Author Topic: Valium dosing question maybe builder(?)  (Read 3351 times)

[Buddie]

Re: Valium dosing question maybe builder(?)
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2019, 12:35:14 pm »
Whether you dose 2 or 3 times a day isn't going to make any difference. Your blood levels aren't going to vary enough to have any real effect.

And whether it's pills or liquid, 1mg diazepam [...] 1mg of diazepam.  Your body won't know how it got to your stomach.  I did a pills + liquid taper, because I too was intimidated by all the BS I read here on BB.  If I had to do it al over, I would have just done liquid, for the convenience. 

It's whatever your comfortable with.  If you like the tablets + liquid, then stay on  it.  If you think all liquid would be more convenient, then switch.

1mg diazepam [...] 1mg diazepam.

Specifically, what 'BS' here at BB? Really - I'd like to know!

OK, I found it.

Surely you must know for a long time there was a proliferation of posts here on BB that one could not simply begin taking a liquid benzo, that it was somehow metabolized differently, and 1) that one needed to gradually transition to liquid, and 2)  that some folks would probably not be able to take a liquid benzo.  Even I followed what seemed to be the "generally recommended" procedure of "testing" liquid doses for a trial period before actually starting to taper.  (Yes, I ignored Jana's advice, and bought into the paranoia here on BB.)  BTW, Jana once banned me from BDR because of my activity here on BB.  ::)

[...], I'm not suggesting that was in any way an "official" BB position, but it certainly was the state of "conventional wisdom". 

And there are tons of BS shared here on BB every day, because that's just the way message boards work.
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[Buddie]

Re: Valium dosing question maybe builder(?)
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2019, 01:08:57 pm »


OK, I found it.

Surely you must know for a long time there was a proliferation of posts here on BB that one could not simply begin taking a liquid benzo, that it was somehow metabolized differently, and 1) that one needed to gradually transition to liquid, and 2)  that some folks would probably not be able to take a liquid benzo.  Even I followed what seemed to be the "generally recommended" procedure of "testing" liquid doses for a trial period before actually starting to taper.  (Yes, I ignored Jana's advice, and bought into the paranoia here on BB.)  BTW, Jana once banned me from BDR because of my activity here on BB.  ::)

[...], I'm not suggesting that was in any way an "official" BB position, but it certainly was the state of "conventional wisdom". 

And there are tons of BS shared here on BB every day, because that's just the way message boards work.
[/quote]

Okay, so, changing from pills to liquid or back and forth doesn’t seem to matter.  I was taking 5mg/.7mg/5mg daily.  I switched to 3.575/3.575/3.575 daily for the last two/three days before posting here.  I would love to only take 2 doses.  Since I just switched them from two and a very small one to three even one, can I simply switch to just two?  I know supposedly some people have issues.  I listened to you when I switched my middle dose to liquid and didn’t wait to start tapering.  I had no ill effects.  The liquid isn’t really the problem.  Now, I’m curious about how I can get to two doses since I messed up and made it three. Gradually or simply switch? Thanks.  Not trying to add to the BS, trying to debunk it.  Everyone says to do it gradual.  I know you’d know. Thanks.
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[Buddie]

Re: Valium dosing question maybe builder(?)
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2019, 01:41:28 pm »
Even at the shortest end of the scale, diazepam has an 18 hour half-life.  The average half-life [...] over 2 days.  So the implications of that are variations of your intra-day dosing schedule are unlikely to have any real effect.  Diazepam [...] commonly Rx'd 2X/day dosing, and that [...] NOT because of concerns about level blood concentrations.  The reason for the usual 2X dosing [...] to spread the powerful sedating/depressant effect of the med.


So it's extremely unlikely that switching from 3X/day to 2X day will have any effect whatsoever (other than being more convenient!)

During my DLMT, I started at the usual 2X day, but varied the distribution widely, solely based on convenience.  And at 3mg, I went to 1X/day, and all liquid.  I never felt any effects from varying my doses throughout my taper.
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[Buddie]

Re: Valium dosing question maybe builder(?)
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2019, 02:14:36 pm »
Even at the shortest end of the scale, diazepam has an 18 hour half-life.  The average half-life [...] over 2 days.  So the implications of that are variations of your intra-day dosing schedule are unlikely to have any real effect.  Diazepam [...] commonly Rx'd 2X/day dosing, and that [...] NOT because of concerns about level blood concentrations.  The reason for the usual 2X dosing [...] to spread the powerful sedating/depressant effect of the med.


So it's extremely unlikely that switching from 3X/day to 2X day will have any effect whatsoever (other than being more convenient!)

During my DLMT, I started at the usual 2X day, but varied the distribution widely, solely based on convenience.  And at 3mg, I went to 1X/day, and all liquid.  I never felt any effects from varying my doses throughout my taper.

Thank you. 
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium dosing question maybe builder(?)
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2019, 04:23:03 am »
Sorry to the OP, here we are again...

I had problems switching to liquid (vodka)... I dont expect anyone to have the exact same problems I did, Yet many people have reported issues, -Some I have seen as far back as 2013/14... There was also a little survey some time ago that had a number of negative responses... I also have had a number of people PM me saying same...
Whatever the reasons might be, I dont particularly care.. We dont need “debunking” nor to be told its BS... And I guess while it might be true that its “in some peoples heads” Bluntly stating it [...] so, [...] far from supportive for most people... I tend to be pretty quiet on it due to the potential fear factor, but that said, many of those I have spoken to about it are pretty clear and realistic or whateva people...

As I have said before, Often people are suffering and pinning their hopes on “Builders magic liquid” when it [...] only a tool in the box, and if it goes bad for them it can be a very dangerous time as those hopes are seemingly dashed on the rocks.. I would suggest we be very careful in what we say, and it has become my opinion that a slower/partial, or even a second attempt has shown very positive results with those that initially had problems...

Calling BS does not solve anything, I for one just get sick of bashing my head against Builders brick wall, thus perhaps in part, the possible illusion that “that view might be diminishing”.. And if infact it [...], It may be for the wrong reasons that are infact contrary to the supportive BB mission...

“Your Story [...] Not My Story..”

... Till next time...
:(


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[Buddie]

Re: Valium dosing question maybe builder(?)
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2019, 06:58:55 am »

I had problems switching to liquid (vodka)... I dont expect anyone to have the exact same problems I did, Yet many people have reported issues, -Some I have seen as far back as 2013/14... There was also a little survey some time ago that had a number of negative responses... I also have had a number of people PM me saying same...
Whatever the reasons might be, I dont particularly care.. We dont need “debunking” nor to be told its BS... And I guess while it might be true that its “in some peoples heads” Bluntly stating it [...] so, [...] far from supportive for most people... I tend to be pretty quiet on it due to the potential fear factor, but that said, many of those I have spoken to about it are pretty clear and realistic or whateva people...

As I have said before, Often people are suffering and pinning their hopes on “Builders magic liquid” when it [...] only a tool in the box, and if it goes bad for them it can be a very dangerous time as those hopes are seemingly dashed on the rocks.. I would suggest we be very careful in what we say, and it has become my opinion that a slower/partial, or even a second attempt has shown very positive results with those that initially had problems...

Calling BS does not solve anything, I for one just get sick of bashing my head against Builders brick wall, thus perhaps in part, the possible illusion that “that view might be diminishing”.. And if infact it [...], It may be for the wrong reasons that are infact contrary to the supportive BB mission...

“Your Story [...] Not My Story..”

I'm sorry that you are having such a difficult time and were not able to make a transition to liquid microtapering.  It must have been really frustrating to try a different way of tapering that you hoped would be better and have it not work out.  I agree that everyone [...] different and we each have to find the method that works best for us.  I think we all are suffering, but to different extents.  In some case it may be the difference between a sprained finger and a traumatically amputated arm.

I don't think [...] or anyone else has ever claimed that liquid tapering [...] magical--only that it allows you taper by a much smaller amount with less sxs than cut and hold-often quite a bit less  This has certainly been the case with me.  Dry-cutting Valium became too painful and incapacitating when I got down to a certain level.  Liquid microtapering has allowed me to keep tapering with significantly less SXS than I was experiencing when I was dry tapering.

For all of this criticism of [...], I don't see anyone who provides anywhere close to as much help and information as he does.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 07:29:03 am by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium dosing question maybe builder(?)
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2019, 11:43:48 am »

I had problems switching to liquid (vodka)... I dont expect anyone to have the exact same problems I did, Yet many people have reported issues, -Some I have seen as far back as 2013/14... There was also a little survey some time ago that had a number of negative responses... I also have had a number of people PM me saying same...
Whatever the reasons might be, I dont particularly care.. We dont need “debunking” nor to be told its BS... And I guess while it might be true that its “in some peoples heads” Bluntly stating it [...] so, [...] far from supportive for most people... I tend to be pretty quiet on it due to the potential fear factor, but that said, many of those I have spoken to about it are pretty clear and realistic or whateva people...

As I have said before, Often people are suffering and pinning their hopes on “Builders magic liquid” when it [...] only a tool in the box, and if it goes bad for them it can be a very dangerous time as those hopes are seemingly dashed on the rocks.. I would suggest we be very careful in what we say, and it has become my opinion that a slower/partial, or even a second attempt has shown very positive results with those that initially had problems...

Calling BS does not solve anything, I for one just get sick of bashing my head against Builders brick wall, thus perhaps in part, the possible illusion that “that view might be diminishing”.. And if infact it [...], It may be for the wrong reasons that are infact contrary to the supportive BB mission...

“Your Story [...] Not My Story..”

I'm sorry that you are having such a difficult time and were not able to make a transition to liquid microtapering.  It must have been really frustrating to try a different way of tapering that you hoped would be better and have it not work out.  I agree that everyone [...] different and we each have to find the method that works best for us.  I think we all are suffering, but to different extents.  In some case it may be the difference between a sprained finger and a traumatically amputated arm.

I don't think [...] or anyone else has ever claimed that liquid tapering [...] magical--only that it allows you taper by a much smaller amount with less sxs than cut and hold-often quite a bit less  This has certainly been the case with me.  Dry-cutting Valium became too painful and incapacitating when I got down to a certain level.  Liquid microtapering has allowed me to keep tapering with significantly less SXS than I was experiencing when I was dry tapering.

For all of this criticism of [...], I don't see anyone who provides anywhere close to as much help and information as he does.
Yeah thanks, but im over a year off valium, and it wasnt a biggie that liquid wasnt for me at that time, -Pill splitting worked out quite well... But yes, Im aware of the principals of a DLMT, and that many people find it works quite well..  Im glad it did for you also.. That was not my point..
(This subject has a long history)


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[Buddie]

Re: Valium dosing question maybe builder(?)
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2019, 02:01:30 pm »
Whether you dose 2 or 3 times a day isn't going to make any difference. Your blood levels aren't going to vary enough to have any real effect.

And whether it's pills or liquid, 1mg diazepam [...] 1mg of diazepam.  Your body won't know how it got to your stomach.  I did a pills + liquid taper, because I too was intimidated by all the BS I read here on BB.  If I had to do it al over, I would have just done liquid, for the convenience. 

It's whatever your comfortable with.  If you like the tablets + liquid, then stay on  it.  If you think all liquid would be more convenient, then switch.

1mg diazepam [...] 1mg diazepam.

Specifically, what 'BS' here at BB? Really - I'd like to know!

Seems like you missed my post, [...].

Actually, I now have two questions for you:

1) To what 'BS at BB' do you refer?

2) Can you provide a citation in support of your argument that 'home brew' liquids possess an identical pharmacokinetic profile to regular prescribed pills? Inquiring minds must know!

Yes, I guess I missed that post. sorry.

The BS [...] all of the precautions I read here on BB that one must "adapt" or "gradually transition"  to liquid, that it somehow [...] metabolized differently.  A concept completely unsupported by any med or pharma science.  (...and thankfully,  that view actually seems to be slowly diminishing here on BB  ;))

I note that you have still failed to provide a citation. You know, as the party making the claim, it really [...] incumbent upon you to back up your claims with verifiable and reliable sources. Can you not provide even a single source to support your claims? That's rather discouraging, since you have repeatedly made similar unequivocal statements about 'home brew' liquids being pharmacologically identical to the pills from which they have been formed.

As for, "a concept completely unsupported by any med or pharma science" - that a very strange statement for you to make. Your claim that it [...] a "concept completely unsupported by any med or pharma science", [...] counter to the science of pharmacokinetics. Specifically, how have you determined that by grinding up a pill does not effect:

  • Disintegration
    • Penetration Rate
    • Excipients
    • Degree of tablet compression
    • Coatings (particularly in extended/slow release pills)
  • Dissolution
    • Diffusion Coefficient
    • Surface area of the particles
    • Diffusion area thickness
    • solubility
In addition to the above:
  • how [...] Cmax affected by turning the pills into a liquid?
  • How [...] stability of the active ingredients affected?
  • How have you mitigated against alcohol evaportaion - which will affect concentration and therefore dose for a given volume?
  • How have you determined the saturation point for each benzodiazepine for a given volume of alcohol?
  • How [...] the saturation point affected by the addition of each of the possible fillers included in the pill?
  • What studies are there to determine the extended effects of vodka upon each benzodiazepine?

I am no pharmacologist, but I understand that the delivery system employed certainly affects bioavailability. It [...] not just the the amount of the active ingredient, but everything else included in the medicine. And with pills, even how the pill [...] constructed. On the one hand there [...] your word that the two delivery systems are essentially analogous, and on the other, I have the whole field of pharmacokinetics, science and stuff.

Quote
A simple google search for the Rx  liquid benzos will show that the each contains 3 common ingredients, 1) a benzo, 2) a solvent (alcohol or propylene glycol) and 3)water.  Different formulations will also have some stablizers, extenders, colorants, flavorants, etc, the add to its commercial acceptability, but really don't effect it's functionality.  The common solvents, alcohol or PG, will dissolve the benzo into a uniformly distributed solution, and water will dilute to a more convenient concentration.

Yeah. None of that answers any of my concerns.

[...], please forgive my slightly sarcastic tone. I do actually and honestly appreciate that you have been working very hard to help fellow members. And it [...] OK to discuss titration, what you did, and what may or may not work. After all, BB [...] a primarily a discussion platform. But I see no basis for your unequivocal statements about there being no difference in the absorption profile between a properly manufactured pill and a 'home brew' formulation. On the contrary, there [...] a huge body of evidence and research to suggest that the absorption profile will change, which necessarily affects Cmax, and - unless you can prove me wrong - we have little to no idea of the effects of your 'home brew' upon bioavailability. This does not prevent individuals from doing what they feel they must, given the constraints they face with being able to obtain their benzodiazepine [...] smaller, more manageable doses. But when discussing this stuff, we must be transparent in acknowledging what we do not know.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 03:47:56 pm by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium dosing question maybe builder(?)
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2019, 02:04:21 pm »
Whether you dose 2 or 3 times a day isn't going to make any difference. Your blood levels aren't going to vary enough to have any real effect.

And whether it's pills or liquid, 1mg diazepam [...] 1mg of diazepam.  Your body won't know how it got to your stomach.  I did a pills + liquid taper, because I too was intimidated by all the BS I read here on BB.  If I had to do it al over, I would have just done liquid, for the convenience. 

It's whatever your comfortable with.  If you like the tablets + liquid, then stay on  it.  If you think all liquid would be more convenient, then switch.

1mg diazepam [...] 1mg diazepam.

Specifically, what 'BS' here at BB? Really - I'd like to know!

OK, I found it.

Surely you must know for a long time there was a proliferation of posts here on BB that one could not simply begin taking a liquid benzo, that it was somehow metabolized differently, and 1) that one needed to gradually transition to liquid, and 2)  that some folks would probably not be able to take a liquid benzo.  Even I followed what seemed to be the "generally recommended" procedure of "testing" liquid doses for a trial period before actually starting to taper.  (Yes, I ignored Jana's advice, and bought into the paranoia here on BB.)  BTW, Jana once banned me from BDR because of my activity here on BB.  ::)

[...], I'm not suggesting that was in any way an "official" BB position, but it certainly was the state of "conventional wisdom". 

And there are tons of BS shared here on BB every day, because that's just the way message boards work.

As per last post, really. And, although not an 'official position'* as you put it, many other and I have posted concerns that changing the delivery system will have effects upon how the medicine [...] absorbed.

* This might change.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium dosing question maybe builder(?)
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2019, 02:42:27 pm »
Even at the shortest end of the scale, diazepam has an 18 hour half-life.  The average half-life [...] over 2 days.  So the implications of that are variations of your intra-day dosing schedule are unlikely to have any real effect.  Diazepam [...] commonly Rx'd 2X/day dosing, and that [...] NOT because of concerns about level blood concentrations.  The reason for the usual 2X dosing [...] to spread the powerful sedating/depressant effect of the med.


So it's extremely unlikely that switching from 3X/day to 2X day will have any effect whatsoever (other than being more convenient!)

During my DLMT, I started at the usual 2X day, but varied the distribution widely, solely based on convenience.  And at 3mg, I went to 1X/day, and all liquid.  I never felt any effects from varying my doses throughout my taper.

Please refer to an old post of mine. It provides the math required to estimate the change in blood levels over time, based upon assumed half-life:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=6177.0

By the way, for diazepam (if we include the active metabolites - which we should for our purposes), the lower half-life value [...] usually stated as 36 hours.

Let's assume that an individual metabolizes diazepam (Valium) at the extreme fast end. And let's also assume that a dose [...] taken twice per day, and blood levels have reached steady state (after extended regular use - some weeks or more).

So:
Half-life: 36 hours
Time between doses: 12 hours

12/36=0.333

0.50.333=0.7937

That's a drop in blood levels of just over 20%.

Now, let's try that with a 8h interval:
Half-life: 36 hours
Time between doses: 8h

8/36=0.222

0.50.222=0.856

That's a drop of 14.4%

Let's assume a more realistic 48 hours half-life (it varies from individual to individual).
And the patient doses three times per day, 8 hours apart:

Half-life: 48 hours
Dosing interval: 8 hours

8/48=0.16666

0.50.16666=0.89

That's an 11% drop to blood levels. The above calculations take no account of the absorption profile, but that [...] a relatively minor effect.

Now, let's repeat the above, with the dose taken just twice per day:

Half-life: 48 hours
Dose interval: 12 hours

12/48=0.25

0.50.25=0.84

I think a 16% drop [...] a significant enough difference from 11% (and the difference would be slighter greater for those who metabolize benzodiazepine faster than the assumed 48hour half-life).

But it [...] more complicated than this. Since the total daily dose [...] now split into two rather than three doses, the Cmax value (maximum blood concentration) will rise. Though each dose [...] now 50% greater, maximum blood levels will not be 50% higher. This [...] because there [...] a greater fall in blood concentrations between doses, so it starts from a lower point. In short, blood levels oscillate a little more with the twice per day regimen, but the AUC (Area Under the Curve) -  that's the total amount of the drug absorbed - should remain unchanged.

I do not have time to attempt to work out (or approximate) the actual blood concentrations for a given, chronically administered dose. But I expect the above to be about right and good enough for our purposes. Besides, I expect there are utilities on the Net to allow members to better model what occurs, depending upon the assumed staring values.

I am not suggesting that for a long half-life benzidiazepine like diazepam switching a daily dosing regimen from three to two (or vise versa) will be a great shock (so long as the total dose for the day remains unchanged), but there will be an effect. For some, I expect the effect will be noticeable.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 09:50:51 am by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.