Help with starting liquid taper from Xanax and adding Valium

Hi Guys,

 

Any ideas for this?...I've got all my gear for my liquid taper. My dose is .5mg of Xanax. For last 3 weeks I've just split it in half and taken.25 in morning and .25 at night. Now want to try and taper. however, I also got from my Doc a RX for 2mg of Valium and want to know how to proceed. I cant wait to get off this Xanax crap and am tempted to just take 5mg of Valium at night and then , my .25 of Xanax in the morning , then taper from that. But should I not do that?

 

Is it safe to just drop one dose of xanax, then replace with Valium? or do I have to do the slow taper off Xanax, THEN start adding Valium?  Also, if that is the case, is it ok to add 2mg of valium in addition to my .5 Xanax while I start tapering the xanax? Or should it be one or the other?

 

Thanks guys!!

 

Trying to beat this monster!!! NEVER AGAIN!!

 

 

 

I tapered directly off of Xanax by dry cutting with no Valium substitution, however, if I'd wanted to do a crossover to Valium, I would have completed a crossover prior to making a reduction in my full benzo load.

 

.50mg of Xanax equals 10mgs of Valium according to Ashton.

 

This is what a possible crossover would have looked like if I'd done it in .25mg Xanax substituted with 5mg of Valium steps:

 

  .50mg of Xanax, (starting dose)

1.  .25mg of Xanax + 5mg of Valium, (I'd hold for 10 to 14 days to allow Valium to build up)

2.  10mg of Valium, (I'd hold for 10 to 14 days to allow Valium to build up in replacing my last .25mg of Xanax prior to reducing Valium)

 

So, I'd take approx. 20 to 30 days to totally replace my Xanax with Valium and only after stable on the Valium would I begin to titrate off.  Good luck! 

 

 

Thanks Juliea!

 

So, your advice would be to just jump in and do the switch to Val (for one of the doses) BEFORE starting to taper anything?

Then slowly taper Xanax and add the rest of the Val dose, hold a while, then start to taper from that?

 

So, I don't need to start to taper the xanax first before I add my Val?

 

 

 

A substitution taper is just that --- an amount of the original benzo is replaced with an equivalent amount of another benzo, (in this case .25mg of Xanax is substituted with 5mg of Valium), in steps.  I'd do this in .25mg steps, all the while keeping my full benzo load the same, until the substitution was complete.  After each step was complete, only then would I begin tapering.

 

During the substitution phase, please keep in mind that the body is getting accustomed to the new benzo and 'some' people experience withdrawal symptoms during this phase.

your advice would be to just jump in and do the switch to Val

 

No, my advice is not for all people to just jump in and do a Valium substitution when withdrawing from Xanax.  I usually recommend that the person try tapering their Xanax first.  Ashton has said to people that her clinic cases were 'difficult cases' and this is why the Valium substitution method was developed.  Not everyone tolerates Valium and I've seen people have to switch back to their original benzo and taper.  This costs valuable time, in my opinion.  You came asking for support for the substitution method after having made a decision to substitute with Valium.  This is why my support involved giving you my impression of how to achieve this.

Thanks Juliea

 

Yes, I'm asking and trying to figure out the right way to go. I read that Valium has a longer half life and makes it easier. So, I asked my doc for it. He at first couldn't believe that I was having WD's on such a "small" dose of Xanax and wanted to give me Ativa! But that stuff has a short half life too!! So, I asked for the Valium, but have not taken it yet. I thought I'd rather deal with WD's from something that lasts days, not something that wears off in 6 hours!

 

But hell, I don't know..

 

I just want this to stop!!

 

  I read your history and your taper. Good for you! I hope I can make it too. Maybe I should try to taper Xanax and hold off on the Diazapam. I do understand what you mean about time wasted. I was worried about me switching from my 1mg Xanax dose 4 days a week, to now .5 EVERYDAY for the last 3 weeks...I didn't want to "add" days to it even when it's a lower dose, but people on here seemed to advice me to spread it out and not go cold turkey 3 days a week..So now I've been taking it everyday ( half original dose but..) I never did that before..So, I don't know what method to go with..At least I have cut my dose in half, but now am taking it everyday...I don't know what plan to go with. But I want to start moving forward again.

I was one of those people who did not suffer from interdose withdrawals while taking Xanax.  There have been several of us that I've known here.  I only dosed one time per day, at bedtime and continued to do this for the duration of my taper.

 

We've had people who dosed every other day with Xanax, for years for insomnia.  The people I know who did this continued to dose every other day during their Xanax taper, if they were not suffering interdose withdrawal.

 

This tapering business is so individual.  What works for me may not work for another person.  I would go with my gut level feeling about what to do.  If I was suffering from interdose withdrawal, (this would be between dose withdrawal during the day, not between dose withdrawal caused by missing days of a dose), that I could not alleviate by breaking up my daily dose to multiple times per day, I would definitely consider a transition to Valium.  And by the way, most people here who post on the Valium support thread report that they take their Valium 2-3 times per day to combat interdose withdrawal.  We all just metabolize these benzos differently.

 

Just to let you know, I only cut my Xanax by 1/4 of a .25mg from .5mg to zero.  My taper was manageable and I'm basically recovered from the experience.  Good luck with whatever you decide to do and remember --- we're all different and do listen to your body during this process. 

Thanks so much Juliea,

 

Yes, interdose withdrawal. It's weird. Sometimes I seem to get it, sometimes, i don't! It seems like the more you take  ( or the more frequently I dose, at least for me, the more i get interdose withdrawals. Damn, now I wish I would have just stayed on my 4 day a week plan. I still got WD's but I could last 24 hours..now that I've cut the dose in half but taken it everyday, I get the interdose WD's...but sometimes I can go 15 hours in between, other times less like 10 or 12.

 

It's crazy trying to figure out what to do.

 

I almost feel more messed up now that I take it everyday...however, it has only been 3 weeks. I like your way of .25 every week or 10 days or so..but that may be too fast? I don't know. I just hope I haven't made my problem worse! It seems most people here regulate the dose by spreading it out, so thats what I did. But maybe , for me thats wrong? Maybe it's like "feeding the beast" too much. I don't want to "program" my CNS to expect a dose at a certain time each day.I want it to learn to live without it and not know when it's coming. That's how I did it when I did 1mg 4 days a week , it was just random.

 

But it seems most people here spread the dose out to keep it in the blood more frequently so you don't WD. But for me..maybe I shouldn't? However NOW since it's been 3 weeks of everyday..I'd probably flip if I tried to skip a day!...I don't know. I'm ranting.

 

I wish I had known people who took it every other day, like I used to . And then tapered from that. But I didn't think that was the "right" way to go, so I was told....UGH? Now what?  I just took my .25 dose. 15 hours from last .25...but I didn't feel the "need" too. Should I have not? Just trying to keep the dose "regular" but maybe , if one is not feeling any symptoms, maybe one shouldn't take it?

Hi Juliea,

 

Just looked at my diary, it's actually been 10 days since I skipped a day. The week of ending Jan 19 I had gone 2 days that week without the Xanax. I sort of would do it like you in that, I just took my whole .5mg pill once at night, then would skip the next day, and then take another .5mg the night after that. It was pretty good. Of course, I couldn't have gone longer then say, 24 or 36 hours, but I didn't feel the need to take it every 10-15 like I do now since breaking the .5 in half and going with .25 twice a day.

 

Should I try and go back to my old .5 all at once every other day? and then taper from that? or do you think now, the damage has been done, and I'm stuck with 2x a day everyday?

 

I'm sure you'll say the anyway to know is for me to try and see how my body reacts. It just sucks because, I don't want to make anything worse then it needs to be.

 

I'll say this. I do feel more "doped up" everyday taking it 2x a day then I did when I just did one big dose...

I like your way of .25 every week or 10 days or so..but that may be too fast?

 

That's a quarter of a .25mg, (.0625mg), I dropped every week to 14 days or so.

 

Everyone and I do mean almost everyone advised me to break up my dosing to keep my blood levels even too.  However, I'd only dosed 1X per day for 25-years and this just didn't feel right to me, so I didn't do it.  My bedtime varied so much during my taper and always had, really.  Sometimes I'd go to bed at 9 PM and sometimes 4 AM.  I never adjusted my bedtime dosing for the duration of withdrawal and never suffered interdose withdrawal.  I never felt the 'need' to take Xanax even with my wonky dosing schedule.  It was a means to and end for me for sleep.

 

However, when I started tapering I noticed I got hit with a Xanax cut, on the 4th or 5th day after I made the cut.  One would think with the short half life of Xanax that I would have felt my cut sooner than this time period.  But this was the case for most of us dry cutting on the Xanax thread, during my taper.  We'd cut and then days later, (this varied a bit from person-to-person, but it took all of us several days) --- feel the increased symptoms from the cut.

 

Since you've changed your dosing now for three weeks, this in my opinion is enough time for your body to fuss if you were to change back.  If I were you, I'd perhaps try a .0625mg taper, (a quarter of one of your doses), and wait a few days and see what happens.  You just might be able to taper off the Xanax without a substitution.

 

There is another variable in this equation related to the fact that your 'as-needed' dosing was regularly 1mg.  I'm guessing that even though you only took this 1mg 'as-needed', that your body was dependent upon this 1mg dose.  So, your body could be interpreting the .5mg dose that you are taking now, as a very large reduction and is kicking up a storm.  It may take a bit of time for this storm to pass.  This might be what you're feeling.  Taking a benzo 'as-needed' at a certain dose, and then attempting to calculate half-lives to come up with what the dose should be when taken regularly, does not always work, (if this is what you did to come up with the .5mg dose you're on now).  If your body was dependent upon 1mg, (even though you didn't take this same 1mg every day), when you cut to .5mg every day, your body might have interpreted this as a 50% reduction, which would send most of us into acute withdrawal.  I think you're doing very well, considering.

 

Even though I never felt like I 'needed' my dose, if I had cut it --- this wouldn't have been good for me and would have brought on acute symptoms.  I do believe that regular daily dosing during a benzo withdrawal is important for those of us for whom our bodies are accustomed to this regular dosing. 

 

Everything I've just said to you is my opinion and thinking out loud to try to figure out what might be going on with you.  I'm of course not a doctor and not even an expert --- only a fellow traveler on this road to benzo freedom.

 

Edit:  I see you've just posted.  Sometimes when we set a new pattern with a benzo, that new pattern sticks, (your relatively new dosing schedule).  As far as your new dosing schedule and changing it back to your old dosing schedule, all you can do is try and see what happens.  Since interdose withdrawal is the thing that you were trying to alleviate, then you should know rather quickly if going back to dosing 1X per day is going to work for you again. 

 

 

 

   

Juliea

 

Wow! Thanks so much for all the great info! Great post!

 

Yeah, sounds like your sleeping schedule is just like mine. I'm a musician and sometimes I go to sleep at 8pm or 9 and others 6am or 11am! Very random.  And that's when I would take my 1MG. Sometimes I would just sleep for 4 hours, wake up, not be able to go back to sleep, then do a few things, eat, then take my 1mg, to get back to sleep. Then go on with the night..Recording etc..next day feel fine but then another day, do the same pattern.

 

Yes, I see what you mean about the body feeling like my dose was cut in half. It's true, I did feel pretty proud (and very lucky and grateful too!) that (so far) I have cut my dose in half and not totally lost it! So, far, 3 weeks in so good...It is a 50% reduction..and I'm holding steady.. I think that was because of the fact that I didn't take it every single day...And it was only about 6 or 8 months 1mg 4 days a week...before that only .5 and only once a week or so. Never as a sleep aid etc... I think that's maybe why I've been pretty ok so far.

 

Yes, .0625 dose, a quarter of my .25 I'd like to try that. I did try halfing the .25 to .12.21/2 or whatever it is and I flipped out!! I've tried that twice this week and it didn't work. It sucks because, I've got a bad cutter ( that's why I want to go with the liquid) so for all I know, I cut way too much...How did you shave off such small cuts?

 

maybe I'll just try and go for it tomorrow and take the whole .5 and see if I can skip a day? and then start tapering from the whole .5 take once ( when about to sleep).. Your right maybe I don't need to get into the Diazapam yet...if at all.

 

One last thing..Did you drink during your taper? I'm only talking like, a glass or two of red wine spread out, with food. I know they say don't but..it seems to me Dr.s give people Xanax to get off of Booze, so, why can't we use booze to get off Xanax?

 

I know people say it's both GABA but isn't Benzos affecting GABA A and Booze affecting GABA B?  Because before I realized I needed to quit the Benzos, I would be having WD's and be on my 4th beer and still feeling the Benzo WD! But I didn't know that's what it was then! I just thought I was going crazy! Nope. It was Benzo WD..and the drink didn't really mask it..or maybe it would have been even worse had I had not had the drink? I don't know...

 

Anyway, have only had a glass or two of wine during all this..Don't want to push it..

 

I tried some Benadrly too.( not with wine) but made me VERY sleepy for first hour then felt awake and great . No WD affects for like 4 hours...that's when I then tried to take my 0.12 ( half cut of .25) and FLIPPED out! Panicked!Worst time in whole 3 weeks! But maybe I cut the dose too much....

Thanks Juliea!

 

Just want to thank you again for your posts.

 

You've brightened my day and given me hope!

 

I think maybe I can beat this monster after all...

 

Thank you.

You can beat this monster, for sure!  If I did after 25-years on the junk, anyone can.  I don't know exactly how you'll do it, but I feel certain that if you make up your mind to 'do it', you'll get it done. 

 

I used a drugstore pill cutter to get the 1/4 of the tablet cut.  I snapped the pill in half at the score line and then cut the 1/2 tablet in half with the pill cutter.  When I first started cutting, I didn't snap the cutter crisply enough and got some uneven cuts and powder.  I learned that if I snapped the cutter, like I meant it, this helped make the cuts more even.  I usually eyeballed the quarter pieces of pills and lined them up from large to smaller.  I took the larger sized quarter pieces at the beginning of a hold period and the smaller sized pieces of pills towards the end of the hold period.

 

I always waited to feel increased symptoms when I cut, (usually on either the 4th or 5th day for me), and then waited until the symptoms settled back down prior to making another cut.  Waiting for the symptoms to settle back down is called 'stabilization' --- it's important to stabilize between cuts when dry cutting.

 

I don't know if I'd go as far as skipping a day now that you've been dosing daily for a number of weeks.  I believe what I would strive to do is taper off rather than skip days at this stage, but of course you could certainly give this a try.  I'd just hate to see you lose stability, because for some people when they lose the ability to stabilize, this can be difficult to bounce back from.  This also can lead to up dosing, (something that I didn't do and I'm not a big fan of).

 

It's worth a shot to try to taper the Xanax, in my opinion.  But the good news is that you have the Valium ready if the Xanax taper becomes something that you find unmanageable.

 

I chose to forgo alcohol during my taper, just in case it caused me problems.  Professor Ashton says that an occasional glass of wine is ok, but I didn't want to risk it because Xanax withdrawal already felt like a hangover to me.  Some members can tolerate alcohol and some can't and consuming alcohol causes these members increased benzo withdrawal symptoms.  I can drink socially now, with no problems, though.

 

I wish you well in your taper and hope that you'll continue to post for support during the process.  You can do this! 

Hi Juliea

 

Thank you again for another great post. Yes, so far I've been using a drug store pill cutter too and I have the same problem , the cuts are not perfect and one is larger then the other and I usually take the smaller pill in the day and the larger at night. Right now, is very soon going to be my bedtime, and then I'll wake up around 9pm or 10pm tonight (day sleeper) then the daily dreaded question begins...

 

What do I do tonight? How do I feel ? etc..Do I try and start the taper? Do I just "hold" and not switch? Do I try the Valium? Or do I just try and cold turkey (and count the hours down until 24 of them pass) and then give in?

 

I hate it. It's a daily struggle. All I know is, I want it over. And I feel like it's worse now (trying to kick and halfing my dose the past 3 weeks) then it was when I was going full on before. Maybe it's just that we become "aware" that were going through WD's?

 

I don't know. Because, last month (before I started this) I felt more "violent" WD's. Brain Zaps. Fear. Etc. I STILL didn't think it was Xanax. So, I sort of paid it no mind. It felt uncomfortable, but I could go a day or so and it sort of went away. Then, I would dose and the pattern would repeat. However, I did feel "clear" in between doses.

 

Now I don't. I just feel "drugged" all the time. Even though it's half the dose I was taking for the past 6 months, now I NEVER feel clear. It was almost better before, if you know what I mean...

 

But maybe it's because, I'm "healing" or "adjusting" and that's the way it is. I don't know... I want to cut down but I don't want the WD's. And I'm getting WD's now...

 

Could it be that your body gets used to the dose and develops a tolerance? How are we to combat that?  I think my body's getting used to my .25 2 x a day and now wants more?..But I want to give it less.

 

Do we just go and try? And if it's rough , just "hold"?

Juliea and all BB's..

 

Just a little update..last night took my whole .5 dose (had been breaking it in half .25 Morn and .25 at night for last 11 days) but felt "drugged" all the time and also started to get some interdose WD's, So, went back to once daily dose. So far , so good. Went about my day and had a semi "normal" day,no WD's...then slept (about 5 hours, good) and woke up and noticed it's been 23 and 1/2 hours since last dose.

 

Then started getting some mild WD's (2-3 on a scale of 1-10, not bad, but they were starting) so, I decided to take the whole.5 dose again, however, this time I started my Liquid taper. I at first used a pill grinder but , it was a mess, the grinder kept too much powder in it's grooves ( it's screw grinder) and I felt too much would have been lost. So, I skipped that and took out another .5mg pill but this time just dropped it right into the 100ml glass cylinder and filled it with water and , it started to dissolve on it's own right away! Then I took out a chop stick and mixed it and mashed the rest, then filled it up to the 100 ML top line with water ( I didn't use milk) and drank it down. I filled it back up again and drank that too ( to catch the residue). I didn't want to start taking any out just yet because I read that the first few times, you'll lose some of the drug powder any way, so in a way that's your "first" cut...

 

But soon will try and take a little out each day and see how it goes. I was surprised. It couldn't have been easier.

 

Now I just hope my taking of .5mg ONCE a day , instead of breaking it up will continue to hold. I know most people say to break it up, but for me, it was weird. I got the interdose WD's. and felt drugged day and night. Since my original dose was always 1MG and only once a day and only 4 days a week, I felt weird taking it every single day, even when at half the original dose.

 

But who knows? I just hope I can hold , taking it only once a day (like I used to) and then do my liquid taper from that.

 

I still have my 2.mg Valium but have not tried it yet...I think I'm going to stick with this plan , if I can for a while...

 

But who knows?  So, far , so good!...

 

Wish me luck guys!

 

Let's beat this!!

 

 

Wow, this is encouraging news.  Yes, most who titrate Xanax use water.  Xanax is not fat soluble, so milk is not advantageous to use.  I'd make certain that when I did begin drawing out a reduction that I worked very quickly.  This will help accuracy. 

Juliea,

 

When you say "work real quickly" you mean when you start to draw out the liquid? Like when you remove a drop here and there, is that what you mean, to do that quickly? Also, how do we avoid all of the pill dust staying at the bottom? Do we just mix it fast and then remove our amount for the day? I just don't want to be removing the water at the top only, while the full dissolved pill stays at the bottom! Any tips?

 

Juliea,

 

When you say "work real quickly" you mean when you start to draw out the liquid? Like when you remove a drop here and there, is that what you mean, to do that quickly? Also, how do we avoid all of the pill dust staying at the bottom? Do we just mix it fast and then remove our amount for the day? I just don't want to be removing the water at the top only, while the full dissolved pill stays at the bottom! Any tips?

I did not water titrate because Xanax is not water soluble, nor is it soluble in milk.  I was concerned about even cuts.  But several people on the Xanax thread do water titrate successfully.  What I mean by working fast is this:  after the Xanax is well dispersed in the water, (it disperses, it does not dissolve), the person titrating must remove their dose reduction RAPIDLY/QUICKLY.  What I've seen recommended is to shake or stir, (like mad, lol), and then instantaneously remove the required reduction, very quickly.

 

When I saw all those particles float to the bottom of the glass, pretty immediately, I said no, no, I can't titrate Xanax, this would drive me nuts wondering if I got an even reduction every day.  Plus, my left hand trembled during my taper and I was concerned about spills. 

 

You might ask for some tips on the Xanax thread in our Support Group section.  I will get you the link.

Here is the Xanax thread:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=96799.2360 

 

 

Thanks Juliea!

 

That's interesting. I wish I could just cut it..but it seems to cut so un evenly. I do slam it down hard and all, but even when I line it up, with the pre cut some half's look larger then the others.

 

So, I tried the liquid. It was easy. But, I see what you mean, can one get the right amount removed? I guess, I'll just spin it fast and tip it a bit, before I draw it out...

 

 

Or maybe I'll just go back to working on my cutting skills! I would rather just cut,,,but I seems uneven...and getting so down to tiny cuts may be tough...

Juliea and BB's

 

Well, here's an update on my "experiment" of going back to a once nightly dose of .5 instead of breaking it up and spreading it out with .25 , twice a day. As I had been doing for the past 11 days. It worked once two days ago the first time so I tried it again last night, and did it with the Liquid Cylinder (but didn't remove any yet)

 

NOPE! Didn't work!  It lasted about 12 1/2 hours and then , PANIC! Wham! Not good.

 

So, I didn't know what else to do ( I couldn't finish my "experiment" and wait another 12 hours to does again, to make it a full 24). So, I up-dosed another .25 about a half hour ago and now feel better.

 

I hate up-doseing. I dont want to do it, but still, at least it's not my old regular dose of 1MG. It sucks, but I thought I had three choices-

 

1.) Try a Benadrly and see if that would stop the WD's or

2.)Try to make my first "switch" with Valium and see how that goes or

3.) just take the "old reliable" XANAX, but at .25mg

 

The first two choices seemed too risky in my moment of "panic" and WD's. So, I just took the damn .25mg..

 

And just cut it too, no liquid this time.

 

So, I guess it's back to the drawing board! Looks like since, I've been on .25 2 x a day for the last 12 days, I'm hooked.

I guess, I can still do the liquid method, but I'll need to dose 2 x a day.. Just once wont work now for me. Even though when I was originally using , once every other day, I only dosed 1 time, now, I can't. Oh, well...

 

Plus, last night, when I was on the full .5 dose all at once, it didn't totaly take away the WD's. It was OK, and on a one to 10 anxiety scale it was about a 1, not bad, but slill there a bit. It's not like it all when away because I took more. And then 12 hours later CRASH!

 

So, todays shot. I'll try and go back to .25 2 x a day tomorrow....

 

 

Yep, I was concerned that two weeks was plenty of time for a body to get accustomed to a pattern of dosing 2x per day.  Heck, in two weeks some poor souls get dependent upon Xanax, it has known to be that quick for some.

 

Good luck with all of this.  I know it's a difficult decision.  I don't think Benadryl is going to do much except probably make a person a bit drowsy.  When a benzo is already involved and the anxiety is chemically induced from the Benzo, I just can't see Benadryl cutting through that.  I could be wrong though.  Good luck!

Juliea,

 

Yes, you were right , 2 weeks in , I'm hooked on 2 x a day..Half the original dose, but, still hooked on the "new" pattern....

 

One last thing, If I were to dry cut my. 25 twice a day, and I wanted to do a .625 reduction each week or so. I should cut one .25 pill at .312 ( a quarter) of EACH .25 pill right?

 

Because, maybe I'll dry cut a while and then do the liquid later on...

To make a .0625mg reduction, I would only cut a quarter off of 1 of my doses.  Most people cut 1 dose in one taper period and the next dose the next taper period, alternating each dose being cut from a one-two week period to the other.

Hi Juliea

 

 

Ok, so maybe that's the way to go. It would be easier. I was just concerned because last week I tried cutting half of one of my .25 to .12ish. and I flipped out . So, I think .625 would be better but thought it best to spread that out too. .312 and .312. But maybe not? I guess, I'll try it.

 

 

Sucks because, I just took my .25 about 3 hours ago (now making a total of .75 in almost 24 hours, regularly is .5) and STILL feeling some WD's!!!

 

I don't want to feed it MORE! I've already blown it for the day as it is!

 

This is why I think about the Valium..

 

I just can't keep having WD's every few hours, even WHILE STILL taking this junk!

 

Going to eat soon, then try and sleep ,got to go another 8 hours for my 24 hour first dose to be over. But if I can't make it , I'm thinking about trying my first .2 Valium. I know a substitute .25 Xanax dose is .2.5 Valium..but it's bad enough, I've already done .75 of Xanax today. I don't want to keep feeding this monster!

 

Any thoughts?