Question

Hi Colin,

So, If I want to go real slow, can you check my measurements below?

days: 21

tablets: 3

rate: 2.5 % = 0.025

Volume = 280; period = 93.33

rate: 3%

Volume = 233.33; period = 77.78

rate: 4%

Volume = 175; period = 87.50

What I don't understand is this: if period means number of days taken beetween each cut, should not that be the same as number of days (I chose 21) from the formula?

Am I right in thinking that by this method you are  increasing the amount of taper each day, so that at the end of the tablet titration you are at your max (say 3%)? If I am right, does it mean that the next day, when you start titration of the second tablet, you increase immediately the taper (since you would be reducing the benzo amount by 1 ml)? Or, are you staying on 3% for 21 days, after the initial 78 days (period) before starting again?

Help!

And  thanks so much...

Tanya

Hi Tanya

            Your taper, story , meds, anxiety, and fear are probably the closest to mine Ive seen here. I just started my titration 2 weeks ago..  (started at 1.5mg klon)  titration @ 1mg. klon  Scared??? heck yes. Im about paranoid about it all.getting screwed up and not being able to get back.the whole thing...when you get a blog  going, I'll try to stay in touch.. Ive been reminding myself that Dr.Ashton says " just about ALL the people that taper from benzo's slow  get off of them the first time. Also I believe I read it on Dr. Ashton...saying "if you dont get it done the first time you can always try again" to me that means youll just end up where you started at....the only story I have read about really getting in trouble is going Cold Turkey C/T. I havent read any stories about titration messing you up... see Im pretty paranoid about this stuff too...Its the Klon. doing it Im sure.

                Take Care visit my blog please  Skeeter

Hi Skeeter,

I will visit your blog and start mine soon. We shall be support to each other. Hang in there, and stay positive (listen to me!).

Tanya

So, If I want to go real slow, can you check my measurements below?

days: 21

tablets: 3

rate: 2.5 % = 0.025

Volume = 280; period = 93.33

 

rate: 3%

Volume = 233.33; period = 77.78

 

rate: 4%

Volume = 175; period = 87.50

 

What I don't understand is this: if period means number of days taken beetween each cut, should not that be the same as number of days (I chose 21) from the formula?

 

Am I right in thinking that by this method you are  increasing the amount of taper each day, so that at the end of the tablet titration you are at your max (say 3%)? If I am right, does it mean that the next day, when you start titration of the second tablet, you increase immediately the taper (since you would be reducing the benzo amount by 1 ml)? Or, are you staying on 3% for 21 days, after the initial 78 days (period) before starting again?

Hi, Tanya,

I don't quite understand the questions in your last paragraph, but I will try to explain how I interpret the numbers, which might clear things up.

First of all, your calculations were all correct.

I view your above numbers as presenting three possible rates of taper, of which you would choose one. Am I correct? You are presenting three scenarios, in which you would cut 2.5%, 3%, or 4% of your total dose over a period of 21 days. This is a very slow rate--most people cut around 10% of their dose every two weeks. It's okay to go more slowly, but I just wanted to be sure I understood you right that you want to go very, very slow.

For the 2.5% option, you would start with 93 ml of benzo liquid and reduce by 1 ml every THREE days. (You had to divide 280 by 3 to get 93.)

For the 3% option, you would start with 78 ml of liquid and reduce by 1 ml every THREE days. (You had to divide 233 by 3 to get 78.)

For the 4% option, you would start with 88 ml of liquid and reduce by 1 ml every TWO days. (You had to divide 175 by 2 to get 88.)

As you can see from the above, there are two references to "days" in the formula. One reference refers to the overall taper--you want to cut so much of your dose over so many days. So you have said you want to cut, say, 2.5% of your dose over 21 days. (That would be like cutting 0.1%, or one-tenth of a percent, of your dose every day.) The other reference to "days" in the formula refers to the number of days between making 1ml cuts from the liquid. For most people, they will cut 1 ml every day. But if you need to go very slowly, or if you have very potent tablets, cutting 1 ml every day will be too much. So then you cut every other day or every third day. I outlined those in your examples.

Does this make sense?

Therese

I see now from reading your other thread that you do want to go at a very slow rate. That is fine. If things go well, you can always cut more frequently--every other day or even every day--instead of at the rate of every third day, etc. You don't have to stick 100% to the schedule. As Bobers says, you run the schedule, the schedule doesn't run you.

Therese

Hi Tanya,

As Therese pointed out, you will not be making cuts every day because you wish to withdraw so slowly. The method we use relies upon you using a 100ml cylinder with 1ml graduations. For most people, the formula produces a volume of less than 100ml that can be reduced by 1ml every day. Because you planned taper is so slow, the formula produces a volume of more than 100ml. The solution is to reduce the volume but make the cuts less frequently. Obtaining a cylinder more than 100ml in size is not a solution, as you will not find one that has 1ml graduations.

I am working a new method that will make things simpler, but for now, stick with the method as outlined. The figures have been checked by Therese - they seem correct to me too.

Take care.

Therese and Colin,

Thanks for checking my measurements. So, it means that after 87 days I will have tapered 4%, not after 21 days, right? Wow, that IS slow...but I don't dare going faster.

Colin, I hope you are feeling better.

OK, I'll order the cylinder now and I reserve my right for more questions

Take care guys.

Tanya 

Hi, Tanya,

Actually, if you use the 4% scenario, you will still have tapered 4% after 21 days, because that is how we set up the formula.

After 87 (or 88) days, you will have gotten halfway through one of your three tablets, since you are cutting 1 ml only every other day. So after 87 days, you will have cut roughly 17% of your dose (1 / 6 = 0.16666...).

And just to make sure there's no confusion, I just want to be sure that you understand you titrate only one of the tablets. That is, only one of the tablets goes into the cylinder before you cut the 1 ml every other day. You can crush your remaining tablets and add them to the cylinder *afterwards* if you like, to divide your daily dose up into parts, but make sure that when you're actually doing the cutting, only one tablet is in the cylinder.

Therese

Therese,

OK, I get it as far as what I have to do. I understood about making suspension with 1 tablet only but the meaning of 'period' was not clear to me. I will probably start when I get the cylinder in the mail (I am starting to shake even at the thought of it, but I have to do it, I have to, I have to....).

Thanks Therese.

Tanya

Colin, Therese, other bbs,

I am sorry to bug you again. I just want to make sure I understand it all. (As you can see, "all" does not happen at once.)

So, assume I am on 3%, 21 days, 78 ml, scenario. Every 3rd day I cut 1 ml.  If I crush one whole tablet, it means that I have to keep good track, every time I reduce 1 ml, how much is left, right. Say, on the 12th day, I am really disposing of 4ml, and will be down to 74 ml left.  Am I right?

I am so grateful to you all for the help. I am full of anxiety, but I don't know any more what's what - tolerancy w/d, fear of cutting, perimenopausal changes, anger that I've been in this poison for so long, dealing w/household issues, etc.

thanks...

Hi Tanya,

I have to go in few minutes, but will be back later. Have look at my my recent posts. I have new method that will supply you with all the information your require. It means that the preparation will be the same every day, and it will also tell how much to take which dates. I'll check in again within the hour.

So, assume I am on 3%, 21 days, 78 ml, scenario. Every 3rd day I cut 1 ml.  If I crush one whole tablet, it means that I have to keep good track, every time I reduce 1 ml, how much is left, right. Say, on the 12th day, I am really disposing of 4ml, and will be down to 74 ml left.  Am I right?

Looks good to me! We recommend that people keep a written log to keep track of their dosages. You can just use a notebook, or else you can use a decent-sized calendar. I used a calendar and wrote my dose on each day so that I wouldn't have to remember anything.

I am full of anxiety, but I don't know any more what's what - tolerancy w/d, fear of cutting, perimenopausal changes, anger that I've been in this poison for so long, dealing w/household issues, etc.

It's pretty impossible to tell what's you and what's the w/d when it comes to emotions. Benzo w/d (and tolerance) makes our nervous system so sensitive that even slight things can create an overreaction when it comes to our emotions. This will heal over time. Ashton recommends insulating yourself from stress as much as possible during w/d because of our oversensitive nervous systems. So try to take it easy on yourself as much as possible.

Therese

Hi all,

Before I start my taper I just want to run this by you all... I've been on Klonopin/clonazepam for almost 14 years. I definitely have tolerance w/d and paradoxical symptoms (is there a difference?). Anxiety, depression, bad sleep, digestive problems, physical pains, panic attacks, you name it - I have it. Yet, I'm functioning. Going to work, taking care of kids.

Has anybody here been this long on this poison, and if yes, how slow did you go? I am sooooo scared that all of what I've had will become so much worse that I won't be able to function at all. Last night I felt so anxious, developed panic attack, just from thinking about tapering. It's obsessing me and it feels like a huge black cloud that will never go away. How can I be successful if I feel this way... I guess I am looking for encouragement. It seems that I only "hear" the awful stuff people go through. Can it be easier for me since I know how withdrawal feels?

I am sorry to bother you, but sometimes I feel like running away from all of this. Yet, I know the medicine is my poison...

Please tell me something good. I am so grateful to all of you and wish your symptoms go away soon.

Similar to what Silver said yesterday: before meds  :'(, during meds  :'(, before taper  :'(

Thank you....

Tanya,

Cheer up my friend.  Life is going to be so much better once you are off benzos.

Does Colin having you stabilizing before you begin your taper?

Sandy

Hi Sandy,

I don't know what you mean by being stabilised?

Thanks for encouragement. I fear I'll become a vegetable....

Hi Sandy,

 

I don't know what you mean by being stabilised?

 

Thanks for encouragement. I fear I'll become a vegetable....

 

Tanya,

I'm not sure what this site's rules are about up dosing.  If it were me, I would go back up to a dose where I felt OK (stable) before I would start cutting.  That's just my personal opinion.  I have only been doing this for nine months.  Colin and the other mods are much more qualified to work with you on this.

Everythings going to be alright.

Sandy

Hi, Tanya and Sandy,

In the case of someone who has reached tolerance on their benzo, we do not recommend updosing. It's because you will just have to taper back down through the additional dosage. The only exception we make is for someone who is actually in the course of a taper and makes a cut that is just too big for their system. In that case, we do recommend "correcting" the cut by taking a little extra benzo, but not more than before they made the cut.

Tanya, I know how crippling the fear can be. I was absolutely petrified as I started my taper. I too had panic attacks and horrible anxiety. One thing that helped me immensely was to read the Benzodiazepine Recovery Tips, which appear on this site, over and over:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/benzo-chat/benzo-recovery-tips/msg51528/#msg51528

One that helped me a lot was number 5:

"5. When people are in recovery, they have a lot of fears. One is that they will never get better. Another is that their symptoms are really what they are like — perhaps what they have always been like. Both of these fears are stimulated by benzo withdrawal. In other words they are the thought components of benzo withdrawal, just as insomnia is a physical component."

To use a religious expression, you really have to have faith that you will make it through this. You have to have faith that things will get better. I just kept pushing ahead even though I was scared out of my wits. I thought, "I might be different from all these people who are posting here who said that they were scared too. They recovered, but maybe I won't. I had anxiety issues before my taper. I'm going to be screwed up forever." That's w/d talking. When the thoughts come, you just have to have faith, refuse to listen to them--do not entertain them, but drop them like a hot potato--and continue on. This is extremely difficult, even though it sounds easy.

For me, it became easier as I progressed through the taper. I started having "windows" where I felt more like myself. Then when the symptoms came back with each cut, I could more confidently say that it was w/d and not me. But this took a while, and even after I realized this, there were still some really nasty patches where psychologically I was really struggling with holding onto the idea that I would eventually be okay. Now, here I am, off benzos, and so much of that anxiety and panic is gone. It's at a very manageable level--and has been for quite some time.

As far as the taper speed, you'll just have to do what is comfortable for you. Don't worry about how fast other people are going--they're not you. You're the one who has to deal with the symptoms. You may find (I did) that one day is absolutely horrible but the next day is absolutely great. So just because you're going through a bad patch does not mean things will not improve.

Good luck on your taper, Tanya!

Therese

When people are in recovery, they have a lot of fears. One is that they will never get better.

Therese,

I read these tips.  Thanks for sharing them with us.  I just have one question.  Are we in "recovery" while we are tapering or is it not until we are off benzos completely?  It wasn't clear to me.

Thanks again!

Sandy

Therese and Sandy, hi!

I guess I will just have to bite the bullet. Therese, what you wrote about yourself is exactly how I feel - all the people here are recovering, but I will not. Also, I don't hear anything from somebody who's been on this for as long as I have....

I wish I knew about tolerancy years ago. And I wish I googled 'klonopin taper' sooner (and found you guys...). I've never heard about titration before, even though I was asking people how I could reduce the dose by little increments. By now I could have been off this junk...

For the last few years, I've been going home (Europe) once a year. I calm my nerves there, surrounded by family and good friends. And to few of them I've been saying "My goal in life is to get off this medicine I am on". This year a friend asked me how was it going with the medicine and I had to admit it was yet another year in status quo. Imagine, for 7-8 years I haven't increased the daily dose. What brutal tolerance this must be ...

Therese, can I prepare my milk suspension the night before? Mornings are tough for me even at my best.

Sorry for my rambling. You guys are so good and I thank you very much.

Love to both.

Tanya

Hallo Sandy and Tanya,

My understanding is that once you start tapering, you can consider yourself recovering. Your body starts to recover as soon as you begin tapering. It doesn't wait until your last dose to start repairing itself, otherwise no one would ever get off this stuff.

I always made my milk solution at night and I used it for several days, usually 4 days if I remember correctly. If it got to smelling funny, I tossed it and made a new one.

hang in there! you both will do fine!!!!

rufus