Valium dosing question maybe builder(?)

[[Buddie]]

Sorry to the OP, here we are again...

I had problems switching to liquid (vodka)... I dont expect anyone to have the exact same problems I did, Yet many people have reported issues, -Some I have seen as far back as 2013/14... There was also a little survey some time ago that had a number of negative responses... I also have had a number of people PM me saying same...
Whatever the reasons might be, I dont particularly care.. We dont need “debunking” nor to be told its BS... And I guess while it might be true that its “in some peoples heads” Bluntly stating it [...] so, [...] far from supportive for most people... I tend to be pretty quiet on it due to the potential fear factor, but that said, many of those I have spoken to about it are pretty clear and realistic or whateva people...

As I have said before, Often people are suffering and pinning their hopes on “Builders magic liquid” when it [...] only a tool in the box, and if it goes bad for them it can be a very dangerous time as those hopes are seemingly dashed on the rocks.. I would suggest we be very careful in what we say, and it has become my opinion that a slower/partial, or even a second attempt has shown very positive results with those that initially had problems...

Calling BS does not solve anything, I for one just get sick of bashing my head against Builders brick wall, thus perhaps in part, the possible illusion that “that view might be diminishing”.. And if infact it [...], It may be for the wrong reasons that are infact contrary to the supportive BB mission...

“Your Story [...] Not My Story..”

... Till next time...

Hi [...],

I agree with your concerns. The problem [...] not only theoretical, but the anecdotal evidence also suggests that titration using vodka [...] far from plain sailing, at least for some.

I'm sorry that you are having such a difficult time and were not able to make a transition to liquid microtapering.  It must have been really frustrating to try a different way of tapering that you hoped would be better and have it not work out.  I agree that everyone [...] different and we each have to find the method that works best for us.  I think we all are suffering, but to different extents.  In some case it may be the difference between a sprained finger and a traumatically amputated arm.

I don't think [...] or anyone else has ever claimed that liquid tapering [...] magical--only that it allows you taper by a much smaller amount with less sxs than cut and hold-often quite a bit less  This has certainly been the case with me.  Dry-cutting Valium became too painful and incapacitating when I got down to a certain level.  Liquid microtapering has allowed me to keep tapering with significantly less SXS than I was experiencing when I was dry tapering.

For all of this criticism of [...], I don't see anyone who provides anywhere close to as much help and information as he does.

I agree that [...] has gone to extraordinary lengths in his attempts to help fellow travellers. I fully acknowledge that - you make a fair comment. But there [...] also a distinct lack of nuance in how he describes the method he used or advises. The general tone has not been one of discussion. Rather, there has been a great deal of imparting opinion and ideas as though they are 'truths'. We cannot allow that to go unchallenged. To do so would be against the whole ethos of BB, as a peer-support discussion space.

[[Buddie]]

 Why [...] BB so committed to discouraging/intimidating folks from using this simple way to do what [...] almost always a more comfortable way to discontinue benzo use?

1) I have read literally hundreds of pages (PDLs, mfgr's professional disclosures, solvent research, etc) and I have never read a single word that suggests that a mg of liquid benzo [...] pharmaceutically,  medically or metabolically  any different than a mg of tablet benzo.  Not a single PDL ever suggests that the dosing instructions (other than the physical mechanics of drinking a liquid vs swallowing a tablet) should  any different for a liquid  than a tablet.  Never a word that the dosing protocol (size, frequency, timing, etc) are any different.  Never a caution that a liquid might have a different effect.


And anecdotally, both my (highly competetant) GP, and my very knowledgeable pharmacist assured me at the outset that 1mg of liquid diazepam was exactly the same as 1mg of tablet diazepam (other than the physical form)
 
And BTW, they both told me the active ingredient uniformity, and dose-to-dose constistency will be much better with liquid.  5mls of Rx liquid will always contain exactly 5mgs of diazepam, but a 5 mg tablet might range from 4.75mg to 5.25mg.  (The US Pharmacopia/FDA standards for dry tablets are actually much broader than that!)

2) And I remember from high school chemistry (and I don't think the physical laws of the universe have changed)…

When a dry substance [...] dissolved in a solvent, its physical structure [...] changed (from a discrete particle to a uniformly distributed liquid), but its chemical composition remains unchanged.  So chemically, 1mg of diazepam dissolved in 2ml of vodka or PG [...] still chemically the same as 1mg of dry diazepam  (And there [...] extensive published research on the solvency ratios, including a chart and citations in the BB archives.)

And diluting a solution only changes the concentration ratio, again, it will NOT change the chemical structure of the uderlying ingredients.

[...] a "home-brew" liquid benzo as good as the Rx alternative?  Probably not.  But it's definitely "good enough"!


1mg of benzo = 1mg of benzo.

And no one here on BB has ever submitted a shred of  validated evidence to the contrary.

[[Buddie]]

I think you guys are scaring everybody to death in here with this discussion, including me.

I started vodka taper, because Milk didn't work for me. And now that's possibly bad?

I can't read the whole texts at the moment, my focus [...] too bad.

Why would vodka taper be bad?

[[Buddie]]

[...],

I do not have time to address all this now. But I strongly suggest you make a study of bioavailability. Yes, 1mg [...] 1mg. But that [...] not whole story. Blood levels do not vary between brands of pills simply because of differences in dosage of the active ingredient. They also vary due to bioavailability. Converting to a liquid probably incurs even greater changes to bioavailability. Then there are issues around stability with home brew formulation. I do not understand how you can dismiss these potential problems as non-existent when there [...] a whole branch of chemistry dedicated to their study.

[[Buddie]]

[...],

I do not have time to address all this now. But I strongly suggest you make a study of bioavailability. Yes, 1mg [...] 1mg. But that [...] not whole story. Blood levels do not vary between brands of pills simply because of differences in dosage of the active ingredient. They also vary due to bioavailability. Converting to a liquid probably incurs even greater changes to bioavailability. Then there are issues around stability with home brew formulation. I do not understand how you can dismiss these potential problems as non-existent when there [...] a whole branch of chemistry dedicated to their study.

Let me just ask you directly, [...].

I'm using tablets of 2 mg, 1 mg, 0,5 mg, 0,2 mg, 0,1 mg. From taperingstrips.

Now I'm at 3,3 mg.

I take the following pills. 2 mg, 1 mg, and 0,2 mg.

Then I get 0,1 mg. Crush it, add 1 ml vodka. Add 49 mm water. Take 5 ml out every day.

Could you please explain me if there would be dangers in that? In any of that? Just for my personal reassurance?

Thank you!

[[Buddie]]

I think you guys are scaring everybody to death in here with this discussion, including me.

I started vodka taper, because Milk didn't work for me. And now that's possibly bad?

I can't read the whole texts at the moment, my focus [...] too bad.

Why would vodka taper be bad?

I sympathise, [...]. But I don't suppose that you are suggesting that I should instead ignore my genuine and serious concerns about what [...] being suggested as 'fact', when it appears to not be based on any science, research or study. It [...] anecdote at best, and the anecdotes are mixed. Suppose if I had posted nothing, and you later experienced problems and I replied with, 'yeah, I was concerned about the advice given, but I didn't wish to upset anyone by voicing my concerns'. I'd rightly be considered a cowardly asshole.

[[Buddie]]

[...],

I do not have time to address all this now. But I strongly suggest you make a study of bioavailability. Yes, 1mg [...] 1mg. But that [...] not whole story. Blood levels do not vary between brands of pills simply because of differences in dosage of the active ingredient. They also vary due to bioavailability. Converting to a liquid probably incurs even greater changes to bioavailability. Then there are issues around stability with home brew formulation. I do not understand how you can dismiss these potential problems as non-existent when there [...] a whole branch of chemistry dedicated to their study.

Let me just ask you directly, [...].

I'm using tablets of 2 mg, 1 mg, 0,5 mg, 0,2 mg, 0,1 mg. From taperingstrips.

Now I'm at 3,3 mg.

I take the following pills. 2 mg, 1 mg, and 0,2 mg.

Then I get 0,1 mg. Crush it, add 1 ml vodka. Add 49 mm water. Take 5 ml out every day.

Could you please explain me if there would be dangers in that? In any of that? Just for my personal reassurance?

Thank you!

In that particular narrow example, where you are titrating a dose of 0.1mg out of a total dose of 3.3mg Valium(?) - there [...] probably no real risk nor benefit. Even if the whole 0.1mg [...] rendered ineffective, it only represents a loss of 3% of your total dose. Valium has a relatively long half-life, so any reduction made to the dose occurs gradually over some days (up to a week or two). This [...] why for many Valium [...] the ideal benzo to use for a taper.

I should also point out, you added no details of your taper, dose, particular benzo, etc. to your opening post. You have no signature line. You also edited out all content from your Intro post from when you joined the forum, thus removing any details you might have included there. Irrespective, your particular circumstances do not affect the argument. And at the same time, if I now understand your taper regimen correctly, you do not need to titrate your pills anyway - it will likely only complicate and make less certain what you are already doing. The use of tapering strips would seem ideal. Why monkey about with it?

[[Buddie]]

[...],

I do not have time to address all this now. But I strongly suggest you make a study of bioavailability. Yes, 1mg [...] 1mg. But that [...] not whole story. Blood levels do not vary between brands of pills simply because of differences in dosage of the active ingredient. They also vary due to bioavailability. Converting to a liquid probably incurs even greater changes to bioavailability. Then there are issues around stability with home brew formulation. I do not understand how you can dismiss these potential problems as non-existent when there [...] a whole branch of chemistry dedicated to their study.

Let me just ask you directly, [...].

I'm using tablets of 2 mg, 1 mg, 0,5 mg, 0,2 mg, 0,1 mg. From taperingstrips.

Now I'm at 3,3 mg.

I take the following pills. 2 mg, 1 mg, and 0,2 mg.

Then I get 0,1 mg. Crush it, add 1 ml vodka. Add 49 mm water. Take 5 ml out every day.

Could you please explain me if there would be dangers in that? In any of that? Just for my personal reassurance?

Thank you!

It that particular narrow example, where you are titrating a dose of 0.1mg out of a total dose of 3.3mg Valium ?) - there [...] probably no real risk nor benefit. Even if the whole 0.1mg [...] rendered ineffective, it only represents a loss of 3% of your total dose. Valium has a relatively long half-life, so any reduction made to the dose occurs gradually over some days (up to a week or two). This [...] why for many Valium [...] the ideal benzo to use for a taper.

I should also point out, you added no details of your taper, dose, particular benzo, etc. to your opening post. You have no signature line. You also edited out all content from your Intro post from when you joined the forum, thus removing any details you might have included there. Irrespective, your particular circumstances do not affect the argument. And at the same time, if I now understand your taper regimen correctly, you do not need to titrate your pills anyway - it will likely only complicate and make less certain what you are already doing. The use of tapering strips would seem ideal. Why monkey about with it?

I removed my opening post because benzobuddies removed too much info to be valueable. I will be doing a lot against benzo's, but never mind that now. (Edit: I will write my story again, and I will add my signature again. Hopefully benzobuddies won't delete anything  )

The hits of 0,1 mg are hitting me too hard.

So if I take 0,1 mg, make a solution out of it with 50ml, take out 5ml, I will be tapering of with 0,01 instead of 0,1. Why would that not work?

[[Buddie]]

I removed my opening post because benzobuddies removed too much info to be valueable. I will be doing a lot against benzo's, but never mind that now.

The hits of 0,1 mg are hitting me too hard.

So if I take 0,1 mg, make a solution out of it with 50ml, take out 5ml, I will be tapering of with 0,01 instead of 0,1. Why would that not work?

You are missing the point. In your very narrow example, it probably will make no difference how inaccurate it might be, because you are titrating a 0.1mg pill out of a total dose of 3.3mg. That equates to just 3% of your dose. So even if the whole 0.1mg [...] rendered ineffective, it has only a marginal effect upon the total dose you absorb. However, if your dose was, for example, 5mg/day, and all you had were 5mg pills, you would be titrating all your dose. Now, if the whole dose was rendered ineffective, you'd be going from 5mg to zero in a single step - obviously, this [...] not recommended. Maybe you consider that an unlikely occurrence. Maybe it [...], maybe not. It [...] not possible to determine how stability might be negatively impacted. Instead, suppose any of these things occurred:

• Only part of the benzodiazepine went into solution because it had reached saturation point, and the remainder lay on the bottom of the container?
  
  
• Or, maybe you spot this and swill around the contents, thus creating a concentration gradient of benzo in the liquid (thus, seriously impacting your ability to extract an accurate dose)
  
  
• Suppose that the bioavailability [...] quite low with the pill, and by making into a liquid, bioavailability shoots up from 0.45 to 0.9*. You have increased the AUC by 100%, doubling the dose.
  
  
• Instead of the pill gradually disintegrating over an hour or two, gradually being absorbed, this step [...] effectively bypassed and instead absorption [...] rapidly increased, giving rise to a higher C_max and increased risk of interdose withdrawal symptoms.
  
  
• Some of the pill might not have been absorbed at all when in pill form (read my previous post about penetration rate, excipients, etc.), so the bioavailability might significantly increase if it [...] made into a liquid
  
  
• There [...] significant affect upon the stability of the active ingredient, thus decreasing the dose for a given volume.

* I should have pointed out before in my reply to [...], although 1mg [...] 1mg, the stated 'dose' actually takes into account bioavailability. So, an IV dose really does contain the amount stated (because all the dose [...] considered to be 'available'). However, you usually cannot expect the whole dose of a pill to be absorbed (lower bioavailability). So, there [...] more active ingredient in the pill to account for this effect. And, different brands will compensate by varying amounts because of their differing bioavailability profiles.

These are just the potential problems which immediately spring to an untrained mind. I am sure there are many others. Some of those effects will tend to cancel (work in opposite directions), while others will tend compliment (make the situation worse). There [...] no way for us to know what will actually happen, to what degree, and it will vary depending upon the pill brand and the specific modifications carried out on the pill. But you could potentially vastly increase the bioavailability and increase the speed of absorption (both working to increase peak blood levels of the drug). Conversely, you could saturate the alcohol and the benzodiazepine [...] not fully soluble anyway (so sedimentation occurs) and you attempt to swill the contents, but this induces a concentration gradient and you sample form a relatively low point of concentration. These would all work together to decrease the dose. Or a mixture. Who knows. I do not. And until people start providing actual citations, I will advise caution. So far, no one here has even demonstrated that they have even heard of pharmacokinetics, bioavailability, etc. I think if they had, they would have been far more cautions in their claims.

All this [...] from a layman's perspective. I have no training in these fields. But I think I understand just enough to know that I know nothing. I hope one of the pharmacists or pharmacologists here (or those with training in these fields) see these posts and jump in. The problem I have [...] people stating absolutes about this when there are none. To establish absolutes, there would need to be experiments, tests and studies. There really [...] no sense in attempting to dismiss a whole scientific field with seat-of-your-pants proclamations of certainty and gut feelings as though they are fact.

[[Buddie]]

I removed my opening post because benzobuddies removed too much info to be valueable. I will be doing a lot against benzo's, but never mind that now.

The hits of 0,1 mg are hitting me too hard.

So if I take 0,1 mg, make a solution out of it with 50ml, take out 5ml, I will be tapering of with 0,01 instead of 0,1. Why would that not work?

You are missing the point. In your very narrow example, it probably will make no difference how inaccurate it might be, because you are titrating a 0.1mg pill out of a total dose of 3.3mg. That equates to just 3% of your dose. So even if the whole 0.1mg [...] rendered ineffective, it has only a marginal effect upon the total dose you absorb. However, if your dose was, for example, 5mg/day, and all you had were 5mg pills, you would be titrating all your dose. Now, if the whole dose was rendered ineffective, you'd be going from 5mg to zero in a single step - obviously, this [...] not recommended. Maybe you consider that an unlikely occurrence. Maybe it [...], maybe not. It [...] not possible to determine how stability might be negatively impacted. Instead, suppose any of these things occurred:

• Only part of the benzodiazepine went into solution because it had reached saturation point, and the remainder lay on the bottom of the container?
  
  
• Or, maybe you spot this and swill around the contents, thus creating a concentration gradient of benzo in the liquid (thus, seriously impacting your ability to extract an accurate dose)
  
  
• Suppose that the bioavailability [...] quite low with the pill, and by making into a liquid, bioavailability shoots up from 0.45 to 0.9*. You have increased the AUC by 100%, doubling the dose.
  
  
• Instead of the pill gradually disintegrating over an hour or two, gradually being absorbed, this step [...] effectively bypassed and instead absorption [...] rapidly increased, giving rise to a higher C_max and increased risk of interdose withdrawal symptoms.
  
  
• Some of the pill might not have been absorbed at all when in pill forum (read my previous post about penetration rate, excipients, etc.), so the bioavailability might significantly increase if it [...] made into a liquid
  
  
• There [...] significant affect upon the stability of the active ingredient, thus decreasing the dose for a given volume.

* I should have pointed out before in my reply to [...], although 1mg [...] 1mg, the stated 'dose' actually takes into account bioavailability. So, an IV dose really does contain the amount stated (because all the dose [...] considered to be 'available'). However, you usually cannot expect the whole dose of a pill to be absorbed (lower bioavailability). So, there [...] more active ingredient in the pill to account for this effect. And, different brands will compensate by varying amounts because of their differing bioavailability profiles.

These are just the potential problems which immediately spring to an untrained mind. I am sure there are many others. Some of those effects will tend to cancel (work in opposite directions), while others will tend compliment (make the situation worse). There [...] no way for us to know actually what will happen, to what degree, and it will vary depending upon the pill brand, and the specific modifications carried out on the pill. But you could potentially vastly increase the bioavailability and increase the speed of absorption (both working to increase peak blood levels of the drug). Conversely, you could saturate the alcohol and the benzodiazepine [...] not fully soluble anyway (so sedimentation occurs) and you attempt to swill the contents, but this induces a concentration gradient and you sample form a relatively low point of concentration. These would all work together to decrease the dose. Or a mixture. Who knows. I do not. And until people start providing actual citations, I will advise caution. So far, no one here has even demonstrated that they have even heard of pharmacokinetics, bioavailability, etc. I think if they had, they would have been far more cautions in their claims.

All this [...] from a layman's perspective. I have no training in these fields. But I think I understand just enough to know that I know nothing. I hope one of the pharmacists or pharmacologists here (or those with training in these fields) see these posts and jump in. The problem I have [...] people stating absolutes about this when there are none. To establish absolutes, there would need to be experiments, tests and studies. There really [...] no sense in attempting to dismiss a whole scientific field with seat-of-your-pants proclamations of certainty and gut feelings as though they are fact.

Ah man, now I really don't know what to do anymore. I thought my plan was brilliant

So I guess you are saying I should just stick to the taperingstrips reducing with 0,1 mg?