This whole thing we all have is NOT withdrawal

Hi there,

So after countless of sleepless nights spend in front of a screen i have come to conclusion.

All the suffering that we go through is not simply a benzo wd.

Withdrawal being the word that is absolutely wrong.

Through my researches, I found out that absolutely the same symptoms can one get from many other paradoxical reactions of our CNS.

For example, withdrawing AD's has the same effect, taking different antibiotics have THE SAME effects on some, taking corticosteroids bring THE SAME reaction in some,etc.

When i talk about antibiotics,steroids etc i dont mean taking them during "wd" but takin em as a healthy individual only to end up damaged like this.

So this whole thing has nothing much to do with GABA,receptors,etc but is indeed a DAMAGE TO CNS. And that damage ALWAYS manifests itself in the same way. Regardless if its from benzos,ad's,steroids or something else

Feel free to search the web in order to see that people eho got hurt by other stuff I mentioned suffer exactly the same consequences.

 

Perhaps of interest ….

 

Withdrawal vs. BIND [benzodiazepine-Induced Neurological Dysfunction]

 

In the past, withdrawal and terms associated with BIND have been somewhat interchangeable. This is no longer the case. Based on recent research, we now understand that these are two distinct effects of benzodiazepine use.

 

Benzodiazepine withdrawal is specific to the removal of the drugs from the body, which typically lasts 7 to 28 days after discontinuation. Symptoms which are common and related to this process can include tremors, hallucinations, and seizures, which and be severe and even life-threatening. Thankfully, these symptoms are usually of short-duration. These are the symptoms that most physicians have been trained to look for when someone is discontinuing benzos. This is one of the key reasons why BIND has been so rarely recognized by the medical community.

 

BIND symptoms are typically longer lasting. There are dozens of symptoms — some claim more than a hundred — that can be attributed to BIND. The most frequently reported of these based on a recent survey are severe anxiety, difficulty focusing and distraction, low energy, and insomnia. Others like memory loss, sensitivity to light, sound and smell, digestion difficulties, pain, akathisia, trembling, tinnitus, uncontrollable emotions, muscle weakness, pulls, and strains, were also common. These are thought to be attributed to neuroadaptation to the drugs, and recovery from this can take months, even years in some people.

 

Source:

Basics of BIND

https://easinganxiety.com/blog/basics-of-bind/

 

Perhaps of interest ….

 

Withdrawal vs. BIND [benzodiazepine-Induced Neurological Dysfunction]

 

In the past, withdrawal and terms associated with BIND have been somewhat interchangeable. This is no longer the case. Based on recent research, we now understand that these are two distinct effects of benzodiazepine use.

 

Benzodiazepine withdrawal is specific to the removal of the drugs from the body, which typically lasts 7 to 28 days after discontinuation. Symptoms which are common and related to this process can include tremors, hallucinations, and seizures, which and be severe and even life-threatening. Thankfully, these symptoms are usually of short-duration. These are the symptoms that most physicians have been trained to look for when someone is discontinuing benzos. This is one of the key reasons why BIND has been so rarely recognized by the medical community.

 

BIND symptoms are typically longer lasting. There are dozens of symptoms — some claim more than a hundred — that can be attributed to BIND. The most frequently reported of these based on a recent survey are severe anxiety, difficulty focusing and distraction, low energy, and insomnia. Others like memory loss, sensitivity to light, sound and smell, digestion difficulties, pain, akathisia, trembling, tinnitus, uncontrollable emotions, muscle weakness, pulls, and strains, were also common. These are thought to be attributed to neuroadaptation to the drugs, and recovery from this can take months, even years in some people.

 

Source:

Basics of BIND

https://easinganxiety.com/blog/basics-of-bind/

 

Yes,great. Neurological dysfunction or damage is THE thing. It can happen from variety of reason. Benzos being one of them. Thats why ppl here should stop mentioning the word "wd" and instead maybe use terms like BIND or damage. If we discard wd as a thing and adopr BIND then we will have to discard theories like "we have insomnia now because we were used that benzos help us fall asleep and now when there is no benzo we cant sleep". Ppl who got damaged by antibiotics also have insomnia etc. At a larger perspective, web sites like BB and survivingantidepressants.org should merge and have one more appropriate name like "Neuro dysfunction buddies" or something like that. Also there are many ppl who suffer like we do from adverse reactions to street drugs. So there are a lot of people suffering the same symptoms which were caused by different drugs and illnesses like COVID.

I think you are definitely onto something here.  There is a lot of me that feels like this is 100% my fault.  "If only I had known different I wouldn't have taken this medication".  I realize we are all in this same situation.  I was able to find this site after I just stopped taking it and didn't know what was happening.    Thank you for posting this. 

I could not disagree more wholeheartedly about the BIND stage.

 

The CNS is not damaged.

 

People lack the genetics and the nutrition to make sufficient amounts of certain chemicals in the body and brain that ameliorate the mast cell activation, inflammation and toxicity brought on by benzo use and withdrawal. This is why some people can take benzos and cold turkey without any problems. They have the genes and nutrition to deal with the neurochemical stress brought on by removing the benzo.

 

I have looked at the genetics of me and another BB, and we are very similar in our dysfunctions, all of which relate to poor control of mast cells, histamine, inflammation, and detoxification.

 

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't realize this was your post, Weekend!  We already had this discussion. I apologize!! 

I think it’s probably a little of both, having come of baclofen post benzo and during benzo acute, it was nothing like tapering the brnzo, so gaba receptors must still play a part but the other side is your right as they all link via broken CNS but it’s the cause of the broken CNS, it’s interesting though

Ok, but we have to agree that it doesnt matter what damaged us. As all the things I listed do the same damage,have same consequences and results. So we are not talking here in this web about benzo withdrawal but insted we talk about damage to our cns or brain or system generally.

I have been thinking about this issue a lot lately, I have been conceptualizing my symptoms from the lenses of GABA receptor damage caused by Benzo's but haven't been taking into consideration the bigger picture.

 

I always thought as my symptoms its effects as a cause of Gaba Down regulation then a backlash of Glutamate, this is true; What I had not considered is how much of our symptoms are caused by the suppression of Glutamate; These drugs Increase Gaba and therefor damage Gaba receptors, but at the same time they are suppressing glutamate, causing damage to glutamate receptors . The suppression of glutamate, and the dysfunction that is causes, speaks to my symptoms in a much more logical way than it being effected by Gaba.

 

Serotonin, Dopamine, Norephinepherine, and the most important Glutamate are the chemicals that primarily manage your CNS. We know that if to much glutamate can lead to cell death, and what we have all done is stopped the suppression and let loose a death spiral of cells within our CNS. I don't have have in your face symptoms anymore, but I do have sensitivities; I think I have healed mostly from the withdrawals, and the Gaba related issues. Its the damage from the Glutamate that still haunts me. This only leads me to believe that its my CNS that I am healing, not my gaba receptors and this totally changes my outlook on decisions I take. 

 

I am not in post recovery withdrawals. I am in Post Trauma Recovery. The trauma being the damage that coming off of and withdrawing caused; The trauma that cannot be seen on a cellular level, but can be felt. The trauma that makes this a long road, and not an easy one to navigate. The positive is I worked in a hospital, I have seen Trauma and horror; But I have also seen those same people recover and go back to normal. My mind has shifted, and by doing this, so have my expectations. It can take years for a trauma victim to heal, it makes only sense that the trauma to our CNS will take years, But we will heal. 

I have been thinking about this issue a lot lately, I have been conceptualizing my symptoms from the lenses of GABA receptor damage caused by Benzo's but haven't been taking into consideration the bigger picture.

 

I always thought as my symptoms its effects as a cause of Gaba Down regulation then a backlash of Glutamate, this is true; What I had not considered is how much of our symptoms are caused by the suppression of Glutamate; These drugs Increase Gaba and therefor damage Gaba receptors, but at the same time they are suppressing glutamate, causing damage to glutamate receptors . The suppression of glutamate, and the dysfunction that is causes, speaks to my symptoms in a much more logical way than it being effected by Gaba.

 

Serotonin, Dopamine, Norephinepherine, and the most important Glutamate are the chemicals that primarily manage your CNS. We know that if to much glutamate can lead to cell death, and what we have all done is stopped the suppression and let loose a death spiral of cells within our CNS. I don't have have in your face symptoms anymore, but I do have sensitivities; I think I have healed mostly from the withdrawals, and the Gaba related issues. Its the damage from the Glutamate that still haunts me. This only leads me to believe that its my CNS that I am healing, not my gaba receptors and this totally changes my outlook on decisions I take. 

 

I am not in post recovery withdrawals. I am in Post Trauma Recovery. The trauma being the damage that coming off of and withdrawing caused; The trauma that cannot be seen on a cellular level, but can be felt. The trauma that makes this a long road, and not an easy one to navigate. The positive is I worked in a hospital, I have seen Trauma and horror; But I have also seen those same people recover and go back to normal. My mind has shifted, and by doing this, so have my expectations. It can take years for a trauma victim to heal, it makes only sense that the trauma to our CNS will take years, But we will heal.

 

I wouldnt agree with this GABA and Glutamate therory at all. I think they upregulate pretty quickly. Covid,Corticosteroids and Antibiotics make EXACTLY THE SAME damage which manifests in EXACTLY THE SAME symptoms as benzo or AD WD. And they dont affect the same receptors as them. So I imagine CNS is damaged in much deeper level then just the receptors and glutamate/gaba.

I have been thinking about this issue a lot lately, I have been conceptualizing my symptoms from the lenses of GABA receptor damage caused by Benzo's but haven't been taking into consideration the bigger picture.

 

I always thought as my symptoms its effects as a cause of Gaba Down regulation then a backlash of Glutamate, this is true; What I had not considered is how much of our symptoms are caused by the suppression of Glutamate; These drugs Increase Gaba and therefor damage Gaba receptors, but at the same time they are suppressing glutamate, causing damage to glutamate receptors . The suppression of glutamate, and the dysfunction that is causes, speaks to my symptoms in a much more logical way than it being effected by Gaba.

 

Serotonin, Dopamine, Norephinepherine, and the most important Glutamate are the chemicals that primarily manage your CNS. We know that if to much glutamate can lead to cell death, and what we have all done is stopped the suppression and let loose a death spiral of cells within our CNS. I don't have have in your face symptoms anymore, but I do have sensitivities; I think I have healed mostly from the withdrawals, and the Gaba related issues. Its the damage from the Glutamate that still haunts me. This only leads me to believe that its my CNS that I am healing, not my gaba receptors and this totally changes my outlook on decisions I take. 

 

I am not in post recovery withdrawals. I am in Post Trauma Recovery. The trauma being the damage that coming off of and withdrawing caused; The trauma that cannot be seen on a cellular level, but can be felt. The trauma that makes this a long road, and not an easy one to navigate. The positive is I worked in a hospital, I have seen Trauma and horror; But I have also seen those same people recover and go back to normal. My mind has shifted, and by doing this, so have my expectations. It can take years for a trauma victim to heal, it makes only sense that the trauma to our CNS will take years, But we will heal.

 

I wouldnt agree with this GABA and Glutamate therory at all. I think they upregulate pretty quickly. Covid,Corticosteroids and Antibiotics make EXACTLY THE SAME damage which manifests in EXACTLY THE SAME symptoms as benzo or AD WD. And they dont affect the same receptors as them. So I imagine CNS is damaged in much deeper level then just the receptors and glutamate/gaba.

 

I think your statement was actually the point I was trying to convey, but I started rambling. The point I was trying to get to was that the GABA and GLUTIMATE are such a small part of the picture, and all the damage is done broadly to the CNS, and that's why they are so similar.  My idea has more to do with the unknown chaos from the glutamate storm, that leads to all the other trauma to the CNS. I defiantly conveyed it poorly with no real proof read.

 

Its the damage done by Glutamate that still haunts me. Should have been what I said.

Oh I get you. I mean, many people who are hurt by AD for example have a lot of physical pain. If it was only for GABA and Glutamate, taking benzos would help them. But they find no relief by taking benzos which promotes GABA and decreases glutamate. They feel the same after taking it regarding the pain. Only maybe anxiety subsides a bit. That proves its not about GABA at all

Oh I get you. I mean, many people who are hurt by AD for example have a lot of physical pain. If it was only for GABA and Glutamate, taking benzos would help them. But they find no relief by taking benzos which promotes GABA and decreases glutamate. They feel the same after taking it regarding the pain. Only maybe anxiety subsides a bit. That proves its not about GABA at all

 

Yes exactly, we think Gaba because that's the main action of the drug and the word that we hold onto to explain a very complex function. But gaba does not explained any of my symptoms 1 month after stopping the drug.

Is this I wonder why we should stabilise before getting rid of another med ? Although I’m still learning to benzo WD being worse

It’s well known come off all meds then the benzo last as it has such a long WD syndrome and such a powerful one, though I’ve not studied ADs

I still have amitriptaline to come off (20mg) but m to scared to while unstable, I did the baclofen and in someways maybe your right !? It set off what I already had more except for a wierd shiver thing that’s was new but didn’t last long