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Cross-Over to Valium Support Thread


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Jerry - I have read many of your posts. Valium is the way to go man. Every day you screw around trying to decide which Benzo you want to poison you is another day lost in the great tapering game. Tried and true Buddy. Ashton stamped. Nobody on here or anywhere else in the world can convince you. Just c/o to the appropriate equilvalent dose of Valium plus 20% and get tapering.

I know, I know, who the heck is etown? Ask around I'm sure you'll get some positive answers.

etown :thumbsup:

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I agree with Etown...

You are not getting anywhere waiting around, Jerryk.

For me, the Valium cross over was the best decision.

 

Everyone is different. We can not guarantee how you will feel on Valium. But you know how you feel on Xanax. If you can't taper from it, you got to make a move and do something..!

 

Best,

Moo

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[f2...]

Hi,

 

I was wondering if anyone switched from Ativan or any other benzo and experienced depression from Valium and had to go back to their old benzo?  If you stuck with the valium, did the depression get worse?

 

 

Thanks,

God bless you,

Deborah

 

I was going nuts on Ativan , which obviously made me very depressed, since I could not function at all.

When I started Valium, I felt super sedated and it freaked me out a bit. That's because I just didn't know what was happening to me. Looking back, I should have just leaned I to that and waited till it passed, because it was a thousand times better than the Ativan inter dose crazy train.

The sedation made me feel numb and zombie like. And it dulled my feelings, for sure.

Which made me feel depressed, since I could not connect to anything or anyone.

 

But it wore off. And I am very well on my way with my taper.

I don't feel happy, happy, joy,joy on it. But for sure not as awful as on Ativan!

 

I kind of got used to it.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Moo

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Hi 'Moo'...I posted a question or two here last night (hoping for some c/o advice); it was on this thread on Tues. aft., but no sign of it now. I'm just wondering what might have happened...I lost my first post re: same topic (my computer klutziness), but not sure what to think. I'd really love to get some ideas from you on c/o. Should I make a third post, and hope three times lucky...arghhh!!

 

OOOPS, sorry, must be that notorious :-[ benzo brain, i.e. my post is still up there (on previous page). If Moo or anyone else has any feedback re: smoother c/o process as opposed to my first experience, it would be much  :thumbsup: appreciated...thanks.

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ARGHH, I could cry!! Just spent about an hour kind of going into a bit of detail re: my failed c/o attempt a while ago...me/computers/gah!!!! So, I'll just try to quickly re-cap, sigh. I've been looking forward to kind of picking your brain, 'Moo,' what with the stuff you've learned through your hard fought battle (enjoyed you inspiring-wow-blog).

 

After crashing at almost exactly the start of week/stage 4 of the Ashton c/o, I up dosed to 4 mg after experiencing what felt like totally out of the blue rotten neuropathic back pain (my main s/x, since tapering). After a week, I dropped to 3.5, and this week to 3.0...much like after my not-so-great titration taper fail, except a bit less time at each dose.

 

Grrr! back is still not real happy, but hoping it'll settle down soon; want to be stable for another c/o, which will ideally go a LOT better. I do think I learned some helpful things i.e. should have listened to body/brain during week 3, when after first 2 easy stages, had some hints of s/x.

 

Valium should have built up a fair amount-I'm thinking-after 3 weeks...but I didn't feel sedated at all. I'm small, but pretty hyper, so my metabolism revs high (think hummingbird?). I guess the main thing my 'crash' may be telling me is to slooooow down next time.

 

I've read quite a few folks have found Ashton too fast for them; I'm in this for the long haul, and would far rather take more time, and 'succeed.' I had been nervous about the whole Valium thing, but the first 2 weeks were so easy...I sort of thought I should stick to the chart.

 

Obviously, that didn't work, so here I am-back to the drawing board. I'm really grateful you are steering this thread, and hopehopehope you will have some impressions/feedback on how to improve my c/o (a LOT!) next time. It would be great if you could let me know if you feel my 'analysis' of what went wrong makes sense, or ??

 

I've heard a bit about up dosing the Valium (as opposed to Ashton's chart) at times; not sure if I understand that, exactly. I do get that if you go higher, you have more to taper.  I also understand that we all have different biochemistry etc., and it's not an exact science re: Ashton chart amounts to c/o.

 

I'm just demoralized about my c/o splat!, and afraid that I won't get it right...again. Which is why I'm here, asking what you think. Any comments/advice you might have will be appreciated a ton. Thanks for your time, and all you do on BB...

 

Hi there...

 

Sorry your post was overlooked...

It think this thread has been silent for a while and I caught up on the last page or so...

 

I'm a bit confused a bout a couple of things:

- you say you crossed over? But did you go back to Ativan then?

- I'm not sure where you are at right now. At 4 mgr? Of what? Valium or Ativan?

 

If you are on  Ativan, what is it you'd like to know? Help with a cross over plan?

 

Thanks for the kind words...

 

Let me know where you are at and on which benzo and we can help you figure it out okay?

 

Oh and  yes, sometimes people updose a bit during their cross over. I did. I was in acute withdrawal on Ativan and could not get it done without. That does not have to be like that for everyone though...

If you are on 4 mgr Ativan, that is equal to 40 mgr of Valium.

Which is not a little amount. So you doses would be quite large and you might be okay with updosing.

 

But let's get sorted out first what's exactly going on..okay?

 

Moo

 

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I'm about to give up , the 3rd swap, .125mgs of k for 2mgs of v..so far its doable for me but this last time I had to wait 2 weeks instead of 1.....then I will have .25 of k in the afternoon to get rid of...keep hydrated, this stuff messes with your bladder....sleep is better , pain has eased, ears not ringing, a lot of ruminating has stopped, I did once updose at night 1mg of v and the depression the next day wasnt worth it so I'll stick to the 2mgs at a time and wait it out..thanks you guys, etown for the help...I would know nothing about this stuff if I hadnt come here..I now educate my doctor for heavens sakes.....flower
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My 2 cents on Lorazepam to Valium c/o..so far!        Hope it helps somebody :)

 

In second week of c/o from 1.25 mg (actual) Lorazepam to  13mg Valium. I just exchanged my third of 5 daily doses

 

First day and a half were tough. I could feel the LZP being jealous ad throwing a fit but the Valium was covering it enough to tolerate it.

The Dr. did tell me too go to 15 mg but i worked to hard getting down on LZP to go that high...but if i need to i will. Gonna try 13 mg first.

I did take another 1 mg of valium the first night as i woke up in W/d pretty bad...it settled me and was able to go to sleep again. I allso took another 1.5 dose at another point but the next day went back on schedule with no issue...i actually did better. It was like a breather to get mmy mind set again and it worked well.

 

The Valium is for sure more sedating than the LZP but it does ease up. I have felt some sadness as well but really it was welcome because i couldnt feel it on LZP for 9 months. Feeling and processing sadness is something i feel we must do...but if it is too much then get help. I dont feel at this point it is a major issue...i did expect it to be worse from reading some posts but it is very tolerable so far.

 

I have had some vertigo ( new sxs) but it didn't last long. Actually having it a bit today for the second time so i am resting today.

 

Continue to walk every day which helps.....and eating red potatoes every day which i discovered helped me tremendously.

 

Now here is the greatest part for me.  In the last week i have had some windows that were bordering on bliss...and they lasted most of the day. One for half a day and then some w/d but not like LZP w/d's

I think my body likes getting off LZP

 

The Valium seems to texture (smoothes them out) the i/d w/d. Like i said earlier...i can feel both working one in w/d and Valium smoothing it...kinda weird.

In day 8 now and the i/d w/d not so bad as the beginning but i can feel the w/d more today from the LZP....it iis almost time for my next dose of LZP so it should smooth more.

 

Overall i recommend the c/o so far!  Just the window days were worth it. It gave me hope that i can still feel normal and good in my life. Hope to go on with more strength knowing  it really is just the drugs and not me.

I also would allow yourself to take a sliver more of Valium between doses if it gets bad. It really worked for me.

 

Lastly i like keeping the 5 x a day schedule for now even though the Valium lasts longer.

 

My plan is to sit with the lower c/o dose of Valium for a few weeks before i start cutting.

 

Valium is to me so far a much better drug for humans than Ativan/Lorazepam

 

Again i hope this helps some in their decisions

 

Shasta

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[f2...]

Hi Shasta!

All good signs!

 

The Valium made me weepy at first. Kind of depressed and sad. But once the sedation wore off after a week or 2-3 I was much better.

 

Emotions are coming back more as I drop as well.

 

I held for about 3-4 weeks before making my first cut.

 

The windows are so helpful, aren't they? I still have bad days but I don't freak out over them anymore like I did on lorazapam. Because in time, we will see that the bad days always pass and it's not as scary. And once you had a couple of good days, we can better deal with the bad ones...

 

Thanks for sharing. Sure it will give some hope to the people still in the worst spot.

 

:smitten:

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Hi Moo, thanks so much for getting back to me. I'll try to make things a bit more clear ::) re: my present situation. About 3 weeks ago (start of stage 4 of Lor. to Val. c/o, when I went 'splat') I bounced my Lor. from 1.5 + Val. up to 4 mg Val. and no Val.

 

After a week I stepped down to 3.5 mg Lor., and after another week, down to 3 mg; I followed this rough schedule in Feb. after my titration taper tanked at just under 2 mg Lor., and things went fairly okay. This time around I'm struggling more with s/x i.e. nausea, sweats, back tension/pain.

 

Guess maybe it's kindling, or I shouldn't have just cut out the Val., or I didn't wait long enough to feel more stable as I cut each week-3.5 mg was bearable, but I've been at 3 mg a week now, and still feeling pretty rotten. I'm just hoping I'll start to stabilize more, soon.

 

When I started my c/o 6? weeks or so ago, I was very stable on 3 mg Lor., and the first couple of weeks/stages of the Ashton taper seemed easy, the third not bad...then bleah, sigh. When(?!) I-please, please-get stable on 3 mg Lor., I would like a c/o 'do-over,' but I'd go slower and listen to my body etc.

 

If you have any advice/comments on my present situation (struggling to stabilize at 3 mg Lor.), and how I might set myself up to succeed on the c/o when I'm ready, I would be soooo grateful. Hope I've been able to describe things better this time!? Thanks so much...

 

p.s. I know you can't answer all 'posts/problems' instantly and magically ::); I just double checked the things you wanted me to clarify, and I think I managed to do that?? Also, I totally appreciate your reassuring manner.

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[f2...]

Hi Moo, thanks so much for getting back to me. I'll try to make things a bit more clear ::) re: my present situation. About 3 weeks ago (start of stage 4 of Lor. to Val. c/o, when I went 'splat') I bounced my Lor. from 1.5 + Val. up to 4 mg Val. and no Val.

 

After a week I stepped down to 3.5 mg Lor., and after another week, down to 3 mg; I followed this rough schedule in Feb. after my titration taper tanked at just under 2 mg Lor., and things went fairly okay. This time around I'm struggling more with s/x i.e. nausea, sweats, back tension/pain.

 

Guess maybe it's kindling, or I shouldn't have just cut out the Val., or I didn't wait long enough to feel more stable as I cut each week-3.5 mg was bearable, but I've been at 3 mg a week now, and still feeling pretty rotten. I'm just hoping I'll start to stabilize more, soon.

 

When I started my c/o 6? weeks or so ago, I was very stable on 3 mg Lor., and the first couple of weeks/stages of the Ashton taper seemed easy, the third not bad...then bleah, sigh. When(?!) I-please, please-get stable on 3 mg Lor., I would like a c/o 'do-over,' but I'd go slower and listen to my body etc.

 

If you have any advice/comments on my present situation (struggling to stabilize at 3 mg Lor.), and how I might set myself up to succeed on the c/o when I'm ready, I would be soooo grateful. Hope I've been able to describe things better this time!? Thanks so much...

 

p.s. I know you can't answer all 'posts/problems' instantly and magically ::); I just double checked the things you wanted me to clarify, and I think I managed to do that?? Also, I totally appreciate your reassuring manner.

 

Okay, so to be absolutely clear, you've tried crossing over but didn't go through with it.

And now you're at 3 mgr Ativan.?

And wanting to start a cross over?

 

If so, that's no problem....

A crossover plan seems like a lot of work but really isn't.

If you could let me know what times of day you dose and how much at each dose, that would be important to know....

 

Also, no reason to wait to cross over, IMO. People cross over to Valium if they can NOT taper off of their original benzo.

Tapering off of your original benzo is what's recommended by dr, Ashton IF possible.

The ones that crossed over could not..

 

I was not stable AT ALL when I cross over. That was the whole reason to start Valium instead, in the first place.

 

Let me know and I try to come up with an example plan and you see if that sounds okay to you?

Is that what you'd like?

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Thank you sooo much, Moo-I'm glad I was able to state things a bit more clearly, and thanks also for mentioning what kind of place you were at when you did your c/o. If you can help me with a c/o plan, that would be fantastic (following Ashton to the letter worked for the first 2-3 stages, with my 'c/o 1.0,' but after that, not so much :-[).

 

I've been dosing 3 x /day, at 8 hour intervals-1 mg. each dose. My schedule right now is bedtime/breakfast/late aft. i.e. midnight/eight/four...give or take, although I try to stick to the time as closely as possible (forgot dose for a while once or twice, when I was more stable, yikes).

 

Right now I have both 1 mg and .5 mg Lor. pills, and 5 mg Val. pills.  I'm totally open to your advice/suggestions-and again, thanks a bunch!!

 

p.s. I like your 'avatar :)'...from child of M-o-O?!

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[f2...]

Okay...

I will have to check again on Ashton's protocol on crossing over.

I used Dr. Pearts cross over, which was way faster.. Like 17 days. I was in a hurry,since so awful on Ativan,..

 

Which dose do you want to start switching with?

I think I started with my pm dose, because the Valium made me drowsy, so I could sleep.

 

Do you do the half Ativan/ half Valium for one dose . Then wait and then full Valium for that dose ?

and then move to the next one?

 

Going to check it out...

:smitten:

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[f2...]

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=101814.msg1309840#msg1309840

 

This is a link to my own cross over Peart style cross over...

 

And this is what it would look like according to the Ashton manual for 3 mgr Ativan, which is 30 mgr Valium.

 

                                    Morning.                    Afternoon.                Evening

 

Starting dose.              1 mgr Ativan.            1 mgr Ativan.          1 mgr Ativan

 

 

Stage 1. ( one week)      1 mgr Ativan.          1 mgr Ativan.          0.5 mgr Ativan plus 5 mgr Valium

 

Stage 2. ( one week).    0.5 A plus 5 V.          1 mgr Ativan.          0.5 Ativan plus 5 mgr Valium

 

Stage 3. ( one week).    0.5 A plus 5 V.          0.5 A plus 5 V.        0.5 A plus 5 V

 

Stage 4. ( one week).    0.5 A plus 5 V.          0.5 A plus 5 V.        10 mgr Valium. Stop Ativan

 

Stage 5. ( one week).    10 V . Stop A.            0.5 A plus 5 v.          10 V

 

Stage 6  ( one week).    10 V.                          10 V.                      10 V

 

 

Then doctor Ashton reommends in her schedule to drop 2 mgr every 1-2 weeks till reaching 16 mgr.

Then drop 1 mgr every 1-2 weeks till reaching 10 mgr.

 

I know I could NEVER have dropped a mgr, let alone 2 in 14 days. But you're on double what I started with, so when that time comes, you will see what you can deal with.

 

There are many ways to cut smaller if you can't pull it off.

Remember than the 5-10 percent taper rate is a rule of thumb, not an exact given for everyone....

We must go as fast or slow as our bodies allow.

Is not a picnic, but we don't have to make it absolute torture by going waaaay to quick.

 

Hope this helps?

 

 

 

 

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I really appreciate the time and effort you've put into helping me, Moo. I feel reassured, and better equipped to tackle things. Will just have to listen to brain/body, along with following basic plan you kindly outlined...thank you again!
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Hello,

 

I am posting this based on my doc meeting today...last night was the worst yet:

 

I am currently at 3.5 mg Temazapam after trying to titrate down to 3.2 (too much w/d) so I went back to the last dose that seemed manageable (although at 3.5, I am still suffering (

 

I went to my PDoc and she wants me to do a straight crossover to Valium 2 mg starting this evening.  The Ashton Method doesn't seem to give specifics on crossing over at such low levels of benzos.

 

I am concerned that switching over completely will cause me to:

 

1.) Not sleep

2.) suffer even more withdrawal symptoms (currentlu experiencing Nausea, diarrhea, cold sweats, insomnia and weight loss

3.) lengthen the process

 

Anybody have any experience here and if so, please offer me your insights.

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[f2...]

Het Mottaloves,

 

I just responded to your pm. Please get back to me on that and we can continue the conversation here on the thread after some info I would need to help out with a cross over plan, if that's what you'd like.

 

I have not read the previous posts here yet and will do so this afternoon, so that I'm updated on your situation.

No worries. We will find something out together and with the help of buddies, okay?

Right here with ya.

 

Moo

 

 

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Hello Mom of One,

 

Hi,

 

Here's all my info:

 

Psych wants me to go to 2 mg of valium directly without continuing on the Temazapam.

 

She also likes the idea of me doing a 3-5 day impatient detox - which is available to me.  Just got off of the phone with them.  I am interested in your thoughts about something as drastic (or is it) as that.

 

Your questions (I have answered next to the Me):

 

Crossing over might cause some added Wd symptoms before the Valium builds up in your body. This takes up about 3-4 weeks.

 

Me - ON such a low dose, still that long?

 

 

It's all about what you chose. You don't want to lengthen the process, which I totally get.

But not he other hand, if you taper a bit longer but Wd symptoms are tolerable, IMO it's very worth it.

 

Me - I want less WD symptoms as I am trying to continue working.

 

What would you like me to do?

I could write you out a taper schedule on the thread. As a suggestion? Pert style?

 

Me - I would definitely appreciate you doing this, as faster is better.

 

In what doses does temazepam come?

 

Me:  Temazapam is only in capsules.  7.5, 15, 22.5 and 30 mg.

I have been having a compounding pharmacy create a 3.5 mg and 2.0 mg for me.

 

 

What mgr are your pills?

 

Me:  3.5 capsules

 

And at what times a day do you dose?

 

Me: I have always only taken the Temazapam at night for sleep.  Nothing else.  IT would make me too tired.  I have to be able to work. I run a gym.

 

 

For me, switching to Valium was the best decision. You will be able to taper in small amounts, by just listening to your body and cutting accordingly.

 

ME: Can you provide both a direct taper and cross over Pert schedule?

 

 

How fast does you doctor want you to taper?

 

Me:  She is looking at 2 mg of valium for 2 weeks, then either a .5 cut for 2 weeks, or .25 cut for 2 weeks etc.

 

 

 

Me: With that, can you create a script and what do you think about the 3-5 day detox option?

 

Thank you...I 'll await your response.

 

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[f2...]

Here is the answer I gave Mottaloves in a pm...

 

Do you mind if I copy your last pm to the cross over thread?

I would most definitely NOT recommend detox. At all....

Detox works for other kinds of drugs, such as opiates etc.

Not for benzo's.

 

The only healer after benzo use is time. Since your GABA receptors have been pruned back and only in time will they regenerate again...

It will be such a shock to your system... And might even take you longer to recover from that than a taper.

If you need to work..I'm afraid that won't happen after a detox.

The real witdrawal will start after you leave detox.....

They just make sure you're not getting a seizure etc. And get the benzo out of your system. Which is NOT what you want, abruptly..

That's my thought on it. And I'm sure you will get the same response on the threads....

 

Moo

 

 

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So a detox on such a low dosage taper is not recommended?  I know it might shock the system, but the way I've been feeling now and trying to work and not being able to sleep has been almost unbearable.  I forgot to mention that the biggest problem I am suffering with is the way the w/d is affecting my guts.  I have had severe "IBS" "Functional Bowel Disease" for years and this had made it 10- times as bad. Lack of sleep and this type of turbulence are hurting me terribly. I am getting off of this terrible drug because in many ways I believe it has made my gastro situation far worse and leaving it can only help me.
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[f2...]

Well, it is up to you, of course. But detox off benzo's is not recommended. 2 mgr is still not peanuts.

It's a cold turkey off of benzo's. And your withdrawal xs could increase a lot, when abruptly stopping , even on 2 mgr.

That's my thoughts about it.

 

IMO, you would be better of switching to Valium at this point, since you seem to not be able to taper off of your original benzo. This is also recommended by dr. Ashton, if you can not cut off the original one.

 

Sounds like you're experiencing interdose withdrawal xs and those will smooth out on Valium, a while after your cross over or perhaps during. It has a much longer half life and will cover you much longer.

At one point you will have 5 times ( or more) of the Valium you take in, built up in your liver.

It will cover you much longer and you can taper off in small amounts and in different ways as well.

( I use liquid for the cut portion of my dose)

 

I also have severe bouts of IBS. Have always had that but way more so on a short acting benzo than Valium. Now, I only get it when I eat something bad for me. But not due to Valium. That was different on Ativan and acute inter dose Wd symptoms.

 

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Ok, would you then recommend that I completely cross over to the valium at 2mg (was at 3.5/4 mg Temazapam) and take that an hour before sleep and go from there?  Any other thoughts?  Can we also have Smiff chime in as he seems to have dealt with this beast too?

 

I am with you Mom...just concern about leaving the benzo I have been on - that no longer helps me sleep and kills my guts - will the 2 mg of Valium be enough to counter the loss of the Temazapam and hopefully help me sleep?

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