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Weighing up the pros and cons... (warning: negative post)


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I am not 100% convinced I am going to be able to quit this drug.

 

Based on almost 30 months of slow tapering, I have suffered from the very beginning, in no way did going super slow afford me an even vaguely normal life, by month 5 into my taper I was bedridden and had chronic fatigue where I could barely even bath and dress without feeling absolutely wiped out.

 

I have healed some but here I am, stuck at 2.9 mg Valium equivalent and I can't seem to get lower without experiencing bad anxiety now that almost borders on terror.

 

Cutting faster would induce symptoms that are just intolerable such as facial tics and panic attacks... yet going super slow is taking me years also...

 

I don't know, after 22 years on this drug, I may have to face up to the fact that I may be better off back on than off.

 

I feel sometimes that this taper is slowly killing me... or at least is gradually wrecking my health.

 

They talk of benzo's wrecking health but I was OK on them for all those years, it appears getting off seems to be ruining my health.

 

I don't know anymore... I just see some that wind up with POTS, Hashimoto's and Graves and I can't help but wonder if I am just heading for a complete health crisis attempting this...

 

I have been at this 2.5 years now and I am still basically unable to exercise... it's just ridiculous.

 

I have cut out tea, coffee, sugar, MSG, absolutely ALL processed foods and alcohol since 2 years ago (I have been alcohol free 3 years come the end of this month) and I eat as healthily as possible but avoid detoxing foods such as cruciferous vegetables (which can't be healthy long term).

 

All I drink since 2 years ago is bottled water 4 litres per day (yes, a lot).

 

My adrenals feel shot to bits still... I have tinnitus and the worst anxiety with pretty much every reduction now and I sort of disappear into a surreal state where I can barely function because I get so full of fear... can't think properly and it is just exhausting, mentally, physically and spiritually.

 

Even now, after all those months of tapering down, I can still feel so bad that I cannot tolerate the TV... and I thought when I started this, it may take a year, then that turned into 2 years and now it looks like it is going to last a whole lot longer.

 

It just seems like this is never ending to me now.

 

What concerns me now are the actual health implications getting off this drug... I feel as if this taper has failed in some way, yet even if I "stabilize", I will have to keep going through this for many, many more months and due to the sheer amount of years on the drug, it is highly probable I will end up protracted if I got off sooner.

 

I see people struggling terribly at below 1 mg for crying out loud... and I am on 2.9 mg, it's not exactly encouraging to read of others still feeling bad at such a small dose.

 

I am not sitting here freaking out, I am just trying to rationally think of the health implications trying to get off this drug now... I am sure in some cases it is a case of better stay on than be off.

 

My life is passing me by now and I can see this going on for a very, very long time... some may say to speed this up but the level of suffering I feel is intolerable...

 

I will continue to taper in 2014 but I am no longer convinced I can stick at this for much longer, the sheer duration of this has got to have a very negative impact on the body... and then what? Where is recovery then?

 

Acute withdrawal for 3 months would be bad enough, yet some have it far longer than that and I do not think for one minute that I would make it if I tried... if I think of jumping off at this dose or even rapid tapering off, I feel I would need to be in hospital... or some psych ward... and to me that just seems extreme to get off 3 freaking mgs of Valium.

 

I think, even my ex whom I live with would admit this is not working after another year... I am still at this but I am no longer holding out much hope of beating this, i will try and get my fight back on but I seriously need to turn a corner and soon because life is too short to spend years and years in misery...

 

This is not living, it is existing from day to day trying not to tip into acute withdrawals... it should be better by now... but it's actually not, not if I am being honest... healing has happened but that disappears with every reduction... which just makes me think I'll be in this for a long, long time post taper, even if I ever got there.

 

I'm not sure it's worth it anymore... I am not giving up on my dream yet but I have to confess, I have serious doubts now as to whether this is doable or even if I want it anymore.

 

 

 

 

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22 years on may be the reason why I am having such a hard time at this point... reversing half a life time of being on a drug may just be pretty much impossible... I am afraid that een if I got off, I could draw a short straw and be ill for years with complications as a result of withdrawal and that makes me wonder if I am doing the right thing now...

 

It sure isn't much of a life.  :(

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I see you're going through it again...

last time I saw you posting like this, it lasted 4 or 5 days, then you got all better  ;)

your sig's not showing, so how much have you tapered since the last time, about 3 weeks ago or so? and, how long have you been low so far this time?

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I see you're going through it again...

last time I saw you posting like this, it lasted 4 or 5 days, then you got all better  ;)

your sig's not showing, so how much have you tapered since the last time, about 3 weeks ago or so? and, how long have you been low so far this time?

 

I am not in a wave benzy... not fully stable yet... today is day 17 of holding... so not too long.

 

Hopefully I will get stable enough to feel that life is OK for a few days, I am certainly in no hurry any more... I think maybe I NEED a long hold... maybe even 5 or 6 weeks.

 

I know sometimes when there seems no way forward that a LONG hold can help... I think River Wolf did this...

 

I just feel I am running on an empty tank right now... energy is low again and I feel drained... and it is so annoying, I try and do everything to maintain wellness... my diet is insanely healthy...

 

I'll keep on trekking but I'll admit, if there is not much change within the coming year, I am no longer going to have the will to carry on... I just won't, I know that sounds horribly negative but if a slow taper heals, I NEED some of that this year and preferably before summer... but I am starting to actually think that this does NOT get much better until off for some... I have tapered slow enough to get my "reward" by 2 mgs but if that does not happen, I just won't have the will to do this anymore... I am tired of this now.

 

 

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I would go faster at this point just to get this done but I literally do not feel physically well enough to withstand it... I would be seriously ill, so that is not even an option at present.

 

Let's see if I get stable... been here before, I should remind myself that... I just thought it would start being a little easier by now... not so far for this turtle.

 

:-\

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I would be seriously ill, so that is not even an option at present.

 

I think it's not an option because you refuse to put it on the table. You don't actually know whether you'd be seriously ill, or not -- we've certainly had a good number of posters come through here who were in a toxic relationship with the drug and only improved after they got all the way off.

 

I'm not saying that will happen to you, nor am I telling you to go faster -- I'm just pointing out that you're using a lot of very negative, worst-case scenario, self-fulfilling prophecies in the thinking you express here.

 

When I was at 3mg of V, I literally couldn't imagine ever being off it. It's now eight months off my last dose, and it's becoming harder and harder to imagine ever taking a benzo again for any reason.

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Oscar… I have 31 years of benzo prescriptions behind me … it was miserable tapering off.  But at 20 months benzo free I have a new lease on life… I've gotten a Newfoundland puppy and two kittens, my grandkids are coming over again and I'm taking them places, volunteering at my granddaughter's kindergarten class … and not dependent on any medication. 

 

The rest of your life is ahead of you… do this… it's worth the hell of getting off. 

 

Challis  :mybuddy:

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My point here though is that I have been doing this for almost 30 months already... and what I was NOT bargaining for was to expect to still feel I had a long, long time ahead of me to get off this crap, i mean, if I were healing more by 2 mgs then fair enough but it will be a nightmare getting there...

 

It is like tapering has not really made much difference to what lies ahead... and when I see some at way under 1 mg struggling, i just think I can't do this for the next God knows how long...

 

I am starting to wonder why I am even wasting my time tapering slow now... but I know it will be absolute hell any other way.

 

The cruel thing about this is even getting to 0.5 mg and jumping, it would be awful... if it were that easy, nobody would waste months tapering to zero.

 

It's like, after all this time, getting free of this drug seems ever more impossible... I mean, as we get lower cuts have to become bigger or we would never get free...

 

I would cut faster but I do not fancy years of hot and cold flashes, panic attacks, skin burning and acute anxiety.

 

I can't see me doing this but I'll keep on trying.

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You need some perspective.

 

Sure there are a few folks taki ng months to get off sub milligram doses, but there are even more who get off high doses (like me) super fast and go thru hell, but survive.

 

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Hi Oscar

 

I note that you always say "valium equivalent". I can't remember what benzo you are actually on. Is it a very short acting one? It really would be handy to have that kind of info in your signature - even if you don't want to say where your dose is right now.

 

Perhaps now that your dose if getting quite low, now would be a good time to consider actually switching over to valium. Maybe this could be the boost you need to finally get somewhere with your taper. Perhaps it's not so much the type of taper you are doing, but the actual benzo you are tapering from.

 

What you're doing obviously isn't working terribly well, so when something's not working - change it.

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Hi Oscar

 

I note that you always say "valium equivalent". I can't remember what benzo you are actually on. Is it a very short acting one? It really would be handy to have that kind of info in your signature - even if you don't want to say where your dose is right now.

 

Perhaps now that your dose if getting quite low, now would be a good time to consider actually switching over to valium. Maybe this could be the boost you need to finally get somewhere with your taper. Perhaps it's not so much the type of taper you are doing, but the actual benzo you are tapering from.

 

What you're doing obviously isn't working terribly well, so when something's not working - change it.

 

I am going to look it that Diaz Pam.

 

The problem is liquid valium has alcohol in it... I am not sure if there is an alcohol free type.

 

I am tapering Librium, which is not that short acting...

 

I have a lot of fears from when I was slammed that time and also by reading on here... I have sort of developed a really unhealthy view on this whole damned thing, see my other post... that explains much of my fears..

 

 

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I know you have a problem with alcohol, but the amount you would be using would be very tiny. You don't use the liquid for your entire dose. You would only use it to reduce 1mg at a time (and that would be just 1ml of the liquid valium which you would also be progressively reducing each day too).

 

However, there are alternatives to using liquid valium. You can get yourself a set of jewellers scales and cut tiny amounts off your tablets each day. I've never used this method, but etown on the valium support thread is a dab hand with that method, and I'm sure he'd be only too happy to step you through the process.

 

You can also use whole milk to titrate your tablets. I'm not sure if you have a problem with cow's milk, but you can use substitutes like almond, soy etc, as long as the fat content is similar to whole milk. Once again, you would only use the milk to reduce 1mg at a time.

 

I have some instructions for how to do this in my signature below. I hope you really give some serious thought to this. It might not help, but you'll never know if you don't try it.

 

 

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Oscar, you can have your medication compounded without alcohol.  There are pharmacies (like mine) that have access to the raw powder for all of the benzos and they can compound it in olive oil, almond oil etc.  I have been tapering 24 months now with at least 4 months to go.  In April 2014, I will have been doing this for 5 years.  It has been hell!  I continue to cut, even when I feel bad and I never hold longer than 10 days.  Since going through the 24 month taper, I have never updosed except for when a pharmacy I was using totally messed up my compound and sent me into a 5 month tailspin. 

 

My point, I keep going.  Reason, I will not be well until I am off this horrible drug and have some time behind me.  If you want off the drug, you can get off of it.  It is not bigger than you are.  Keep going!

 

GG

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I also think you could potentially be better off switching to diazepam. In many cases it proves to be more gentle to come off. Personally I know I wouldn't have been able to taper clonazepam successfully.

 

If the liquid form concerns you dry cuts, micro cuts using a scale are a good option especially below 1mg. I've got a scale myself to taper off the last mg, it's only been a few days but it's given me the confidence to finish this off in timely manner.

 

I've been on this drug over 15 years, so as you can see I'm a way long time user myself as well. So I'm sure if I can do it, you can do it.

 

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Hello Oscar,

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. My belief is that you are just prolonging your pain and suffering with an extremely slow taper. You have been very sick for some time, why prolong it any longer by continuing it that way? 

 

I am about 3 days away from being benzo free for the first time in 32 years. My opinion- take it for what its worth- I tapered for 9 months and dry cut all the way down. Many people on here advised me to switch over to valium and/or to extend my taper longer. It appears to me that most people do not feel significantly better until they are off the benzo or at a very small dose of it. For me, that dose was at .062mg (which is the same as 1/32nd of my original 2mg daily dose). I was very sick for 4 months before I hit that plateau.

 

You need to really dig in and get off this poison so your body can heal and you can feel better !! Be positive and know that you will get better and you will. That is your only option. Please do not increase your dose or you will be a hostage to this poison for even longer. You are close Oscar and YOU CAN DO THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

AMA

 

   

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Oscar,

 

I know you have been suffering for a while on this Benzo withdrawal. I think you need to concentrate on coming off this drug completely and remember yourself how good you are going to feel when you heel. Coming off is painfull indeed but you will win this war. Negativity will not get you anywhere. You and only you can do this. It is all in your hands. Best of luck

 

Jake

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so it might be helpful to look at all sides here. what was your life like when you were on your "full dose" of benzo? if it was OK, then maybe you are one of the people that benefit from being on the drug permanently? i dont agree with some people on here that this med is "toxic and evil" for everyone. for me personally, it was incorrectly prescribed. only you can answer these questions. however, if you didnt feel well while on the full dose, then perhaps its reasonable to continue until you are off and see how you feel then?
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Professor Ashton does not recommend a cross over from Librium, (Chlordiazepoxide), to Valium.  Oscar is tapering Librium.  Librium's half life is essentially the same as Valiums. 

 

From the Ashton Manual:

 

Schedule 11 Notes:

 

 

1.Chlordiazepoxide is long-acting so there is no need to take it more frequently than twice a day (hence Stages 4 and 5).

 

2.Because chlordiazepoxide is long-acting, there is no need for diazepam substitution.

 

 

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so it might be helpful to look at all sides here. what was your life like when you were on your "full dose" of benzo? if it was OK, then maybe you are one of the people that benefit from being on the drug permanently? i dont agree with some people on here that this med is "toxic and evil" for everyone. for me personally, it was incorrectly prescribed. only you can answer these questions. however, if you didnt feel well while on the full dose, then perhaps its reasonable to continue until you are off and see how you feel then?

 

I appreciate the comments here everyone, thank you... I take all on board, one thing I do not have in this is a closed mind.

 

So thanks guys.

 

Frogger, I felt good on my full dose, I used to go all day without it and just dose in the evening at 6 pm, 10 pm and then at bed time.

 

For 15 years I was on the equivalent of just 8 mgs Valium and then increased to 12 mgs... and remained there for years.

 

I could reinstate and up my dose every ten years... but I really would rather be off the drug if at all possible... I was starting to have tolerance issues, they were mild but starting to become bothersome... my emotions were pretty dulled down, more than I realized actually... but for the most part, I was fine and never really had any problem being on the drug at all, in many ways I think they helped me... but living with a drug free brain would be so much better, yet had anyone told me the implications of getting off the drug, I would never have even started this...

 

 

 

 

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Professor Ashton does not recommend a cross over from Librium, (Chlordiazepoxide), to Valium.  Oscar is tapering Librium.  Librium's half life is essentially the same as Valiums. 

 

From the Ashton Manual:

 

Schedule 11 Notes:

 

 

1.Chlordiazepoxide is long-acting so there is no need to take it more frequently than twice a day (hence Stages 4 and 5).

 

2.Because chlordiazepoxide is long-acting, there is no need for diazepam substitution.

 

You are right Juliea, this is why I have not crossed over, I do not see much point really... my taper is working but unfortunately I am finding I do get symptomatic reducing now... all I can do is wait each reduction out until I eventually stabilize... and hope that at some point I can either have a smoother taper again or that this gets easier overall.

 

 

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What is the amount of your cut rate right now? And have you always have symptoms even when you started or right before starting?

 

Maybe the long hold will help your brain catch up.

 

It is hard to have an opinion because everyone is so different, I have a friend who sailed off his Klonopin after being on it for 20 years and he is doing well, where as I am not doing so well. The only difference is he never hit acute withdrawal. What a lucky guy!

 

In the same sense things can change and really surprise you. We just don't know.

 

 

 

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What is the amount of your cut rate right now? And have you always have symptoms even when you started or right before starting?

 

Maybe the long hold will help your brain catch up.

 

It is hard to have an opinion because everyone is so different, I have a friend who sailed off his Klonopin after being on it for 20 years and he is doing well, where as I am not doing so well. The only difference is he never hit acute withdrawal. What a lucky guy!

 

In the same sense things can change and really surprise you. We just don't know.

 

I have always had symptoms although some periods of my taper have been pretty smooth.

 

I was basically in constant withdrawal for the first year... but mainly chronic fatigue and cog fog...

 

 

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