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Hi,

 

I put a detailed description in my signature as to my current predicament.  I'm very happy to have found this group and happy and annoyed at the info I've found here.  I had NO CLUE this would ever be an issue!  I think instinctually I had felt I needed off these, as I was feeling off.  I went off SSRIs in July (no problem).  This was the only remaining culprit.  So I stopped taking them.  Does anyone have any ideas or recognize this pattern on trying to find my "stable" dose to even begin a taper process.  I'm struggling with acceptance that this is going to take more than a minute to get off but as one of you wonderful people have said, that even while coming off I am healing from them as I go.  So its a mental struggle that I have to keep taking them until I'm "done". 

 

My biggest issues are insomnia, hypervigilance, crying, worry, frustration, anger, sadness, feel like I've wasted my life, appetite disturbance, don't want to leave the house, don't want to stay at the house, my house is bothering me, my house is wonderful, the world is scary, I'm afraid, I'm letting everyone down, etc etc etc

 

Again, advice on what exactly is stable very much appreciated.

 

Thank you.

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Hi StingRae,

 

I'm so sorry to hear of your predicament. When I found out what was happening to me I was deathly ill due to too rapid withdrawal.

 

You seem to have some knowledge concerning Benzodiazepines. Yes, it's going to take more than a minute (sadly).

 

If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading the Ashton Manual. That said, there are some developments in 2022 then when the manual was published somewhere in 2001, I believe. Some people argue that if you can, tapering your original Benzo might be easier than converting to Diazepam. Nevertheless, it is an option worth considering. There is at least concensus that a slow taper is recommended, with a maximum of 10% of the current dose.

 

What I gather from your signature your current total dose a day is 1 milligram of Clonazepam. This equals 20 milligrams of Diazepam (Valium).

Last April, you maximum daily dose was up to 3 milligrams of Clonazpam. This equals 60 milligrams of Diazepam (Valium).

In terms of pace going from 3 milligrams of Clonazepam to 1 milligram in 5 months is quite a reduction.

 

My advice would be to consider a crossover to Diazepam. This will most likely be extremely difficult, but if you succeed it will pose less symptoms in the long run. Mind you, the crossover itself could take months. If you choose to taper Clonazepam, wait till your symptoms are tolerable. Then, try a monthly reduction of 10% maximum.

 

Best of luck,

Naf1983

 

 

All the things you are decribing are common in Benzodiazepine withdrawal. However the symptoms may be less severe if you taper slowly.

 

Hi,

 

I put a detailed description in my signature as to my current predicament.  I'm very happy to have found this group and happy and annoyed at the info I've found here.  I had NO CLUE this would ever be an issue!  I think instinctually I had felt I needed off these, as I was feeling off.  I went off SSRIs in July (no problem).  This was the only remaining culprit.  So I stopped taking them.  Does anyone have any ideas or recognize this pattern on trying to find my "stable" dose to even begin a taper process.  I'm struggling with acceptance that this is going to take more than a minute to get off but as one of you wonderful people have said, that even while coming off I am healing from them as I go.  So its a mental struggle that I have to keep taking them until I'm "done". 

 

My biggest issues are insomnia, hypervigilance, crying, worry, frustration, anger, sadness, feel like I've wasted my life, appetite disturbance, don't want to leave the house, don't want to stay at the house, my house is bothering me, my house is wonderful, the world is scary, I'm afraid, I'm letting everyone down, etc etc etc

 

Again, advice on what exactly is stable very much appreciated.

 

Thank you.

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Hi Naf,

 

I've been lurking here for a while and what I know comes from here and associated links.  I'd like to be able to get out of my head and kind of observe this objectively, but that seems to be really difficult with the symptoms. 

 

I would like to avoid a crossover and stick with the devil I know. 

 

I'm just curious on what is the definition of "stable".  I would assume there will be good days and bad days, especially after a cut but I'm finding it difficult to find the appropriate level of "stable" or unstable in order to have a more orderly taper.

 

Thanks so much for your reply.  It is greatly appreciated.

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We define stable as functional - you can do the tasks expected of you, work (if you're working), take care of yourself and your family,  do your daily tasks etc. It doesn't mean feeling well or good but being able to perform what needs to be done.

 

I agree with your decision not to do a crossover. When I look at your signature the thing that immediately strikes me is your doses are all over the place. And I say that respectfully and not in a nasty way. I know you are used to taking your meds as needed and not consistently but when you taper you have to take the same dose consistently at the same time. Your blood serum levels should remain level. My suspicion is this might be contributing to your struggles.

 

I think we need to determine a starting dose for you to take regularly. How do you feel about that?

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Hi Jelly,

 

Yes!  That's exactly my question.  I've been stumbling around trying to figure out where I'm "slightly" uncomfortable.  I increased today to .25 4x a day evenly spaced to hold here and so far the ear ringing is less, I'm weepy but not overly agitated. 

 

Thank you for any suggestions.

 

 

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Great! We're moving in the same direction. Now to get the right dose.  What would you say your normal/average dose was over the last 6-12 months? And how many times a day would you dose?
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BTW, in asking these questions I'm not saying your latest attempt is wrong,  I just don't want to jump in with random guessing. I would rather try to make an informed choice based on your history especially the number of times you're dosing a day as this could affect your taper in the future.
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That's the difficult thing to know for sure!  I used it maybe 2-3 times a week for sleeping.  A few times a month for anxiety, which I think I started to then feel like hey this stuff is making me worse.  That is why I just don't know where I "should" be.  My last refill of 1 mg 3x a day was in May and still have 3/4 bottle remaining.  That should have been gone at the end of August if I was taking anywhere near that dose.  That being said, the prior months did not go unused... Hmmm.  I believe after I stopped taking my SSRI in July I started to severely limit my use of the Clonazapam trying to figure out why I was feeling so "off" yet always told I have depression, anxiety, PTSD, Panic Disorder.  Looing back I believe I was in tolerance withdrawal.  And somehow knew that not in a logical manner, just felt it.  Jitters came on, I'd take it because that's my underlying condition. 
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I think 1mg might be a good starting dose but I don't necessarily think taking it 4 times a day will benefit you. We usually take multiple doses to combat interdose withdrawal. It means the dose stops working after a couple of hours and the body starts craving it before the next dose is due.The fact that you were able to only take it 2-3 times a week suggests to me you don't have interdose withdrawal.

 

If you take 4 doses and you start tapering you usually need to keep these somewhat level as well and that can be a pain in the butt if you don't have to do it. I would suggest you take 2 doses or at most 3 doses per day and start at 1mg. What's your thoughts on this?

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Today is day 1 of .25 4x a day.  As of right now with a little over an hour until my next dose I feel STABLE.  This time yesterday I was a mess. I wanted to stay here for a couple/few days and then make a move.  I understand what you are saying about 2-3 times a day.  I think I'd feel better doing 3x a day.  If I continue to do well on .25 4x a day, would you say drop one of the .25 and go to 3x a day or move the entire 1mg to 3x a day first?  Oh I've been reading on how to make dry doses and am prepared to go through the making of dry tapers.  I am in process of getting appt. with my doctor which will probably take 2-3 weeks to get in so I have time to come up with a solid plan.

 

However...  She will be a new Dr. to me, as my prescribing Doctor recently retired.  She has my records (took over his practice).  I am a little nervous on how she will be so idk whether to tell her exactly my current dose in case she wants to do the rapid taper.  It feels so awful to be anything but honest with your Dr. but this might be an exception.  You need them until you get off. 

 

Thanks again.  This is a wonderful community. 

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Today is day 1 of .25 4x a day.  As of right now with a little over an hour until my next dose I feel STABLE.  This time yesterday I was a mess. I wanted to stay here for a couple/few days and then make a move.  I understand what you are saying about 2-3 times a day.  I think I'd feel better doing 3x a day.  If I continue to do well on .25 4x a day, would you say drop one of the .25 and go to 3x a day or move the entire 1mg to 3x a day first?  Oh I've been reading on how to make dry doses and am prepared to go through the making of dry tapers.  I am in process of getting appt. with my doctor which will probably take 2-3 weeks to get in so I have time to come up with a solid plan.

 

However...  She will be a new Dr. to me, as my prescribing Doctor recently retired.  She has my records (took over his practice).  I am a little nervous on how she will be so idk whether to tell her exactly my current dose in case she wants to do the rapid taper.  It feels so awful to be anything but honest with your Dr. but this might be an exception.  You need them until you get off. 

 

Thanks again.  This is a wonderful community.

 

Usually with the long half-life of Clonazepam you feel the effects from a change within  3-5 days. So your current situation might be the result of previous doses. That said when I updosed after being bedridden for a couple of days I felt a difference within 12 hours. I just want us to keep in mind it might be a delayed reaction to a previous dose. If you feel comfortable with what you're doing now and you want to stick with it I understand and support you. You know your body best.

 

I know the doctor situation is tough. I'm biased because I was cut off by the pain specialist who originally prescribed these, so my knee-jerk reaction is to not say anything just collect as much pills as you can. But not everyone is me, and you have to do what you see fit in the situation. The new doctor I got is lovely and supportive and she won't cut me off, so not all doctors are like that. Maybe your new doctor will also be great. Fingers crossed.

 

 

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Hi Jelly,

 

What is DMT to refer to in your signature?  Do you think it helped?

 

Rae

 

It stands for daily micro tapering. It means I make very small cuts instead of cut and hold. I've tried lots of various methods and even did cut and hold in-between the DMT.  What I like about cut and hold is it helped me to determine my taper percentage. I knew what I could tolerate, when symptoms would kick in and when I would recover. That's difficult with a DMT. A DMT is more gradual slow reductions so you don't have a strong onset of symptoms with a recovery period, then feeling semi-normal. You just feel "meh" all the time.  It's kind of you're constantly in the recovery phase of a cut and hold, without fully recovering from the cut. (If you do the DMT correctly). If your percentages become too much it can slowly catch up with you and you can hit a wall.

 

I found it easier to manage my symptoms with a DMT as I needed to work and the cuts after a cut and hold was just too difficult for me. I was also struggling to shave my pills. I just couldn't do it. So yeah, I needed another way of tapering and it worked for me.

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I didn't put that together but I read and went to the site one man from here has made demonstrating how he does it.  Makes his doses up for the month.  I really like that idea. 
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Jelly,

 

I think Bob7 cuts .001 each day.  You said you did that for a while.  What is the difference in doing it that way all the way down as opposed to it looks like you make .015 cuts and hold for a couple of weeks?  Why did you change and what is the difference in the way you feel?  Is it simply because it is much more difficult as the doses get lower?  I have such a long way to go and I admire so many of you all here.  I really want to get this right.

 

Thanks,

 

Rae

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You may tolerate a linear taper, StingRae. I have not been able to. At least not yet. Bob did his once he was down to .125 mg, and he never took as much as we did. A percent-based taper is recommended for the sensitive crowd in order to give the body time to adjust to lower and lower doses. I'm currently cutting daily (DMT) at the equivalent of 9% / 14 days. That's a bit faster than the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition (BIC) recommends (no more than 10% per month), but inline with Ashton's and Benzo Buddies' recommendations. I agree that the DMT is a constant meh feeling. For me it's an intense meh, but I didn't really feel great through my cuts and holds in the beginning either. I've had symptoms all the way down. I'm at .212 mg K today down from .875 mg last September.
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Rae

 

Hereforhelp is right. Bob7 only started his linear taper at 0.125mg. I never tapered linear until I got there either. I only used Bob's method of filling capsules but I tapered percentages. I always tapered percentages until it got too low. It's really important to stick to percentages in the higher numbers. If you go linear i.e taper 0.05mg per day/week, the percentages of those cuts will increase with each cut and over time you'll inevitably run into big problems.

 

Even now in the lower numbers I cannot sustain 0.001mg per day. It's too much. I need to hold in-between.

 

I hope this makes sense.

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Jelly and HeretoHelp,

 

IF I stabilize on my current .25 x 4 per day dosing (yesterday was better than today and I just don't understand why!) What would be the logical next reduction in dose?  (Sorry I'm not thinking properly today, I've been a little obsessive with "What do I do NEXT?" thoughts.  I want to be prepared.  When will I need a scale?  Am I capable of doing this correctly?  Worry worry worry about every single thing!  There are things I haven't thought about in years coming up and I'm worried about THAT!  I feel bad for being a "whiner" and complainer.  My external self is a happy smiling helpful face, but I so do not feel like that. 

 

Thank you.

 

 

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Why were yesterday better than today? I'm suspecting it has something to do with a previous dosing schedule not yesterday's. Remember I told you about the long half-life of Clonazepam? I'm still in two minds about the 4x times dosing. Anyway I'm going off topic.

 

I would probably suggest starting to taper at 7.5%. I always suggest the middle of the range to start with. You'll probably need a scale the day you start tapering.

 

Of course you'll get this right. Gosh if I can do it, anybody can!  :laugh:

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The obsessive, ruminating, worried thoughts are normal in withdrawal. They make us absolutely crazy, but they're normal. I would agree with jelly baby that starting in the middle of the road is a good plan. If it goes well, you can increase your rate; if it doesn't go so well, you can decrease your rate. A DMT often is smoother and less of a bumpy ride, but some people prefer the cut and hold, especially if their symptoms are only heavy for a few days doing it. They can use that to their advantage and plan around it. That did not happen for me. I had symptoms every day; they would just get stronger after a week or so from the cut.
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Hello,

 

I ordered the scale, and other supplies.  Got the GEM. 

 

My main symptoms are ears ringing, varying emotions, confusion (thats kinda been the norm tho to be honest), worry, oh and something new.  I'm finding myself wanting to clean things.  Get rid of things.  I became officially empty nest a month ago so maybe I'm just facing life. 

 

Given the way things have been going, and stabbing around at "what is my stable dose", if this next few days go well, I'm considering going from .25 4x a day to x25 3x a day.  After that I'd be overjoyed to be able to then go to x25 2x a day and THEN, begin a modified DMT (cut and hold)? 

 

Opinions appreciated.  I am aware that man plans, God laughs.

 

Many thanks,

 

Rae

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