Vodka or Milk? Help with plan prep.

[[Buddie]]

[...],

Ignorance, arrogance or allegiance? Which one dictates your view on liquid titration and your steadfast hold on the Ashton manual? This is a question you need to ask yourself, I honestly do not care, pointing out your palpable hold on to an antiquated method.

[snip] 

[...], I have an offer for you. I am 100% serious. Would you sell BB and all your rights to it? Feel free to PM me to discuss.


[...],

While I agree with some things that you have written in your post, there are other things that give me pause. Using a different protocol as opposed to Ashton is ideal, however, what protocol are you referencing, your own? The patented one? An abridged version of both? Answer this for yourself, not for me.

My issue with your way of doing things, is that you do not have any idea of a persons history, other medications, you do not think about inducers & inhibitors, their current state of stability, etc... How things were explained to me, is the same way they were to you. We did not transition to liquid and commence to remove straight away, we held at the liquid dose for 2-3 weeks, unless someone did not follow the advise given. Math is only a small fraction of what a proper liquid taper is about, you know this, or you should remember the information you were given. There are quite a few member who have zero idea about titration, never having used an oral syringe or prepared a liquid medication, ever. It is not just like adding cream and sugar to ones coffee. I appreciate your effort at simplicity, it is not that simple for reasons stated above.

[snip]

Wow, a post that challenges [...] and [...] at the same time while offering to buy the Benzobuddy message board.

I suspect there is something with someone dating back to a time before I was on the board or active on the board, or some type of behind the scenes shenanigans.

Hi [...],

Pretty funny, hey.

[...] and I are OK. I am certainly less at odds with him than with those who come here from without to promote sham/baseless/obsessive/quack protocols. I am sure [...] is genuine in his aims - he has provided support at BB for a long time; I just need him to adhere to our rules and (hopefully) understand why we make these demands of members. Here is an explanation of the language we expect members to utilise here:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=25837.0

And from the forum rules:

Please adopt a non-prescriptive writing style. Relating your experiences, stating options, or posting suggestions of what other members might do are all welcome. However, advising members of what they should or must do is against the ethos of the BenzoBuddies Community. Nor should you attempt to 'diagnose' medical problems or suggest medical treatments to other members. This policy also applies to members with medical qualifications. A more detailed explanation of this policy can be found in our Guidelines Regarding the Giving of Medical Advice document.

We need to acknowledge what is unknown and what we do not know. Maybe I should make that more explicit (as it relates to 'claims') in our rules and documentation. But the principles are identical.

You are correct, there is history to this. For years, Jana Hill, who ran benzodetoxrecovery.com, demonised what the vast majority of people do - that is, taper via pill-splitting - by referring to it as 'cut & suffer'. Worse, some of her members then started participating at BB, promoting her protocols, and would regularly refer to pill-splitting as 'cut & suffer' at this forum. I had already largely retired from providing support and from any kind of regular participation at BB by this stage, but I returned (as I must from time to time) to tackle these matters and to comment on Hill's ridiculous attempts to patent titration (I will write more about this soon). Then some time later, (in a post at BB) Hill also threatened to doxx a BB member. So, yeah, there is a backstory.

There are two main historical threads relating to these matters.

I link to my first post in this thread, but there is a long back and forth after this, where I make additional comments. But the bulk of the important stuff is in this single post:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=72390.msg973423;topicseen#msg973423

Then there is this thread where a member reports (apparently incorrectly) that Hill had reinstated. Hill even joins in and threatens a BB member with doxxing:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=159823.0

Hill is thin-skinned. We have members of BB banned from her forum simply reporting that they had not reacted very well to her protocols. There are even more bizarre reports of paranoid bannings.

As to your previous post:

Cut out the 'cut & suffer' nonsense. It is just more scaremongering. The vast majority of people quit benzodiazepines without substituting for a longer acting benzodiazepine or making home brew liquids. They simply split their pills.

If that is the case then why did Dr. Ashton establish her protocol of having people switch over to the longer acting Valium from the shorter acting benzos that they were taking?

The reason is that the Valium has a longer half-life and works better against interdose withdrawal, and it was easier to taper with because it was available in smaller comparative doses.   

Many people have tapered on faster acting benzos.  This is largely due to necessity because their doctors would uncooperative and would not allow them to crossover to valium, much less a dose of valium that would allow them to stabilize.  Or for whatever reason they chose to stay with their shorter acting benzos.  Many of these people were forced to taper with shorter acting benzos, often at doses where they were not stable.   There are many accounts of this, and tales of all types of suffering related to this on the board, as well as people having a great deal of trouble tapering by cutting pills to the point where they are debilitated.  This is hardly a testimony to the process.

I did fine with dry tapering from 20 mg of Valium down to about 7.5mg.  But then it became increasingly difficult with me having to often wait a month or more between .5 mg cuts.  I was slicing 2 mg valium pills into quarters--which was the smallest that I could accurately cut them.  As I got lower the .5mg cut represented a larger percentage of my total dose. Going over to liquid Valium and diluting it with water proved to be a lifesaver for me. has allowed me to make tiny daily cuts that are smaller and more accurate than I could ever make using dry cutting.  And it greatly reduced the SXS that I was experiencing towards the end with my dry cuts.

The reality is that the vast majority of people quitting benzoduazepines do not feel the need to join BB or similar websites. This does not mean that none of them experience problems, or even significant problems. But it must be reasonable to assume that most of them manage to quit via pill-splitting, without substituting their benzodiazepine or using titration.

As for Prof. Ashton and her reasons for establishing her clinic: most of her patients had already failed to quit and were referred to her by other doctors. In short, they tended to be tougher cases. Even at BB, where we too tend to attract tougher cases, the majority of members quit directly from their benzodiazepine and without employing titration.

I do not disagree with your other comments. I too think Valium/diazepam is the ideal benzodiazepine for the purposes of withdrawal. But this is not an option for the majority of members and non-members (particularly in the US where Valium is unreasonably demonised). What I really take issue with is the maligning of a tried and tested (and ordinary) method (pill-splitting), which most people use and most of them must use. In most cases, they manage - why would anyone attempt to sow overblown seeds of doubt to their endeavour?

I suggest the most sensible approach is to initially taper via pill-splitting, and only consider substitution or titration in cases where an individual encounters significant difficulties. It is also worth me pointing out that when I posted my 'three supported methods' notice, Prof. Ashton provided me with feedback about it contents prior to its publication:

Dear [...],

I think that is very good and very balanced. I have no criticisms. Thank you for asking my opinion.

Best wishes,

Heather


> Dear Prof. Ashton,
>
> It would be appreciated if you could comment upon the attached short
> document. I know from past conversations that you appreciate and
> understand the limitations within which our support forum must operate.
>
> I hope you are keeping well,
>
> Regards,
>
> [...].

Although benzodiazepine withdrawal can be very tough for some people, there is way too much scaremongering. Unless the individual has already attempted to quit via a sensible pill-splitting taper regimen (and failed), there should be every expectation that their withdrawal will be manageable (even if not completely trouble-free). If I promoted my withdrawal from 4.5mg/day clonazepam as some kind of template for what others should expect from withdrawal, I suspect that few would even attempt it. But I know that my experiences are individual to me, and outlier. The lack of perspective by some people is quite shocking (I do not mean those going through the process now - their fears are completely understandable). No. I refer to those who have been through this, have come out the other side, but seem incapable of getting over their anger about what has occurred to them. They need to get a grip, and stop projecting their fears and prejudices upon others going into the process. Outlier should not be promoted over the normal.

[[Buddie]]

After all this dust has settled, could I and should I just continue with my daily dry micro taper?  Removing 0,001 daily from the total weight of my Diazepam tablets?  Is that an OK method? Please a simple yes or no? This whole discussion made me ever so nervous.

[[Buddie]]

After all this dust has settled, could I and should I just continue with my daily dry micro taper?  Removing 0,001 daily from the total weight of my Diazepam tablets?  Is that an OK method? Please a simple yes or no? This whole discussion made me ever so nervous.

Absolutely yes, as long as it’s working for you. I dry cut all the way down.. There are many ways to taper with a good outcome.

You can also start a new thread for more support away from all this ruckus. 

[[Buddie]]

Hi [...],

I do not know the details of your taper plan. But in general terms, my view is that so long as you have access to 2mg Valium tablets, titration is probably unnecessary for the vast majority of people. We know this through experience. This statement is less true of most, if not all, other benzodiazepines, of higher potency and/or being unavailable in lower potency doses. Irrespective, if you feel OK with what you are doing, then it is probably causing you no meaningful harm. What is unknown - because of all the reasons I have outlined in this and the other thread - is if it actually benefiting you.

The problem I have is with unsubstantiated claims of absolute efficacy. We know from feedback from some members that they have not reacted well to these home brew solutions. So, even the anecdotal evidence is mixed.

Again, if you feel OK, there is probably nothing to worry about. Are you titrating all or part of your dose?

[[Buddie]]

I' m currently holding. I tried titration with Vodka / water  with a small part of my Valium during the day,  but something didn't "feel right".  I stopped for a couple of weeks and tried again. Now with all of the Valium before bedtime. That's where it went wrong. I felt really bad. I'll be holding for a longer period this time. Nothing is really working OK,  to be honest. But being extremely sensitive,  I guess it's going to be hard to get off, no matter how I do that. Having Fibromyalgia causes me to have a lot of muscle and joint pain. So it's not always clear where pain etcetera come from;  tapering or Fibromyalgia.  Probably both. And yes, I do have access to 2 mg tablets of Valium

[[Buddie]]

[...] and I are OK. I am certainly less at odds with him than with those who come here from without to promote sham/baseless/obsessive/quack protocols. I am sure [...] is genuine in his aims - he has provided support at BB for a long time; I just need him to adhere to our rules and (hopefully) understand why we make these demands of members. Here is an explanation of the language we expect members to utilise here:

And now suddenly the boards have been suddenly rearranged and the entire Titration taper board is listed as an Archive, making it less likely that people will look to this section which has a vast amount of discussion and information. This is an active section with active threads.   This is the only board that you did this with, which to me indicates a bias.  How long will it be before you start locking the threads here in an attempt to brush it under the rugs?  It seems that you are not a fan of liquid titration or [...] and this seems like a transparent attempt to brush away an active section with active threads. section.

There are some other points of your post that I would like to respond to, but I am late in going to someplace.  I shall try to address them later on.

[[Buddie]]

We are simply updating and tightening up our titration procedures.  No need for alarm...

[[Buddie]]

[...] and I are OK. I am certainly less at odds with him than with those who come here from without to promote sham/baseless/obsessive/quack protocols. I am sure [...] is genuine in his aims - he has provided support at BB for a long time; I just need him to adhere to our rules and (hopefully) understand why we make these demands of members. Here is an explanation of the language we expect members to utilise here:

And now suddenly the boards have been suddenly rearranged and the entire Titration taper board is listed as an Archive, making it less likely that people will look to this section which has a vast amount of discussion and information. This is an active section with active threads.   This is the only board that you did this with, which to me indicates a bias.  How long will it be before you start locking the threads here in an attempt to brush it under the rugs?  It seems that you are not a fan of liquid titration or [...] and this seems like a transparent attempt to brush away an active section with active threads. section.

There are some other points of your post that I would like to respond to, but I am late in going to someplace.  I shall try to address them later on.

It has been in the pipeline for weeks. New board category and board structure; new board tiles and descriptions; and new content already drafted. As for the 'archived' titration board, it is actually still open for posts and is a sub-board to the new Titration board, which is at the same level as the 'Direct Simple Tapers' (previously, 'General Taper Plans') and substitution boards. There is a complete overhaul of the information we provide in the taper section, particularly Titration; a lot of drafts floating around in the Documentation Development board (team-only access); it has just got a to a point where it is easier to have the new structure in place so that we have logical areas to place existing materials and add new. It just so happens that Titration is the most complicated area, so it requires a more extensive overhaul. It is not the first time we have archived an important withdrawal support board:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=55.0

Sometimes it is just easier to start afresh when making substantial changes. By the way, when we properly archive the old Titration board, we will take requests for retrieval of targeted threads to the new Titration area from the old by the topic starters.

Or, I am just jerking everyone around for shits and giggles because I (and other team members) have nothing better to do with our time. Take your pick.

[[Buddie]]

Wow, a lot of stuff going on. I am back home for the night, finished with household activities and interruptions and will try to continue my comments.

I originally wrote: 

Wow, a post that challenges [...] and [...] at the same time while offering to buy the Benzobuddies message board from [...]

Obviously something with someone dating back quite a bit, or some type of behind the scenes shenanigans.

To which [...] replied:

Hi [...],

Pretty funny, hey.

Yes,  from the contents of [...]'s post I suspected something was from the past was afoot. Jana was before my time.  I never saw her board.  Any familiarity that I have from her is from references on this board.   

In the unlikely event that you decide to take up [...]'s offer to buy the board, I suggest that you get the money upfront or wait until the check has cleared.  I don't know anything about him/her, but given the situation, I would be skeptical to say the least.  I don't even smiley/emotioncom to use to convey my feelings with this).

Just to be clear, I think this is by far the best benzo resource site on the internet in terms of content, organization of the board, and people.  It was from here that I learned about the Ashton taper which I used to crossover to Valium from Klonopin, and to taper down using dry cuts until the sxs became too overwhelming.  It is also where I learned how to liquid taper thanks to [...]. 

Hill is thin-skinned. We have members of BB banned from her forum simply reporting that they had not reacted very well to her protocols. There are even more bizarre reports of paranoid bannings.

From your description of Jana Hill, the switchover of the current tapering section to archives seems like something that she would do.

The timing of the switchover of this section to archives was just too convenient.  I have no doubts it is something that you you were planning, considering all of the staff's interactions with [...].  Kind of "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome [...]?"   It is obvious you are trying to bury the current Liquid Tapering sections and its content because almost no one looks in archives.  I notice that you did not archive all of the older posts in the other tapering sections.  So your intention here is pretty blatant.

The reality is that the vast majority of people quitting benzoduazepines do not feel the need to join BB or similar websites. This does not mean that none of them experience problems, or even significant problems. But it must be reasonable to assume that most of them manage to quit via pill-splitting, without substituting their benzodiazepine or using titration.

I agree that not everyone suffers equally.  This is due to individual differences, differences in the meds they were taking, the dosages that they were taking, the frequency that they were taking it, the amount of time that they were taking, etc.  But a lot of people who suffer badly don't understand what is going on and don't end up here because they don't know that this place exists.

Anyway, there is more that I could discuss line by line, but it seems that this thread is getting quite busy.

[[Buddie]]

Hey all, so I've been melting my tablets with vodka, 2ml per 1mg then mixing the rest with higher fat milk.

I try to mix it very well so it is spread out evenly and measure extremely accurately.

It seems as I've dropped a bit lower some days, the dose I am taking almost feels more potent? I am not trying to taper too fast but yesterday I did 0.7, today I actually felt relatively okay, still crappy but I could handle it, then go to take my daily dose at 7pm and because I felt this way I took 0.68, it's about three hours after my dose and it feels like I have taken quite a bit more benzo then normal, the sedating and anxyiolytic effects seem much more potent. Is this a normal sensation even though I dropped? I realize there is probably some variance between dosing this way.

Does this mean I can try and push a little bit with further drops?

Thanks