Vodka or Milk? Help with plan prep.

[[Buddie]]

So here's what I really don't understand!  What's the risk of trying a different protocol?

Folks come here because they are having difficulties with benzo, and/or difficulties discontinuing benzos. They are taking a drug with an established toxicity, known to contribute to diminishing intellectual abilities, numerous physical issues, and a powerful depressant.  Most are already suffering from the side fx/paradoxical fxs of their benzo use.  And most are not finding real success discontinuing.

For many (most?) cut&hold (which actually IS cut&suffer) doesn't work. My C&H was difficult, until it became intolerable.  And my several attempts at "water taper" ended horribly.  (I think its well established now that the common benzos are either insoluble, or poorly soluble, in water)  The challenge with C&H is most folks reach a level where they can no longer divide a tablet in a small enough dose to allow a "tolerable" cut.  And that problem is especially acute with high potency, high dose-density drugs like clonazepam.  This is why liquid works!  It allows you make reductions measured in .01mg, or even .001mg, units.  It became  very obvious to me that the key to a successful taper lie in being able to make smaller unit reductions


So eventually, I seem to be confronted with 2 options:  1)  I can continue to take this debilitating med that is slowly ruining my life, or 2) I can try this DLMT, which makes absolute sense to my logical engineers mind.

So what's the risk???  If in spite of overwhelming logical, established science, and even anecdotal factors, what it if doesn't work?  Well, then I will probably experience some short-term discomfort, updose to my previous dose and dosing protocol, and just back where I started.  Just like I did many times with C&H and "water-taper"

So I risk a bout of short term WD discomfort, trying a solution (with a very high probablilty of success), vs continuing to take this proven toxin.

Seems like a pretty easy choice to me!

[[Buddie]]

[...],

Ignorance, arrogance or allegiance? Which one dictates your view on liquid titration and your steadfast hold on the Ashton manual? This is a question you need to ask yourself, I honestly do not care, pointing out your palpable hold on to an antiquated method. 

If BB would support a proper liquid titration, it would need to tip their hat, so to speak, towards someone and their patented protocol, in some form or another, and that isn't going to happen. It is time to move forward and away from C&H/C&S, and has been time to do so for years. Just look around this forum, there is so much needless suffering, but it continues, day after day, month after month, year after year, it is heartbreaking and so very unnecessary.

Just a bit about me, tapering via Ashton devastated me a decade ago. I cut from 20 mg's V to 10 mg's V in less than 4 months. Once at that dose, I really started to worry, I knew there was no way I could cut any lower. So, I asked for a "water-titration" schedule here, it was commonplace, and within a month using that very unreliable method, everything fell apart. Should I thank you now? I am still on my benzo a decade later, albeit at a lower dose. I am tapering via a patented method and I have to go slower than I would like due to my sensitivities from improper tapering and genetic factors. As I have to work for a living, I must remain functional. May be that didn't matter to you when you tapered years back, it should matter irregardless. As an aside, I was a moderator here years back, you are welcome for my time given to BB.

[...], I have an offer for you. I am 100% serious. Would you sell BB and all your rights to it? Feel free to PM me to discuss.


[...],

While I agree with some things that you have written in your post, there are other things that give me pause. Using a different protocol as opposed to Ashton is ideal, however, what protocol are you referencing, your own? The patented one? An abridged version of both? Answer this for yourself, not for me.

My issue with your way of doing things, is that you do not have any idea of a persons history, other medications, you do not think about inducers & inhibitors, their current state of stability, etc... How things were explained to me, is the same way they were to you. We did not transition to liquid and commence to remove straight away, we held at the liquid dose for 2-3 weeks, unless someone did not follow the advise given. Math is only a small fraction of what a proper liquid taper is about, you know this, or you should remember the information you were given. There are quite a few member who have zero idea about titration, never having used an oral syringe or prepared a liquid medication, ever. It is not just like adding cream and sugar to ones coffee. I appreciate your effort at simplicity, it is not that simple for reasons stated above.

Instead of immediately giving a plan that has them take XX mg's of benzo + XX MLS of ethanol/PG + XX MLS of water, why not start with having them prepare just one daily dose, which will allow them to get used to that preparation for a bit? They can if they wish, at a later time,  move on to larger batches.Also, please stop saying that any fatty liquid will work, it does not, and not in the same way that homogeneous milk does, which creates an even and reliable emulsion with K or V only. Other fatty substances, creates a suspension, which will not be reliable. Who wants an unreliable suspension? No one, unless it is their only option, think Ora-Plus. You constantly try to manipulate people in to not using milk, "it's perishable" it's inconvenient", it isn't, so just stop saying that, especially when someone is specifically stating they do not want to use ethanol/PG, just stop. Lastly, you wrote in a comment not long ago, that at the other forum, everyone was using liquid, which is correct. However, no one was using PG, no one was tapering off of Ativan period, and only someone who was on Xanax was using an ethanol + water. We only tapered V, K or L, and very few X. You did not spend much time on that forum, may be you did not notice that. You gathered what you needed to help yourself, then came here and pilfered someone's protocol. If I have misrepresented anything, I apologize in advance. Though I believe I am fairly accurate in what I have written.

[[Buddie]]

 

You gathered what you needed to help yourself, then came here and pilfered someone's protocol. If I have misrepresented anything, I apologize in advance. Though I believe I am fairly accurate in what I have written.

Not accurate.  Shortly after my initial consultation with Jana, and beginning my DLMT, the BDR site was shut down.  There were at least 2 attempts at a restart/alternative site, both of which I joined, but again, neither survived.

So sadly, if one is seeking benzo taper info, or if one wishes to share benzo taper info, BB seems to be the only game in town.

[[Buddie]]

 

You gathered what you needed to help yourself, then came here and pilfered someone's protocol. If I have misrepresented anything, I apologize in advance. Though I believe I am fairly accurate in what I have written.

Not accurate.  Shortly after my initial consultation with Jana, and beginning my DLMT, the BDR site was shut down.  There were at least 2 attempts at a restart/alternative site, both of which I joined, but again, neither survived.

So sadly, if one is seeking benzo taper info, or if one wishes to share benzo taper info, BB seems to be the only game in town.

BDR closed in 2014. Your taper finished end of that year.

Glad you responded to the important points of my post.
 

[[Buddie]]

So here's what I really don't understand!  What's the risk of trying a different protocol?

Hello [...],

Well, that depends upon the protocol, what it is based upon, and the evidence there is in support of it efficacy. What is the background and supporting evidence for efficacy for the protocols you promote?

You regularly make claims regarding absolute equivalency (such as in the following), and you repeatedly fail to provide citations or any evidence in support of your claims when challenged.

Whether you dose 2 or 3 times a day isn't going to make any difference. Your blood levels aren't going to vary enough to have any real effect.

And whether it's pills or liquid, 1mg diazepam is 1mg of diazepam.  Your body won't know how it got to your stomach.  I did a pills + liquid taper, because I too was intimidated by all the BS I read here on BB.  If I had to do it al over, I would have just done liquid, for the convenience. 

It's whatever your comfortable with.  If you like the tablets + liquid, then stay on  it.  If you think all liquid would be more convenient, then switch.

1mg diazepam is 1mg diazepam.

The above is clearly false, as it completely ignores a whole field of study and research (pharmacokinetics and bioavailability). Can you not supply a single citation in support for your assertion? I sketched out some of the problems I see springing from your unsupported assumptions in this post:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=230979.msg2965826#msg2965826

Folks come here because they are having difficulties with benzo, and/or difficulties discontinuing benzos. They are taking a drug with an established toxicity, known to contribute to diminishing intellectual abilities, numerous physical issues, and a powerful depressant.  Most are already suffering from the side fx/paradoxical fxs of their benzo use.  And most are not finding real success discontinuing.

'Established toxicity'. Please use this term with caution. Because, in actuality, benzodiazepines have an extremely low toxicity profile (established through clinical trials). You are attempting to win an argument by the use of any scary words which spring to mind. This is unfair to readers of these posts. Instead, please address the questions I put to you. If you cannot answer them, have the good grace to admit to this.

How do the side effects associated with benzodiazepines have anything to do with the question at hand: ie how have you established that your home brew titration protocols result in a liquid with an identical pharmacokinetic profile to the pills used to make it? It seems that you are attempting to deflect because you do not have an answer.

Emphasis appears in the original:

For many (most?) cut&hold (which actually IS cut&suffer) doesn't work. My C&H was difficult, until it became intolerable.  And my several attempts at "water taper" ended horribly.  (I think its well established now that the common benzos are either insoluble, or poorly soluble, in water)  The challenge with C&H is most folks reach a level where they can no longer divide a tablet in a small enough dose to allow a "tolerable" cut.  And that problem is especially acute with high potency, high dose-density drugs like clonazepam.  This is why liquid works!  It allows you make reductions measured in .01mg, or even .001mg, units.  It became  very obvious to me that the key to a successful taper lie in being able to make smaller unit reductions

Cut out the 'cut & suffer' nonsense. It is just more scaremongering. The vast majority of people quit benzodiazepines without substituting for a longer acting benzodiazepine or making home brew liquids. They simply split their pills.

You seem to be attempting to float a strawman argument here. I have not suggested that members should not titrate their medicines if this what they wish to do. What I do expect is that they are presented with accurate information, and where there are unknowns, these should be volunteered. Instead, you state your views as absolute certainties. And when challenged, you deflect. You are free to float ideas, engage in debate, but be open about what is unknown and honest about what you do not know.

So eventually, I seem to be confronted with 2 options:  1)  I can continue to take this debilitating med that is slowly ruining my life, or 2) I can try this DLMT, which makes absolute sense to my logical engineers mind.

The issue at hand is you expressing views as fact which are unsupported by evidence.

So what's the risk???  If in spite of overwhelming logical, established science, and even anecdotal factors, what it if doesn't work?  Well, then I will probably experience some short-term discomfort, updose to my previous dose and dosing protocol, and just back where I started.  Just like I did many times with C&H and "water-taper"

'The risks'? You are well aware, as I have already detailed these earlier in another thread. The mains risks (as I see them) are: 1) the delivered dose is significantly diminished; 2) the delivered dose is significantly increased; 3) stability of the active ingredient is negatively affected; and 4) the absorption profile is changed. In the case of making a liquid, even if we ignore the very real potential for increasing or decreasing bioavailability (the delivered dose), or negatively affecting stability, I would suspect that the absorption rate would be significantly increased. This would lead to an increase in peak value (blood levels) and diminished trough value of the drug. So, blood concentrations would cycle (vary) more between doses, with an increased potential for interdose withdrawal effects.

So I risk a bout of short term WD discomfort, trying a solution (with a very high probablilty of success), vs continuing to take this proven toxin.

Seems like a pretty easy choice to me!

Again, please do not misuse the word 'toxin'. I would just like some citations to back up your unequivocal claims. Benzodiazepines actually have one the lowest toxicity profiles of any medicine. Of course I understand that you probably mean something else by 'toxin', but it has a specific meaning within medicine, and every potential medicine is tested for this. Even water is toxic if consumed in large enough quantity.

I have not stated that you or anyone else should not titrate. I have requested that you provide citations for your claims relating to pharmacokinetics of benzodiazepine liquid made in the home. The request is surely reasonable given your unequivocal phrasing.

[[Buddie]]

[...],

Ignorance, arrogance or allegiance? Which one dictates your view on liquid titration and your steadfast hold on the Ashton manual? This is a question you need to ask yourself, I honestly do not care, pointing out your palpable hold on to an antiquated method. 

If BB would support a proper liquid titration, it would need to tip their hat, so to speak, towards someone and their patented protocol, in some form or another, and that isn't going to happen. It is time to move forward and away from C&H/C&S, and has been time to do so for years. Just look around this forum, there is so much needless suffering, but it continues, day after day, month after month, year after year, it is heartbreaking and so very unnecessary.

Just a bit about me, tapering via Ashton devastated me a decade ago. I cut from 20 mg's V to 10 mg's V in less than 4 months. Once at that dose, I really started to worry, I knew there was no way I could cut any lower. So, I asked for a "water-titration" schedule here, it was commonplace, and within a month using that very unreliable method, everything fell apart. Should I thank you now? I am still on my benzo a decade later, albeit at a lower dose. I am tapering via a patented method and I have to go slower than I would like due to my sensitivities from improper tapering and genetic factors. As I have to work for a living, I must remain functional. May be that didn't matter to you when you tapered years back, it should matter irregardless. As an aside, I was a moderator here years back, you are welcome for my time given to BB.

[...], I have an offer for you. I am 100% serious. Would you sell BB and all your rights to it? Feel free to PM me to discuss.


[...],

While I agree with some things that you have written in your post, there are other things that give me pause. Using a different protocol as opposed to Ashton is ideal, however, what protocol are you referencing, your own? The patented one? An abridged version of both? Answer this for yourself, not for me.

My issue with your way of doing things, is that you do not have any idea of a persons history, other medications, you do not think about inducers & inhibitors, their current state of stability, etc... How things were explained to me, is the same way they were to you. We did not transition to liquid and commence to remove straight away, we held at the liquid dose for 2-3 weeks, unless someone did not follow the advise given. Math is only a small fraction of what a proper liquid taper is about, you know this, or you should remember the information you were given. There are quite a few member who have zero idea about titration, never having used an oral syringe or prepared a liquid medication, ever. It is not just like adding cream and sugar to ones coffee. I appreciate your effort at simplicity, it is not that simple for reasons stated above.

Instead of immediately giving a plan that has them take XX mg's of benzo + XX MLS of ethanol/PG + XX MLS of water, why not start with having them prepare just one daily dose, which will allow them to get used to that preparation for a bit? They can if they wish, at a later time,  move on to larger batches.Also, please stop saying that any fatty liquid will work, it does not, and not in the same way that homogeneous milk does, which creates an even and reliable emulsion with K or V only. Other fatty substances, creates a suspension, which will not be reliable. Who wants an unreliable suspension? No one, unless it is their only option, think Ora-Plus. You constantly try to manipulate people in to not using milk, "it's perishable" it's inconvenient", it isn't, so just stop saying that, especially when someone is specifically stating they do not want to use ethanol/PG, just stop. Lastly, you wrote in a comment not long ago, that at the other forum, everyone was using liquid, which is correct. However, no one was using PG, no one was tapering off of Ativan period, and only someone who was on Xanax was using an ethanol + water. We only tapered V, K or L, and very few X. You did not spend much time on that forum, may be you did not notice that. You gathered what you needed to help yourself, then came here and pilfered someone's protocol. If I have misrepresented anything, I apologize in advance. Though I believe I am fairly accurate in what I have written.

[[Buddie]]

[...]-

The real essence of my post is simply, if, in the unlikely event that a liquid taper (any format, Rx, home-brew, milk, etc) doesn't work, what harm does the person really risk.  A short period of increased sxs, and a return to the previous status quo.

Compared to known risks of damage from continued benzo use  (you obviously want to argue semantics with me over "toxic"  )  an attempt at a liquid taper (any format) seem like a good bet.

[[Buddie]]

Glad you responded to the important points of my post.

I did not respond to most of your points because 1) agree with several, and 2) don't share your opinion on several others, but don't necessarily consider them "wrong", just points we have different views on. 

[[Buddie]]

Cut out the 'cut & suffer' nonsense. It is just more scaremongering. The vast majority of people quit benzodiazepines without substituting for a longer acting benzodiazepine or making home brew liquids. They simply split their pills.

If that is the case then why did Dr. Ashton establish her protocol of having people switch over to the longer acting Valium from the shorter acting benzos that they were taking?

The reason is that the Valium has a longer half-life and works better against interdose withdrawal, and it was easier to taper with because it was available in smaller comparative doses.   

Many people have tapered on faster acting benzos.  This is largely due to necessity because their doctors would uncooperative and would not allow them to crossover to valium, much less a dose of valium that would allow them to stabilize.  Or for whatever reason they chose to stay with their shorter acting benzos.  Many of these people were forced to taper with shorter acting benzos, often at doses where they were not stable.   There are many accounts of this, and tales of all types of suffering related to this on the board, as well as people having a great deal of trouble tapering by cutting pills to the point where they are debilitated.  This is hardly a testimony to the process.

I did fine with dry tapering from 20 mg of Valium down to about 7.5mg.  But then it became increasingly difficult with me having to often wait a month or more between .5 mg cuts.  I was slicing 2 mg valium pills into quarters--which was the smallest that I could accurately cut them.  As I got lower the .5mg cut represented a larger percentage of my total dose. Going over to liquid Valium and diluting it with water proved to be a lifesaver for me. has allowed me to make tiny daily cuts that are smaller and more accurate than I could ever make using dry cutting.  And it greatly reduced the SXS that I was experiencing towards the end with my dry cuts.

[[Buddie]]

[...],

Ignorance, arrogance or allegiance? Which one dictates your view on liquid titration and your steadfast hold on the Ashton manual? This is a question you need to ask yourself, I honestly do not care, pointing out your palpable hold on to an antiquated method. 

If BB would support a proper liquid titration, it would need to tip their hat, so to speak, towards someone and their patented protocol, in some form or another, and that isn't going to happen. It is time to move forward and away from C&H/C&S, and has been time to do so for years. Just look around this forum, there is so much needless suffering, but it continues, day after day, month after month, year after year, it is heartbreaking and so very unnecessary.

Just a bit about me, tapering via Ashton devastated me a decade ago. I cut from 20 mg's V to 10 mg's V in less than 4 months. Once at that dose, I really started to worry, I knew there was no way I could cut any lower. So, I asked for a "water-titration" schedule here, it was commonplace, and within a month using that very unreliable method, everything fell apart. Should I thank you now? I am still on my benzo a decade later, albeit at a lower dose. I am tapering via a patented method and I have to go slower than I would like due to my sensitivities from improper tapering and genetic factors. As I have to work for a living, I must remain functional. May be that didn't matter to you when you tapered years back, it should matter irregardless. As an aside, I was a moderator here years back, you are welcome for my time given to BB.

[...], I have an offer for you. I am 100% serious. Would you sell BB and all your rights to it? Feel free to PM me to discuss.


[...],

While I agree with some things that you have written in your post, there are other things that give me pause. Using a different protocol as opposed to Ashton is ideal, however, what protocol are you referencing, your own? The patented one? An abridged version of both? Answer this for yourself, not for me.

My issue with your way of doing things, is that you do not have any idea of a persons history, other medications, you do not think about inducers & inhibitors, their current state of stability, etc... How things were explained to me, is the same way they were to you. We did not transition to liquid and commence to remove straight away, we held at the liquid dose for 2-3 weeks, unless someone did not follow the advise given. Math is only a small fraction of what a proper liquid taper is about, you know this, or you should remember the information you were given. There are quite a few member who have zero idea about titration, never having used an oral syringe or prepared a liquid medication, ever. It is not just like adding cream and sugar to ones coffee. I appreciate your effort at simplicity, it is not that simple for reasons stated above.

Instead of immediately giving a plan that has them take XX mg's of benzo + XX MLS of ethanol/PG + XX MLS of water, why not start with having them prepare just one daily dose, which will allow them to get used to that preparation for a bit? They can if they wish, at a later time,  move on to larger batches.Also, please stop saying that any fatty liquid will work, it does not, and not in the same way that homogeneous milk does, which creates an even and reliable emulsion with K or V only. Other fatty substances, creates a suspension, which will not be reliable. Who wants an unreliable suspension? No one, unless it is their only option, think Ora-Plus. You constantly try to manipulate people in to not using milk, "it's perishable" it's inconvenient", it isn't, so just stop saying that, especially when someone is specifically stating they do not want to use ethanol/PG, just stop. Lastly, you wrote in a comment not long ago, that at the other forum, everyone was using liquid, which is correct. However, no one was using PG, no one was tapering off of Ativan period, and only someone who was on Xanax was using an ethanol + water. We only tapered V, K or L, and very few X. You did not spend much time on that forum, may be you did not notice that. You gathered what you needed to help yourself, then came here and pilfered someone's protocol. If I have misrepresented anything, I apologize in advance. Though I believe I am fairly accurate in what I have written.

Wow, a post that challenges [...] and [...] at the same time while offering to buy the Benzobuddies message board from [...]

Obviously something with someone dating back quite a bit, or some type of behind the scenes shenanigans.