HOME MADE TITRATION LIQUID V PRESCRIPTION LIQUID ANYONE FIND ONE WORKED BETTER?

[[Buddie]]

I’m glad we agree on that point, [...]!

How do we know that the homemade liquids are fully-functional and safe?  Is there empirical evidence to support this?  For each of the different benzodiazepines?  If so, can you provide us with references to supporting research?  [...] reports?  I am aware of Jouyban et al’s work on solubility but testing an active pharmaceutical ingredient for solubility is not the same thing as testing a liquid made from a different drug source (i.e. Rx tablets) for safety and effectiveness when ingested by humans.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but even in the absence of "[...] reports", the logic is overwhelming.  As noted, there is clear evidence that both PG and alcohol are effective benzo solvent.  (and the pharma companies use the same solvents).  People safely consume vodka, and water, and apparently everyone here consumes benzos. And almost all of use products containing PG every day.

And as skeptical as I am about anecdotal evidence, the anecdotal success of home-brew liquid is pretty overwhelming.

Are there [...] tests that show adding sugar to your coffee does not create some toxic by-product?

In the absence of research that would show that there are downsides to mixing 3  common ingredients (water, vodka, benzo), I will rely on the overwhelming logic that says its a no-risk option.

And for the (many) that do not have the option of Rx liquid, are they doomed to a cut&suffer taper?

I think the issue is how the benzodiazepine might be degraded by the solvent, even more so over time (if the mixture is stored). That's why a pharmacologically approved solvent or suspension medium would be vastly superior and preferable. I am not aware that anyone here (or elsewhere) can provide an unequivocal answer to this. I hope you can prove me wrong by providing a citation.

[[Buddie]]

nd I fully agree with all of that. If you have the option of Rx liquid, choose that option.

But since many docs seem reluctant to cooperate with that concept, with just a minimum of care, folks can make a fully-functional, safe liquid alternative at home.

My doc was completely willing to Rx my liquid V, so it was never an issue for me.  But had I not had that option, I would definitely done the vodka method.





i tried intensol. i didn't work. i didn't know if i should dilute it, no one told me.  doc neveer eveen said.  that being said, should i try it again, and how will i know how much to dilute.     i am going to try the vodka taper,  i am still struggling stable, my cns is still not strong, but, i need to get this med out of me.   can i still begin taper even though "wonky" feeling.   and, will the vodka taper work?   truly?  (i am senstive to most meds) i know you cant guarantee me.  but, my body is preeetty sick now and sick of 10 years of ativan. so, is my brain.  ty
 

[[Buddie]]

Home made titration liquid V Prescription Liquid anyone find one worked better? 


Hi did anyone find that home made titration liquid was problematic but prescription liquid worked fine? I'm asking because the last time I tried liquid titration using a home made liquid using vodka it was hell for over a year, cut and hold is also hell,  and today I'll be trying the prescription 5mg/5ml Diazepam liquid praying for a better result this time 🙏

[...] xxx 

"Sista" You know my story, I have done well on homemade liquid after the first two weeks, and stopping and going back. I would think it would be easier with the prescription liq, I am not sure if it has to be diluted, but it should come with instructions. Wishing the best for you my Friend, and just take a breath and when you take your first dose give the "what if's" to the universe, you will be OK, you are such a strong [...] and I am always rooting for you. Stay Strong. 💖 Peace and Healing.

'


Hello, i don't know your story.  i tried liquid lorazepam, and crashed. i didn't dilute.  just cut dose in 1/2  as it's 2 mg per ml.     but, please tell me your story. i am going to try the liquid vodka taper, i Pray to the Lord it works. i am afraid  , though.  my body reacts weird to things.   did you have sucess with liquid taper?

[[Buddie]]

My drugstore is a compounding Pharmacy so they make mine for me, so I have no clue.  Maybe someone else can chime in...but I just want to say good luck 🍀and I wish you a smooth ride, friend! ❤ BLL

what are the ingredients in your medicine from compounding place?

[[Buddie]]

I’m glad we agree on that point, [...]!

How do we know that the homemade liquids are fully-functional and safe?  Is there empirical evidence to support this?  For each of the different benzodiazepines?  If so, can you provide us with references to supporting research?  [...] reports?  I am aware of Jouyban et al’s work on solubility but testing an active pharmaceutical ingredient for solubility is not the same thing as testing a liquid made from a different drug source (i.e. Rx tablets) for safety and effectiveness when ingested by humans.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but even in the absence of "[...] reports", the logic is overwhelming.  As noted, there is clear evidence that both PG and alcohol are effective benzo solvent.  (and the pharma companies use the same solvents).  People safely consume vodka, and water, and apparently everyone here consumes benzos. And almost all of use products containing PG every day.

And as skeptical as I am about anecdotal evidence, the anecdotal success of home-brew liquid is pretty overwhelming.

Are there [...] tests that show adding sugar to your coffee does not create some toxic by-product?

In the absence of research that would show that there are downsides to mixing 3  common ingredients (water, vodka, benzo), I will rely on the overwhelming logic that says its a no-risk option.

And for the (many) that do not have the option of Rx liquid, are they doomed to a cut&suffer taper?

I think the issue is how the benzodiazepine might be degraded by the solvent, even more so over time (if the mixture is stored). That's why a pharmacologically approved solvent or suspension medium would be vastly superior and preferable. I am not aware that anyone here (or elsewhere) can provide an unequivocal answer to this. I hope you can prove me wrong by providing a citation.

A related issue to consider is whether or not the active drug substance is fully and completely solubilized under “home-brew” conditions. In contrast, Jouyban et al’s solubility tests were conducted under carefully controlled, laboratory conditions.  I would need to re-read the methodology again to be certain, but my recollection is that those conditions included pre-processing of the active pharmaceutical ingredient, use of special apparatus for agitation, and controlled temperatures.  Also, the final products generated were definitely NOT tested for stability or microbiological activity over time.

Another issue to bear in mind is that the prescription liquids for benzodiazepines all contain multiple ingredients.  Each ingredient serves a specific purpose, including increasing solubility.  For example, below are the ingredients for the two prescription liquids for diazepam available in the U.S.

Ingredients in Diazepam Oral Solution (5 mg per 5 mL = 1 mg per 1mL)

ANHYDROUS CITRIC ACID (UNII: XF417D3PSL)   
D&C YELLOW NO. 10 (UNII: 35SW5USQ3G)   
FD&C RED NO. 40 (UNII: WZB9127XOA)   
POLYETHYLENE GLYCOL 1000 (UNII: U076Q6Q621)   
PROPYLENE GLYCOL (UNII: 6DC9Q167V3)   
SODIUM CITRATE, UNSPECIFIED FORM (UNII: 1Q73Q2JULR)   
SORBITOL (UNII: 506T60A25R)   
WATER (UNII: 059QF0KO0R)

Ingredients in Diazepam Intensol (25mg per 5mL = 5mg per 1mL)

ALCOHOL (UNII: 3K9958V90M)   190 mg  in 1 mL
D&C YELLOW NO. 10 (UNII: 35SW5USQ3G)   
POLYETHYLENE GLYCOL 400 (UNII: B697894SGQ)   
PROPYLENE GLYCOL (UNII: 6DC9Q167V3)   
SUCCINIC ACID (UNII: AB6MNQ6J6L)   
WATER (UNII: 059QF0KO0R)

[[Buddie]]

And for the (many) that do not have the option of Rx liquid, are they doomed to a cut&suffer taper?

Oh, and by the way - I know that you writing deliberately to get a rise - but knock it off with that stuff. We've been trough this before. Most people taper off by splitting their pills and they do just fine.

[[Buddie]]

How do we know that the homemade liquids are fully-functional and safe?  Is there empirical evidence to support this?  For each of the different benzodiazepines?  If so, can you provide us with references to supporting research?  [...] reports?  I am aware of Jouyban et al’s work on solubility but testing an active pharmaceutical ingredient for solubility is not the same thing as testing a liquid made from a different drug source (i.e. Rx tablets) for safety and effectiveness when ingested by humans.

Much of the information that we have on this board is best practices that we have learned from others here and developed as a community.  Our base is  the pioneering work of Dr. Ashton. 

I don't think there is much interest in Benzo studies on the part of the medical establishment or drug companies.  Benzos are old news and they seem to be comfortable in their knowledge with them.  I think they may believe that they know everything there is to know about benzos and withdrawal.  So they have little interest in conducting more studies.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to characterize the medical establishment as monolithic.  Some doctors and psychiatrists are indeed interested, knowledgeable, and flexible and recognize problems with Benzos and believe in methods pioneered by Dr. Ashton, as well as slow tapers.

[[Buddie]]

And for the (many) that do not have the option of Rx liquid, are they doomed to a cut&suffer taper?

Oh, and by the way - I know that you writing deliberately to get a rise - but knock it off with that stuff. We've been trough this before. Most people taper off by splitting their pills and they do just fine.

Yes, [...], I acknowledge it was an (intentionally) snarky comment, but the reality is there is a substantial minority here that find cut&hold  (like that one better? ) difficult.  I did a difficult C&H until I got to 9mg, then it became intolerably impossible.

And yes, there are apparently no studies to on the stability of the "home-brew", but there are no studies to suggest there is any degradation or loss of efficacy.  And again, based on pure logic, I see no reason to suspect there is any degradation.  Like I said, I haven't seen any studies on what happens when you stir sugar in coffee.

And yes, the real substance of this forum is the collective experience of the membership, and the shared experience is that many members who could not tolerate a C&H successfully tapered with a home made compound, be it PG, beverage alcohol, or milk

[[Buddie]]

i tried intensol. i didn't work. i didn't know if i should dilute it, no one told me.  doc neveer eveen said.  that being said, should i try it again, and how will i know how much to dilute.

I looked up liquid Intensol and its instructions state that it should be mixed with a liquid.  Without mixing it with water I imagine it tasted harsh and could have caused other issues, like making someone feel nauseated, etc.

You might want to consider trying it again, but diluting each ml of the liquid Intensol with 18 mls of water.  In looking it up, liquid Intensol has 2 mg of Intensol for each ML of the concentrate.  This will give you a solution where 1 ml of the mix will equal .1 ml of Intensol.

To be fair, most doctors and pharmacists are unfamiliar with liquid benzos.  My psychiatrist had never prescribed it before.  When I asked my pharmacist about the instructions on the bottle that specified "dilute before use to enhance palatability" she said that just meant to add some water but wasn't specific.  When I asked her if she ever dealt with liquid valium/diazepam before, she was honest and said no. 

When I put a tiny amount of the liquid valium/diazepam from the bottle on my finger and tasted it on my tongue it tasted harsh. 

But once I followed [...]'s suggestion and diluted one part of the liquid valium/diazepam with 9 parts water, it tasted like some mild cough syrup and was completely palatable.

Aside from the taste issue and making a liquid solution that is far less likely to cause issues like upset stomach, diluting the liquid gives you a solution with a lower concentration of, which allows you taper daily by a smaller amount.
 

[[Buddie]]

Though some people have managed with dry cuts, I am definitely one of those who could not.

I started tapering with valium pills after crossing over from 1 mg of Klonopin a day to 20 MG of valium.  I was using a mix of 10 mg, and 2 mg pills.  From 20 mg a day down to 10 my a day I was doing straight cuts by 1 mg of valium and holding for about 10 days to 2 weeks.  I was using 2 mg vailium pills and cutting them in half to enable me to make 1 mg cuts,  Once I got to 10 mg of valium, I started cutting the 2mg valium pills in quarters, to allow me to make cuts by .5 mg.

Once I got down to about 7.5 mg per day symptoms started getting quite noticeable.  When I dropped from 7 mg a day to 6.5 mg a day they got really bad, to the point where I was getting hit for several weeks after each .5 mg cut.  I had to reduce my .5 mg cuts down to about once a month.  I realized as I reduced my total dosage those .5mg cuts would represent a higher percentage of my daily dose and likely result in worse symptoms.

After I got down to 6 mg a day and stabilized, I switched over to doing a DLMT using liquid diazepam/valium, diluted with 9 mls water for each ml of diazepam/valium.    This makes life infinitely more livable with far less SXS, and allows me to make very small cuts on a daily basis.