper, just as you said was possible. How wonderful for you to feel so much better after being off and that the "end" was "boring". Now....I love that comment.    I'm hoping to cut and hold all the way down after I stabilize, if possible, with the 10mg. Valium. How did you taper down? Hoping it's not too difficult.

NoKlono - that's so great to hear. I expect to also feel better the lower I get, this drug just simply does not work for me and I suspect a lot of my symptoms are actually caused by it.

I believe that people in tolerance w/d do feel better in the lower doses and I think perhaps the people that feel worse are actually just experiencing w/d for the first time as they get lower. There body finally realizes what is happening and starts putting up a fight. Please share with us how you are doing now at 3 months off in comparison to being in tolerance. How long was your taper?

 

Rosegal - I'm not sure, from reading on here it seems to be the case when tapering in tolerance. NoKlono had the experience of gradually feeling better the lower they got in doseage and so do another member I speak with frequently, Laserjet.

 

I will not be crossing over unless I hit a wall I can't get through. I think Ativan tapers are very difficult because of the short duration of action but I also think that allows you to feel you cuts more quickly and hold if needed.

Kiddo, I hope that my taper gets better too as it goes....you have a clear plan about your taper. You are doing great .  Rose

NoKlono, thanks for your informative and reassuring reply. The withdrawls are awful Said my me, over and over....I too am anticipating things to get better as i taper, just as you said was possible. How wonderful for you to feel so much better after being off and that the "end" was "boring". Now....I love that comment.    I'm hoping to cut and hold all the way down after I stabilize, if possible, with the 10mg. Valium. How did you taper down? Hoping it's not too difficult.

 

Hi, rosegal.

 

I basically tapered per Ashton's method after I crossed over to Valium. I cut 1.25mg a week from 20mg down to about 12mg, then I cut 0.5mg a week until I was off. I jumped at 0.5mg.

 

There was one time I held for 10 days. I got progressively worse. Aside from that, I never allowed my symptoms to dictate my schedule. If I had, I'd never have gotten off.

 

I'm not saying that's how everyone should taper, of course, but I just about drove myself crazy reading the forum, looking for the best way, and I finally concluded it didn't exist. There are people who have done turtle tapers who have continued to suffer for a long time after jumping ... there are people who did Ashton tapers who seemed to recover very quickly ... and everything in between and opposite of that. The only thing I'm really sure of is that cold turkey and rapid tapers are almost universally a very bad idea.

 

I think we have to figure out our instincts and trust them, really. There are just too many variables (history, genetics, etc.), not to mention stuff like tolerance withdrawal and paradoxical reactions.

 

In any case, it's all doable. It really is!

 

 

NoKlono - that's so great to hear. I expect to also feel better the lower I get, this drug just simply does not work for me and I suspect a lot of my symptoms are actually caused by it.

I believe that people in tolerance w/d do feel better in the lower doses and I think perhaps the people that feel worse are actually just experiencing w/d for the first time as they get lower. There body finally realizes what is happening and starts putting up a fight. Please share with us how you are doing now at 3 months off in comparison to being in tolerance. How long was your taper?

 

I'm doing much better than I ever expected. The worst of the symptoms that started with the first huge dosage drop included hypersensitivity to stimuli (sound, in particular, was brutal), hallucinations, heart racing, sweats/chills, perceptual distortions, vision problems, social phobia, balance issues, joint/muscle pain ... omigod ... the list goes on and on and ON. These were all pretty much gone by the time I jumped or within a few weeks.

 

I've had two waves, both following pushing myself too hard with exercise. Total stupidity on my part, because I knew better the first time, swore I wouldn't repeat it, then did, a week later.    The current wave isn't nearly as bad as the first one, and it's really only one symptom that returns in a big way: body pain. Ow.

 

At 3+ months off, when not in a wave, I'm left with what was my most intolerable symptom during years of tolerance withdrawal, which is lack of motivation (i.e., anhedonia). This is a tough one, and I can't wait for it to go. I'm currently trying to figure out a way to speed that up.

 

I'm also still feeling quite anti-social, uncreative, cognitively foggy ... but it's hard to separate all that from the anhedonia, if that makes any sense.

 

This probably all sounds a lot worse than it is. I'll put it this way, when someone asked how I was during my taper, I felt like weeping (lol). Now I'm more inclined to say that I'm fine. And I am, all things considered, and certainly compared with how I was during my taper.

 

It will likely be awhile before I'm 100%, but I was on Klonopin for a long time. I was on Ativan before and during the time I was on Klonopin. I was on a slew of other psych meds over the past 25 years, as well. Aaaaand I messed up my taper early on.

 

My point (and I do have one! I think!) is that some people reading my history and tapering rate/timeframe (11 months, total) would conclude that I was in for a heap of suffering, and I want to be clear that I'm not going through active suffering at all, aside from the two waves I've had. I'm well enough that my son fully expects me to start riding roller coasters and practicing my martial art again. I'm not ready for that, but I'm glad I'm well enough that he expects it.

 

Geez, sorry for going on so long! 

 

Shutting up now. 

noKlono, Talk all you wish. I agree about the different tapers and length of time...the cut and hold is what I plan. Also to keep it simple, slow enough, based on symptoms, no sudden stop. I appreciate your sharing the taper that worked for you. I have read and researched on this forum and you have real, sensible thoughts on the matter. Just like several other buddies that reply. The social and motivation aspects are issues for me too. You didn't go on talking too much, I loved hearing about the rollercoaster and martial arts with your son. It made me smile.   Healing days keep comin!  rose

I agree - I was very happy that your son sees that type of improvement with you. I have to get well and off this junk for my kids. I want to be the cool mom I was just 3 shorts months ago.

 

My question is: what was your first large drop? I don't see that in your signature. Those symptoms all stayed with you throughout your taper until jumping (or shortly after)? Do you attribute that to your first large cut?

noKlono, Talk all you wish. I agree about the different tapers and length of time...the cut and hold is what I plan. Also to keep it simple, slow enough, based on symptoms, no sudden stop. I appreciate your sharing the taper that worked for you. I have read and researched on this forum and you have real, sensible thoughts on the matter. Just like several other buddies that reply. The social and motivation aspects are issues for me too. You didn't go on talking too much, I loved hearing about the rollercoaster and martial arts with your son. It made me smile.   Healing days keep comin!  rose

 

Thanks, rosegal. 

 

 

I agree - I was very happy that your son sees that type of improvement with you. I have to get well and off this junk for my kids. I want to be the cool mom I was just 3 shorts months ago.

 

My question is: what was your first large drop? I don't see that in your signature. Those symptoms all stayed with you throughout your taper until jumping (or shortly after)? Do you attribute that to your first large cut?

 

And thank you, too, Kiddo. 

 

My first large drop was cutting half the Klonopin in about 6 weeks, from 2mg to 1mg. (That's the equivalent of cutting 20mg of Valium.)

 

It started to hit me pretty hard after I'd cut half a milligram, but not knowing any better, I kept going and cut another half a milligram.

 

I actually thought I was going really slow. 

 

The symptoms all hit me like a tsunami. It was unbelievable. They didn't stay like that for my whole taper, though, no. I kept most of the symptoms, but it wasn't 24/7, and I had a lot of windows during the last half of my taper. Everything became much less intense as I got lower in dosage.

 

But yeah, that first big drop did some damage, for sure. It was just awful, and I think it took me months to get over it. I did get past it, however, even though I continued to taper the Valium.

 

I think my body was just so done with benzos.

 

Unfortunately, benzos weren't done with my body....

 

 

 

 

Kiddo,  I think my issue with benzos was that I had unwittingly detoxed my body with juicing greens and beets, I think that's what threw me into acute.

 

Feeling very depressed today. Loss of my kitty on Friday morning and I just feel like this is such a long journey in front of me.  I don't know if I can do it.  It seems overwhelming today.  My physical symptoms are fine, it's the mental ones at this point. I feel like at some point in my taper I will be unstable again and cause myself to lose my job, health ins. etc and I'm the breadwinner of our family.  This is surely an awful journey.  God please help me.

 

Love,

 

Rabbit

My sweet sweet Rabbit......you are half way my friend. You are grieving and in w/d and that is hell on earth. The sun will shine again. Grab hold of your faith and don't let go. I am the same, my mental symptoms are the ones I struggle with the most.....the fear, the anxiety, the despair. It's the drugs. It's not us. Your loss is compounded right now with all the other garbage you are going through. Keep putting one foot in front of the other and try not to "what if" everything, it'll feed the fear. You have a strong and beautiful spirit, Rabbit, you are going to make it. Xoxox

Thank you Kiddo for those uplifting and encouraging words.  Back at ya girlfriend 

::::. The worst of the symptoms that started with the first huge dosage drop included hypersensitivity to stimuli (sound, in particular, was brutal), hallucinations, heart racing, sweats/chills, perceptual distortions, vision problems, social phobia, balance issues, joint/muscle pain ... omigod ... the list goes on and on and ON. These were all pretty much gone by the time I jumped or within a few weeks.

 

Wow Noklonono, so you put up with these s/x for 11 months?  It's hard to understand the mechanism of how the s/x eased up as you got lower in your dose...      I have just done my first cut .5 and two weeks of sweating and prickling skin has made me so fearful of future cuts.    But it seems that you just ignored the suffering and at your next 2 week date?    Are you male or female?  You sound so strong and brave.    I have 8.5mgs and it seems like I have so far to go and so much pain ahead to endure...  I have mental and physical.  But I think I'm a little paradoxical to valium.    I'm one of the really unlucky ones that has terrible butt pain with me 24/7 (neurologist says it won't get better till I get off benzo's).    Sitting and laying on my butt is so painful.    I tend to think I'm going to have to keep cutting regardless as like you I feel I have no hope of getting off valium if I don't put up with the horrible s/x.    Did you feel hopeless or were you just so determined that you did not let the suffering get to you?....   

 

Good thread thanks Kiddo....

Hi Wiser - I know your question was directed at NoKlono and I'm sure she will answer but in my experience, everything you are feeling is normal. I often feel hopeless, despair, depression, anxiety. I also get what I call "nerve burn" but it comes and goes. My tailbone and but pain has been constant and it's very uncomfortable so I can relate. NoKlono is one tough cookie, but tapering in tolerance is a whole other ball game as stabilizing isn't really possible IMO. I reached tolerance very quickly. I read on the boards here that a good way to tell if you are in tolerance is to do a small updose, if you get relief for only short time then you are likely in tolerance. I did this and confirmed my suspicion. Unfortunately, I too have to muscle through. I've held for weeks and weeks with no relief, I updosed and had relief for 5 days only. I hope like, NoKlono, that the lower I go in dose the better I will feel.

 

Do you stabilize between cuts? It could be just that your first cut was so big and you need to hold a little longer 

I've been holding for 2 weeks.    I am not really stable and am not sure that I will get to be stable by waiting - updosing is not an option - it would be too demoralising and I think as soon as I start cutting again I will have w/d.  I wasn't really stable after my c/o because pdoc didn't want me to go above 9mgs and I needed 9.5 (ashton manual) or 10mgs to feel good.  I also cut quite soon after the c/o.   

 

How bad is your butt pain?  Mine is really bad all of the time and skin is so sore.    I think I sound a bit like you actually.  Very similar s/x and yes a year ago I was a different person.  Every day is a battle to keep going and believe I can get thru it.  What option is there?

Wiser - you are right......what other option do we have? None. That probably contributes to our fear and despair. But we WILL get through it.

 

My butt pain I would consider more than moderate but less than severe. I can sit directly on my butt like a normal person. It feels likes it my tailbone but also my cheeks. When I'm in bed I lay on my side if I have to sit in a chair I have to sit very straight  to help take pressure off. I had a ROHO cushion for a couple months and it was amazing. If you google it you can read about it. They are very expensive but I have a medical supply place nearby that rents them for $30 p/month.  I'm going to get it again, I had it because I was in a wheelchair for 2.5 months from a leg injury. Anyway, if you have access to something like that in your area I would highly recommend it .

 

Just google ROHO cushion.

 

Hope that helps 

Whoops,  our benzo brains are interfering with our memory.  We've talked abut this before.    I can only buy one for $800+ dollars which is much the same as US dollars.     

 

How old are you?  I'm 61.  The mornings are the worst.  Always feel so shakey and depressed in mornings..

 

xx

Oh geez - we did too!!!! 

 

I'm 37 and mornings are the worst for me too, although I'm seeing a slight change in this and my afternoons are starting to get a little dicey. I may start moving my doses around a little to see if I can ward of the beast in the afternoon.

Wow Noklonono, so you put up with these s/x for 11 months?  It's hard to understand the mechanism of how the s/x eased up as you got lower in your dose...      I have just done my first cut .5 and two weeks of sweating and prickling skin has made me so fearful of future cuts.    But it seems that you just ignored the suffering and at your next 2 week date?

 

No, I didn't ignore the suffering. That would have been impossible. I just cut every week despite it, because out of all the crappy choices, that seemed to be the least crappy. I also had a lot of windows during the last part of my taper, which helped a great deal.

 

    Are you male or female? 

 

Female. 

 

I have 8.5mgs and it seems like I have so far to go and so much pain ahead to endure...  I have mental and physical.  But I think I'm a little paradoxical to valium.

 

Aw, wisernow, this is so, so hard. I know. I really do. It's been both mental and physical for me, also, and I was paradoxical, too, so I really do sympathize. And it sucks. Really, really sucks. Major, unfathomable suckage right there...   

 

What do you do to cope with your symptoms? I found it helped somewhat to have a plan in place for dealing with symptoms, especially the ones that would attack all at once without warning.

 

    I'm one of the really unlucky ones that has terrible butt pain with me 24/7 (neurologist says it won't get better till I get off benzo's).    Sitting and laying on my butt is so painful.    I tend to think I'm going to have to keep cutting regardless as like you I feel I have no hope of getting off valium if I don't put up with the horrible s/x.   

 

I had an excruciating butt (rectal ... ew) pain episode in tolerance withdrawal, while I was still on the full dose of Klonopin, and I'm wondering if it's the same. I hope not! It woke me out of a dead sleep, and I didn't know what was going on. It was really severe. Like, "I'm actively dying now" kind of severe. I was in too much pain even to call out and get to the emergency room, which was where I thought I probably needed to be at the time. Yowza.

 

I hope that's not what you have, wiser. Looking back, I think it was probably a muscle spasm in my case, but I don't know. It never happened again. Can muscle spasms be that severe? I've had muscle spasms since, but none that bad. This was on par with kidney stone/childbirth pain ... no exaggeration.

 

Well, whether it's that level of pain or not, it sounds awful. Did your neurologist have any ideas for helping it? Can you take something non-GABA for it, like for muscle relaxation or pain? 

 

Did you feel hopeless or were you just so determined that you did not let the suffering get to you?....   

 

Both. I felt hopeless and I was determined not to let it get to me. The hopeless part is a benzo lie. I still spend a good part of my day telling it to shut the hell up.

 

One thing that might happen if you're paradoxical is that you'll start to feel better after a cut. That's what happened to me. It took awhile, and it was subtle at first. It became more pronounced, then, and finally, about 24 hours after almost every cut, I got a window. In the last part of my taper, I looked forward to cutting my dose. It was that dramatic. I'd feel markedly better for a few days, then progressively worse until it was time to cut again.

 

I'm not saying it will work that way for you, of course. There's no way to know. But just keep in mind that it's possible, and try to keep in mind also that the way you feel now isn't at all the way you'll necessarily feel tomorrow or next week or next month. Try to resist the temptation to resign yourself to a symptom and think it's here to stay, because the chances are good that you won't keep feeling what you're feeling now. It's hard to process that, especially in the middle of it, because we're used to getting sick, being sick, then getting (however slowly) better. Withdrawal often doesn't work that way, and things can completely change from day to day. I've had symptoms vanish, come back weeks or months later, and vanish again. As hard as it is, opening the door and letting them pass on through may be our best strategy.

 

Wishing you windows, wiser...

 

I don't know if I'm paradoxical but I know that I have never felt good on valium.    I'm 61 and still reeling at the shock of what has happened in the last few months.    My butt pain is all over buttock pain.    Oregonkatz that that rectal pain you had but so far mine is all over.  Sitting is very very painful.  Also the skin over my buttock is extremely sensitive, can't stand clothes against it. 

 

I don't have a plan for coping with the s/x - I just get really teary.    (what was your plan?)    I'm only having s/x individually because I am afraid to go too fast in the taper.        I think at my age, I feel I've been thru some really bad experiences and I thought it was plain sailing for a few years and now this is way worse than anything I've had to deal with in my life.  (and I've had a couple of really crap deals to cope with!!!)  I don't feel strong enough to cope with too much pain so won't be able to do what you did.  I could never cut once a week, it would be way too fast for me.  I'm a small build and need to be able to eat. 

 

Can you tell me why you weren't like the BB's who c/o'd to valium and got stable and then tapered slowly?  Why did you think you were paradoxical?    Interested to hear how it was for you?    I did read quite a bit of your comments recently on the cut and hold method of tapering.        I know of others who have done similar to this and succeeded but I don't believe I'm made of such strong stuff!!!    :-( 

 

many thanks... 

wiser, im 61 also. just beginning valium.. Not sure it is right for me... depressed and spacey...Im not sure how i will cut also. I think is was easier for me on the ativan to cut. I was shakier, but now Im shakey and tired? I just don't know ..So mixed up..