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taking longer the lower I go


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Hi all! I was hoping someone could explain something to me....

 

I am using the download of the liquid titration spreadsheet. I believe it is the one from benzo support.org. So last year I started crushing 4mgs daily using 800ml of liquid (I then divide that into 4 jars) and pulling out 2 ml per day. When I reached tossing 200ml and drinking 600ml I was at my first goal of being down 1 mg so i was finally at 3mg. I then started with a fresh spreadsheet and entered 3mg of xanax instead of 4 still using 800ml of liquid....but now it says I won't be down to the next goal of 2mg/day until I toss 268ml and drink 532.

 

I kept the amount of liquid the same because I am able to work with the percentage drop and don't want to drop a greater %.

 

My question is ( and it is probably common sense, which is failing me lately) is WHY if I am dropping 1mg with each spreadsheet, why is it taking me much longer on 3mgs than it did on 4mgs? I would think the smaller the dose it would go quicker???

 

Did I do something wrong? I know about having to go slower on purpose the lower we get, but I haven't changed anything yet. Still same total amount of liquid...still dropping 1mg.

 

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It's right. You didn't mess up. Your solution is now more dilute, so it takes more solution to make 1 mg.

 

That's the explanation. Now on to the math!

 

The funny thing about units like "mg" and "mL" is that they cancel just like numbers if you divide or multiply. It's hard to show how that works with simple text on this forum. If I had a white board or something it would be easier to show.

 

4 mg divided by 800 mL is 0.005 mg per mL or 0.005 mg/mL. (Notice: 4 mg / 800 mL = 0.005 mg/mL)

 

0.005 mg/mL times 200 mL is 1 mg. You were throwing away 1 mg out of the 4 mg.

 

Then you decided to make a solution using only 300 mg, and going back to the 800 mL so you can keep the percentage reduction the same. I do this too in my taper, but with different numbers.

 

So now you're using 3 mg and dividing by 800 mL, which is 0.00375 mg per mL, or 0.00375 mg/mL. 0.00375 is smaller than 0.005. How many mL does it take of a 0.00375 mg/mL solution to make 1 mg? You divide 1 mg by 0.00375 mg/mL. 1 divided by 0.00375 is 266.666666... (or 266 and two-thirds), so just round up to 267 mL. You'll have to throw out 267 mL in order to throw out 1 mg.

 

Like I said, I do the same with my taper. But I use 100 mL as my daily dose. I reduce my dose by 1 mL each day, which is a 1% reduction per day, at first. When I get down to about 80 mL or so, I make my solution more dilute and go back up to 100 mL per day.

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Thanks Hope! That is super cool. I wish I was good with numbers like that! They always confuse me. I was told I am right brained, I guess more creative than analytic. I lot of good that does me haha.

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me  :smitten:

 

So the bad part is this is going to take me longer than I thought :::sigh::: With my original spreadsheet using the 4mg crushed I had it calculated to end at a certain date, give or take with holds etc. Now, each time I recalculate with less pills (end of August I will have to make a new spreadsheet only crushing 2mgs) it will drag it out longerrrrrr  :'(

 

For some reason my uneducated non-math brain thought ok, well the less pills means less time lol. Unfortunately, not the case here. My wonderful understanding MD who supported me with this has decided to leave his practice to do research medicine. There is a new MD taking his place but I've already googled her and she is not listed as a MD who prescribes benzo's. When I asked him if she would continue with my treatment he said he can't say for certain, but he hopes she will. But he said if she does agree to write the script do not tell her what I am doing. She wouldn't understand all the mixing and titration. She would probably just do a typical quick taper YIKES!

 

So now after being so proud of myself with my accomplishment so far, I have the anxiety of knowing I might not get a refill. I think you mentioned once that there is a way that I could do an opposite type taper. One where I could do it without tossing the crushed pills down the drain every day? I might need to do that, but I am not sure how. I am guessing I would drink what I pull instead of tossing it, but my brain can't figure out how to make that work  :idiot:

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I have a degree in chemistry. That's how I can figure it all out. It's been 25 years since I actually worked IN the lab. But my career has always been working with other people who work in the lab so I can sort of keep current with it.

 

builder is the one who always goes on a rant about not throwing it away. I see his point, but if people can wrap their heads around the "take some out and throw it away then drink the rest" idea - but can't understand the other way - well, do what works.

 

The not-throwing-it-away way requires that you make up more than one day's mix at a time. I make 5 days worth at a time, and pour out the daily dose using a graduated cylinder I bought off amazon. But in the end, after I've poured out 5 days worth, there's usually only a little left in the container anyways so I just pour it out rather than add it to the next batch I make. Only after I've gotten down a bit does it start to last 6 days, or 7 days, but not usually much more before I start making a more dilute solution to start tapering down.

 

I started tapering when I was taking 1 mg per day. I got down to 0.9 mg in 10 days. That's when I realized that if I make a more dilute solution, it would take me 12 days to get to 0.8 mg. And then 14 days to get to 0.7 mg. And so on. It kinda bummed me out too.

 

Drinking 800 mL per day would mean you would be making up 4 liters if you want a 5 day supply. You might be able to get away with making less. You could make 80 mL per day instead. That way a 5 day supply would only be 400 mL. Instead of removing 2 mL per day, you would remove 0.2 mL per day. You can do that using a 1 mL syringe.

 

So a 5 day supply at your new 3 mg per day dose would be 15 mg, add 30 mL vodka and let the pills "deconstruct." Add 370 mL water. And voila! you have your 5 day supply. Each day you would pour out 80 mL, and then remove an extra 0.2 mL per day. What you remove you can just squirt back into the jar with your 5 day supply. Although at the end of 5 days you only have 1 mL leftover. Not really enough to keep.

 

Does all that make sense?

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So if I am understanding this correctly...either way I am still using the same amount of pills (mgs) so doing it this way isn't really saving me any pills or making them last longer right? It is just a different way of doing it, but not actually saving me pills so I can stretch the taper process out longer???

 

Maybe I can start to make a new spreadsheet every time I get to each "milestone" like .25 or .5. That way I can be saving up those pieces of pills to use to be able to extend my taper longer in case I can't get refills.

 

I have saved some because my script is for 1mg 4x/day and now I am only using 3mg/day. And starting in September I will only be using 2m/day...but with the extra time it's taking the lower I go, I think this might take another year.

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So if I am understanding this correctly...either way I am still using the same amount of pills (mgs) so doing it this way isn't really saving me any pills or making them last longer right? It is just a different way of doing it, but not actually saving me pills so I can stretch the taper process out longer???

Hello Fx4.  The “measure your dose and drink it” approach “saves pills” compared with the “measure your reduction and toss it” approach.  In the former you are not throwing away liquid (which includes the drug substance that is dissolved or suspended in your liquid).  In the latter you are throwing away liquid (and hence drug substance).

 

If the above is clear as mud, perhaps this will help. Think of how you would take a dose of liquid cough/cold/flu/sleep medicine.  You measure out the amount of liquid you are supposed to take and drink it.  You do not remove and discard a portion of the liquid.

 

HTDT can do a far better job than I at explaining the math behind this so I hope she will chime in!

 

Edits: minor wording and formatting changes

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Hi Libertas!

 

I did go into how "measure and drink your dose" saves pills a little bit in my spiel. faithx4 is already saving pills by making a more dilute solution. Instead of taking 4 pills a day, she's now using 3. The amount of she would save by "measure and drink your dose" as opposed to "measure your dose and throw some away" is not very much, until she gets closer to taking 2 pills a day.

 

If faithx4 saved the little bit she threw out every day, it would take 15 days (or so) to save up another daily dose.

 

I like the approach of reducing your daily solution every day to a certain point, and then making a more dilute solution, going back up to the same volume, and reducing your daily solution again. It keeps the percentage reduction the same (pretty much) as you go down. But it does stretch out your taper. At some point you have to bite the bullet and keep making straight reductions, because reducing by 10% will never get you to your endpoint. It reminds me of that philosophical problem, you can never reach your destination if first you must travel half way there, then you must travel half way of the remaining distance, and then half way of that remaining distance, and so on.

 

As you can see from my signature, I had to updose again and stabilize because I "bit the bullet" too early and kept making straight reductions. I was hoping to complete my taper before a vacation trip. But that didn't work. I ended up at half the daily dose I started my taper from. Now I'm trying to switch over to liquid again (I was taking tablet pieces) and stabilize. And it's much harder this time.

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Hi HopeToDoThis,

 

You didn't need a whiteboard after all.  You explained it clear as a bell.  Even I get it! :laugh:

 

Thanks for the explanation,

Al

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Hi HTDT.  Thanks ever so for contributing to our discussion of Fx4’s request. Forgive my benzo brain but I’m not following your point that she is “... already saving pills by making a more dilute solution. Instead of taking 4 pills a day, she's now using 3.”  I thought she was taking 3 pills instead of 4 b/c she has successfully tapered from 4 to 3mg.  Can you help me connect the dots?  Also, what are your thoughts on her idea of using pieces of pills to make her liquid?
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Hi HTDT.  Thanks ever so for contributing to our discussion of Fx4’s request. Forgive my benzo brain but I’m not following your point that she is “... already saving pills by making a more dilute solution. Instead of taking 4 pills a day, she's now using 3.”  I thought she was taking 3 pills instead of 4 b/c she has successfully tapered from 4 to 3mg.  Can you help me connect the dots?  Also, what are your thoughts on her idea of using pieces of pills to make her liquid?

 

These are the same thing!  :) :) :)

 

I would only break pills in half if they are scored (that is, with a line). But even then, at least with my pills, when I break them in half, one half is always bigger than the other. It's probably not a big difference, since each pill itself is different. It's just easiest using whole pills.

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Hi HTDT.  Thanks ever so for contributing to our discussion of Fx4’s request. Forgive my benzo brain but I’m not following your point that she is “... already saving pills by making a more dilute solution. Instead of taking 4 pills a day, she's now using 3.”  I thought she was taking 3 pills instead of 4 b/c she has successfully tapered from 4 to 3mg.  Can you help me connect the dots?  Also, what are your thoughts on her idea of using pieces of pills to make her liquid?

My benzo brain read it that you were making a connection between “saving pills” and use of a more dilute liquid.  Thanks for the clarification.

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Yes I agree that it will be easier using whole pills. When I try using a pill cutter to halve them I have the same issue. One half is always bigger than the other, or it just crumbles into bits! I was just trying to think of SOME way to conserve pills. I am getting anxious about the thought of not having enough pills to continue my taper.

 

If this new MD will not agree to continue with my prescription, I am not sure how to find someone who will. I can't just call a bunch of doctors and ask them if they will prescribe xanax to a new patient. It makes me look like a drug seeker.

 

If only I had started this one year earlier  :'(

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Hope to Do This!

 

Sorry to bother you again. I have now reached my milestone and am finally down to 2mg!!! Imagine my surprise when I found out it will now take me 7 months to drop 1 mg ughhh. It took me 10 months to drop a whole 2mg and now 7 months just to drop one  :ticked off:

 

At this rate I will never have enough pills to finish as I can only imagine how long it will take with my last 1mg taper  :'(

 

My question for you is do you think it will make a HUGE difference if I start pulling 3ml per day instead of 2? I have been ok at pulling 2ml/day for the most part (symptoms, but I can still work). I tried to figure it out on my spreadsheet and if I do that it will only take 5 months. I am so scared to rush it, but possible lack of being able to get a refill has me terrified.

 

I read somewhere on here that someone said it can get easier the lower you drop, but I'm almost certain I've also read it gets harder.

 

I value your opinion and I am hoping that you think that taking 3ml cuts will not be too fast, but I'd rather get an honest opinion than to rush it. From what you have written, rushing does not work. Any thoughts on this?

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Hi Hope to Do This!

 

Sorry to bother you again. I have now reached my milestone and am finally down to 2mg!!! Imagine my surprise when I found out it will now take me 7 months to drop 1 mg ughhh. It took me 10 months to drop a whole 2mg and now 7 months just to drop one  :ticked off:

 

At this rate I will never have enough pills to finish as I can only imagine how long it will take with my last 1mg taper  :'(

 

My question for you is do you think it will make a HUGE difference if I start pulling 3ml per day instead of 2? I have been ok at pulling 2ml/day for the most part (symptoms, but I can still work). I tried to figure it out on my spreadsheet and if I do that it will only take 5 months. I am so scared to rush it, but possible lack of being able to get a refill has me terrified.

 

I read somewhere on here that someone said it can get easier the lower you drop, but I'm almost certain I've also read it gets harder.

 

I value your opinion and I am hoping that you think that taking 3ml cuts will not be too fast, but I'd rather get an honest opinion than to rush it. From what you have written, rushing does not work. Any thoughts on this?

 

Hi faithx4! I'm glad you value my opinion, but unfortunately I have no advice for you at this point except to listen to yourself.  Since xanax is so short acting, if you taper too much you'll know in a couple of days and you can always hold. This has been my experience with it. You can try withdrawing 3 mL per day and see what happens. But only do it if you think you can handle it.

 

Did you ask your new doctor if she'll prescribe for you?

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Yes, it is well-known that I am a proponent of the "just measure up up your dose and take it" school, and that "pull and discard" is silly, wasteful, labor-intensive, and inefficient.  If your doc gave  you a scrip for a liquid med and the dosing instructions were: Take 10 tsp day 1, then reduce dose by 1 tsp each day, how would you take that med?  I think you would measure out 10 tsp day 1, 9 tsp day 2, 8 tsp day 3, etc.  I'm pretty certain you would NOT throw some away each day and drink what was left.  That's all there is to a daily taper!!

 

But, if the only way you can conceptualize a daily reduction is to throw some away, then, whatever works!

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Thanks HTDT. I am going to try 3ml. If I have to slow down I will. So far the lower I go the better I feel (not saying I have no symptoms, but less intense than my interdose withdrawal sx for 10 plus years) so fingers crossed this will continue.

 

Builder, I did inquire about saving and not wasting, but someone on this thread said that I would only be saving 1 dose every 15 days by doing so and I would have to make 5 batches at once. For me 800ml x 5 is quite a lot if the end result is only saving myself 2 doses/month  :-[

 

I am not closed to other suggestions. If you have one I appreciate any advice :)

 

PS ....HTDT I have an appointment in 4 weeks for the new MD that is replacing my doc. My fingers are crossed. My doctor is retiring from patients and going into research medicine. When I asked him if his replacement would keep me on my protocol he said "I can't promise what she will do, but I will advise you NOT to tell her you are tapering. She would not understand the mixing and jars etc. like I do". He said just tell her you are doing well on your current protocol.

 

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Builder, I did inquire about saving and not wasting, but someone on this thread said that I would only be saving 1 dose every 15 days by doing so and I would have to make 5 batches at once. For me 800ml x 5 is quite a lot if the end result is only saving myself 2 doses/month  :-[

 

 

 

I'm sure that math is wrong, but as I said above... then, whatever works!  :)

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Builder, please feel free to check my math. I think all the information to so is in this thread.

 

I myself was wondering if I should reduce my reductions. I am on 0.005 mg/mL, and since I'm at 0.4 mg I thought I would make my solution more dilute to 0.004 mg/mL and start that reducing again. But If I have only light symptoms, maybe I will keep reducing with the 0.005 mg/mL reducing 1 mL a day. Maybe I will listen to my own advice and see what happens.

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