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worried about rapid taper


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Ive gone as far as i can go now. Ive spoken to as many people as possible about all this. My doctor called twice yesterday.

First call of my appointment was a whole lot of confusion and more upset. He tried giving me a new plan of 2 different doses of the X. One was 0.5 mg for so many days and the other was .25 mg of the X for the remaining days...i couldnt even understand what the hell he was talking about. Telling me i was going to be going even slower,  which isnt what i could understand, and then i asked him if he read the email i gave to the pharmacist there at the clinic from Dr Shipko, psychiatrist.  He said he did but i had it handy and read it to him out loud and straight up repeating it, I was at risk of  having a stroke or heart attack or even seizure,  if this taper rate continued the way he was doing it.

He just kept going on about this new plan, still expecting me to get down to 5 and 4 and 3 etc...with in a few months. He was getting pretty nervous or having his own panic attack or something because he had to go. I told him  I'd be out Monday since i couldn't get down to 5 tabs a day or 2.5 mg, so he said he was going to fax this new script,  yesterday. I had no options, so again, said fine. I was totally exhausted by this again.

Then he called back about 15 minutes later and in a frantic tone, tells me, ** i cant, i cant do this taper, im not tapering anymore, its too much, and you're obviously unstable, and im leaving this with the psychiatrist to taper you,......im at risk.....stay on your 6 tabs until you see the psychiatrist.....**** , then im still upset, unstable? and trying to wrap my brain around what he just said, then ask ,is he faxing in anymore scripts, like whatever he said previously? He says he faxed in whatever script, not really being clear, and said you will be taking 6 a day, etc.

So i called the pharmacy  this morning, found out the script he  faxed in was for 6 tabs a day, but only 112 to last for 30 days? And then also telling the pharmacist to make sure i only take 5 tabs most of the days in that month......wtH??? They're 0.5 mg tabs she said, i said hes been screwing me up since last July.  Hes got no idea hes doing at all. He doesn't.  The way he spoke to me , even though im a little messed up myself at the moment, it seriously sounds like hes discombobulated and screwed up himself.

 

 

 

Ill try to get back on here later, just wanted to update you all.

 

Edit... Made quite a few changes on this post as I  was a little overwhelmed when i wrote it. I posted my rough idea of a plan on the ..plan your taper board.

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a rapid taper is possible, but not recommended

 

if you do so, there are hospitals and medical facilities which offer these services

 

best of luck :)

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a rapid taper is possible, but not recommended

 

if you do so, there are hospitals and medical facilities which offer these services

 

best of luck :)

 

That's the last thing I want. Hospitals, facilities like detox are not on my agenda. They're no better. I'm doing this my way and pray to God this pharmacist of mine can actually speak up for me as he said he would.

 

Thanks for the advice anyway.

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You might be able to negotiate 6 more months or so give it a try. From your dose, a year would be the minimum taper imo.

 

Thanks keagan, according to the pharmacist, the doctor did fax over a script for a 3 MTH supply but messed the calculations..so the pharmacist is fixing that part and I've come up with another taper plan to give my pharmacist to help communicate what I want to do, it's just a simple straightforward monthly reduction of 5 ,%. Instead of the doctors reduction of 30 tabs per month...I'm not feeling my best yet. Today brought on some uncomfortable dizzy spells, probably from all the stress,and trying to make sense of all this. I'm struggling to stabilize..

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Hello Moojoo

Reaching out as I feel furious about your situation.

I work as a nurse in Australia. As someone already mentioned our oath as health professionals is to “Do

no harm”. I believe you have a right to report this doctor.

In Australia, we have both a health ombudsman &r health professional regulatory body that members of the public can make reports against health professionals. I’m not sure what’s available in Canada.

Tapering is like walking through hell. I’m having an ok day today however have been on occasions bed ridden, not eating, barely able to sleep etc. I’ve never felt more vulnerable.

I tried tapering too quickly & suffered the consequences. I’m currently holding on 6mg Valium. Will remain here until I feel stabilised. My doc has tried to push me to continue however I’ve had to set some firm boundaries around my recovery. Thinking of you. Take care

 

Hi Joanne

 

I’m also in Australia. As you can see by my signature, I held for 13 weeks at 6.5 v, and it was the best thing I could’ve done. Once I resumed tapering at 5% from a stabile base, everything became much easier, no walk in the park, but much easier. I hope you find the same kind of relief that I did.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ive woken from sleep with my heart racing several times in the last couple months.

It slows down somewhat afterwards, but im so tired i cant actually be bothered by it.  Is all this  normal withdrawal symptoms ?

Im still holding a 3mg a day, and thinking of starting my dry , cut & hold taper this weekend, as i should have my scale soon.  Should I wait a bit longer? Ive also been under a lot of stress from the doctor too, and ready to hand my taper plan of 5% monthly to my pharmacist so he can give it to the doctor.

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Normal symptoms but miserable we know, so nothing to be alarmed about.  It sounds like it might be time to begin, it could address the pressure you’re getting from your doctor but more importantly, to start the process that will mean your freedom from this drug.  :thumbsup:
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Well, my scale delivery is now pushed back to Feb 9. Seems either courier issues or plain stupidity.  It was supposed to be delivered feb 3. Grrrrrrr.....

I have a couple questions in regards to my present tapering....

 

1) When would be a good time to start tapering off of O ? Currently I take 45mg at bedtime for sleep.  Ive had no issues with them , then again I wonder if they can interfere or possibly exacerbate with my X taper?

 

2) I'm due to go in on Wed for my shingles vaccine and seeing ive been going through some pretty stressful episodes, yet  starting to feel somewhat better after the wd symptoms from X, could my immune system be weak after all this?

 

For Q1 , I was considering the same 5% dry taper as with the X , using scale, file etc. Or should i try tapering at all off O right now? I was going to wait.

 

For Q2, I have been under a lot of stress for a few months and with not eating or sleeping properly,  im thinking my immune system is low, at my age.

 

Also, I haven't heard back from the pharmacist since I emailed him my taper plan Friday feb 3. Im giving him time to go over it, along with all my research material,  well a summary of it all. My doctors nurse had called Friday feb 3 as well stating the Dr was fine with  me being under my pharmacists guidance with the tapering plan off X, so im hoping theres no more unexpected u- turns or detours coming again.

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It looks like things aren’t conducive right now to begin your taper, I’m not hearing much confidence so maybe it would be better to wait until you get your scales, get the vaccination behind you and you hear from your pharmacist.

 

As far as which drug to taper first, I don’t think it makes much difference, they’re both short acting and need to go. 

 

As for your Q2 comment, when you begin your taper, stress, sleeping and eating properly are all going to be challenging. This is the ultimate stress test but our bodies seem up to the challenge for the most part and our ability to recover from this horrific experience is a testament to our resilience.

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Never did get my scale. Courier lost it in Montreal, Quebec. And the tracking number is still showing it sitting there , since Jan 31.

 

Waiting for refund from Amazon. 

 

New development from RAAM. Nurse Clinician did her assessment and review of my taper off my X and told me I didn't need to go off them? She assessed the dose I'm currently on , would be considered harm reduction,  in a matter of speaking.  She felt my tapering process was unnecessary for my age and because I was able to reduce 2 mg a day off the X, she seen no real reason for me to continue. She sent an email to my doctor Friday past, and sent me a copy. I have another virtual appointment tomorrow,  if she's not busy. I emailed my pharmacist and he's puzzled by it. So am I.

 

I told him I was seeking help with tapering proper since the doctor continues to refuse to listen to me, but I was looking at harm reduction as well. I'm not overly concerned about it,  and I know the doctor will refuse to listen to this NC. anyway, so I'm wondering if anyone here ever went this route? Did or is anyone remain on a low maintenance dose? She called it a therapeutic dose.

 

Seeing I'm feeling fairly decent health wise,  I did reduce a wee bit more but not enough to upset my system again. 

 

I swear, all I wanted to do was ask if I could get some help from a doctor or RN who would prescribe and allow me to lead my own taper. Then I got that big surprise.  Not sure if it's fate or something else.

 

Any words of wisdom?

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A therapeutic dose would be great if you don’t become tolerant to it and begin to experience symptoms.  What are your thoughts, do you want to wait to see if this is a possibility?  We’ll support whatever you decide.
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A therapeutic dose would be great if you don’t become tolerant to it and begin to experience symptoms.  What are your thoughts, do you want to wait to see if this is a possibility?  We’ll support whatever you decide.

 

Yes, a therapeutic dose would be great and not having to suffer anymore withdrawals, even better and I want to go this route. I do agree with what she said BUT Im worried this doctor of mine wont go along with this idea. I could ask  the CN tomorrow if they have a doctor who would prescribe them , maybe? At the same time Im preparing myself to move on with the taper but I am following my own plan, if I end up back to that again.

 

This has been a huge roller coaster ride. My gosh :[

 

 

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Even though you’ve been treated horribly by this doctor, it looks like you have a lot of people in your corner.  I don’t have any advice, I’m sorry but I if you need to connect with Winniedog, you could send her a PM. 
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Right now , the only people in my corner are my husband, and thats about it. Im not going to bother anymore. Eveything ive done in the last 7 mths has been a waste of time.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

 

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Hey Moojoo

 

We care about you here too.

 

I’m not sure what to tell you?

 

Do they not have a dr at the RAAM clinic who will prescribe you the benzo?

 

Seems odd to me, as that’s where my benzo is prescribed.

 

You could have the RAAM clinic call my RAAM clinic and ask if the drs will prescribe or help you find a dr who will?

 

You cannot be cut off, if you need to, go to the ER etc.

 

My RAAM clinic is at Womens College Hospital 416-323-7559 ext 6

 

Or The RAAM clinic can try calling CAMH as well?

 

I’m sorry you’re going through this.

 

I wish I could help more, but I’m pretty sick right now myself.

 

Please keep us up to date with how you’re doing

 

My husband is actually going to Hamilton tonight to get my daughter from McMaster.

 

Hugs,

Winnie

 

 

 

 

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Hey Moojoo

 

We care about you here too.

 

I’m not sure what to tell you?

 

Do they not have a dr at the RAAM clinic who will prescribe you the benzo?

 

Seems odd to me, as that’s where my benzo is prescribed.

 

You could have the RAAM clinic call my RAAM clinic and ask if the drs will prescribe or help you find a dr who will?

 

You cannot be cut off, if you need to, go to the ER etc.

 

My RAAM clinic is at Womens College Hospital 416-323-7559 ext 6

 

Or The RAAM clinic can try calling CAMH as well?

 

I’m sorry you’re going through this.

 

I wish I could help more, but I’m pretty sick right now myself.

 

Please keep us up to date with how you’re doing

 

My husband is actually going to Hamilton tonight to get my daughter from McMaster.

 

Hugs,

Winnie

 

 

 

 

I know theres people here who care winniedog, I'm just not seeing much help lately. 

I also understand that there are a lot of people here who need help as well.

My support circle is shrinking. Mention harm reduction and eveything goes quiet. Ive not heard from the doctor, which I'm not worried about since hes been the biggest part of my stress,  nothing from the pharmacist,  raam clinic,  except last i spoke to them, i was told they deal mainly with addiction.  I tried the women's college you mentioned, but i was told i have to call the one in my area. Waterloo- Wellington.  And i did that. RN just said she didnt believe i should be tapering anymore because i dont show signs of medication misuse or abuse, something like that.

Guess I wait, and  wait some more. The RN from the RAAM clinic said she was to email doctor about my assessment , which she sent me a copy. That was  feb 8....I I know,  almost for certain,  the doc isn't going to agree with her suggestion.

🙄

 

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Hi moojoo

 

I’ve been away on a sudden break after hitting a very rough patch, and I just wanted to say I’m so sorry to see you are still hitting all these brick walls. It’s just terrible. Please don’t lose hope, and just know that we are all here in your corner to provide any support possible.  :hug:

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I agree with Winters sun.  Please don’t lose hope.

 

Given that you have interacted with Dr. Shipko via email, you might find this video of interest:

 

Interview with veteran deprescriber Dr. Stuart Shipko

 

It’s a long video but at one point Dr. Shipko and Dr. Witt-Doerring discuss the topic of when individuals might decide NOT to discontinue a benzodiazepine.

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Hi Moojoo22,

 

If these clinics/centers would only help you if you seem addicted couldn't you pretend to be an addict then? I mean technically we all are physically addicted even though not psychologically? (Although I do hate here in Europe all doctors try to push me into addiction guidance when I'm not.)

 

I like Dr. Witt-Doering. His channel is nice and he's very kind. I don't live in the States but I've emailed with him regardless.

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[b1...]

The worst case scenario I had worried about finally came out today.

Got a letter in the mail from the doctor and hes leaving the clinic in June of this year. Sending off some patients , at random, to a few other in clinic doctors, and said if any wanted to follow him to his new clinic were welcome to but I doubt he wants anything to do with me unless I follow his bullying, rapid taper. I suffer, to bad. Its now looking impossible and grim. I sent him an email asking him to extend my meds for as long as possible, so I could find someone to help me, but I am doubting this will ever happen now. All the worries I had about all this just went POOF in my face. I had hoped he would have concurred with the RAAM RNs email, but I guess buggering off was an easier way out of this mess he created.

 

I knew this was coming as I had my suspicions. He didnt stick around very long. He had just joined the clinic in July 2021, took me on as his patient, all was fine up until last summer, now I will not have a prescribing doctor, whether for tapering or harm reduction.

 

This was the last straw. I have one refill left of the X, and 2 left of the O.

 

He had told me once before, that no doctor at that clinic would prescribe either medication , he pushed me into this mess and now hes buggering off.

Im still stuck at 3mg. of the X and continue to take my O at bedtime. I cant get in touch with my pharmacist as hes away on holiday. I contacted RAAM and they cant do anything.

 

All the research, and every single document I printed out for him to read and all the information I tried to share with him was a total waste of time. I sent copy of my taper /harm reduction plan to the pharmacist, but asked he hold it until I heard that the doctor received the email from RAAM about the unnecessary tapering and who also advised him to leave me on both meds as they were. He got that email as the nurse at the clinic confirmed that 3 days ago. He had received it Feb 9 2023, but she was unaware if he even read it.

 

I have tried several doctors, none will prescribe any benzo, none. Im lost, stressed to the hilt and have given up. I slept 3 hrs last night. I am tired, but just cant sleep, i dont want to eat or do nothing.

I dont understand how doctors like him can get away with this,and not have any remorse whatsoever as to how much harm they cause.

 

even venting doesnt help. Im sick of it all. Sorry if I upset anyone here. You can delete my profile if need be. Everything I tried these last several months is wasted. Im not trying anymore. When the meds are gone, theyre gone. I will most likely end up going the remainder of of this cold turkey.

 

thanks for all the help.

 

It was a lot of help, but everything unfortunately got me no where with this doctor.

 

God Bless

 

 

 

 

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[b1...]

Moojoo

 

Don’t give up!

Get your husband to drive you to Womens College Hospital tomorrow before 12.

 

Go to the RAAM clinic and just sit there.

Ask to see Dr Gabilan Sivapatham

He will see you and help you.

 

He will help taper you as slow as you need.

 

At least this will provide you with the script until you can find a dr who will prescribe

 

Don’t listen to what that person told you on the phone.

 

Ask to talk to Allan Smart as well.

He will help you.

PLEASE GO this is your only chance.

They are both there tomorrow

 

Go before noon

 

If he sees you in person once he will do everything else by video

 

Please try, you’re worth it.

 

Winnie

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[b1...]

Hi moojoo

 

No one is going to delete your profile, moojoo, as your reaction to your circumstances is completely normal and expected given what you’ve already been through.

 

Again, please don’t give up all hope.

 

We really dont know how well your doctor is respected, and he may have many patients who are offside with him given his bullying and aggressive disposition. Also, how does he know that no other doctor at the clinic would prescribe for you under your circumstances. In my own doctors clinic, all the doctors have a different level of knowledge and position when it comes to benzodiazepines. It sounds like a throw away line to defend his ego to me, and besides, he shouldn’t be speaking for other doctors. It’s not his place.

 

Have you tried any other doctors at that specific clinic?

 

I know you don’t want to prolong or exacerbate any mental/emotional trauma surrounding your current experience with this doctor, but just know that there would be a higher body where you can report his behaviour. Who knows, he may have previous strikes against him, and this could also potentially be the reason he moves on. Those doctors with behavioural problems here in Australia, generally end up being Locum doctors, moving around and filling in at different clinics because no clinic wants them on a permanent basis. I can’t imagine many other patients warm to your doctor.

 

He probably did read that email, and it may possibly have just angered him more, as he clearly has a chip on his shoulder.

 

Of course, this is all just speculation.

 

I know this situation naturally triggers panic stations, and understandably so, but we never know the future, and it’s possible that there may be a positive outcome on the other side of this… you’re rid of a bully, and potential is still there for you to find a much more gentle understanding doctor to work along side you.

 

Please keep trying doctors, don’t give up!

 

We are always here for you, moojoo, no matter what the outcome. You will always find understanding and support here, as limited as that support may be in regard to your prescriptions.

 

Do not hesitate to reach out to us, moojoo, and as I said, keep on searching for another doctor who is much more understanding and supportive of your situation.  :hug:

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
[b1...]

I spoke to someone from the women's college hospital you mentioned Winniedog,  no one there can do anything as I don't live in that area, plus the woman I spoke to gave me Sunnybrooks number and email which I did email and got no response. 

In my last post , my doctor has since emailed me and offering me to stay on as his patient and he would continue with phone appointments with me but never mentioned whether he acknowledged the RAAM clinics RNs email. I cant follow this person to another city only to be treated in the same manner. Ive spoken to my pharmacist about what happened and hes surprised and apparently pissed off. My husband  was talking to him last week. I'm pretty much just living day to day now. I've no desire to even try anymore. My therapist is just as bad as the doctor. Sue doesn't listen . I try explaining my points about why I decided to go harm reduction, but it's falling on deaf ears.

 

I don't want to taper anymore.  I'm tired of worrying and feeling scared of how my body will react or my anxiety and panic attacks coming back with a vengeance. Then the therapist goes on again with me about trying the new anxiety meds.  Like what? Citalopram ciprolex, seroquel,  more SSRI's,  more antidepressants? I've tried them all years ago and they make things worse for me. She dead set on me getting off these ** dangerous drugs*** . I told her their dangerous if mixed with other narcotics,  which in my case isn't happening. I'm not taking anything else. I'm so sick and tired of hearing this biased bs from so called educated people.

 

I went from 4.5 mg down to 3mg a day. I figure I did pretty dam good. I function just fine and have no odd ball side effects as long as I'm stress free and don't have other people pushing me into something I don't want to do. Sorry , but at one point I was so ready to do this whole tapering process and get off the X amd now im just fed up trying.  The doctor pushed me too hard and his treatment toward me those several months was the last straw. I trust no one now.

And to top this off, my husband and I got into unnecessary arguments over this. He cant handle my stress no more he said. Its bothering him now so he leaves the house every day and I stay home. We talk but not like we use to. Everything has changed . After all this I've changed. I'm not happy or able to confide in anyone else. I feel like I'm boxed in, like I've no rights to decide what direction I want to go. Do we not have rights at all as patients?

And I listened to Dr Shipko talking to DrJosef Witt-Doerring few weeks back, and where he mentioned allowing or what he thinks about older patients not being forced into tapering. What's the point of suffering my final days ,and no one can tell me I'll  live until I'm 80 or 90, no one has that ability, period. So suffering my senior years trying to taper off a drug that's doing no harm , and then end up still suffering after I'm off . What's the point? If I  was a young lady, in my 30s or 40s, yes, I would definitely do it, but I'm up in age and I'm sick of being sick worrying and trying to explain this to people. It's just ruining what's left of my damn life. That's all.

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