Author Topic: Symptoms following Liquid taper  (Read 10279 times)

[Buddie]

Symptoms following Liquid taper
« on: April 05, 2018, 04:55:56 pm »
Hi everybody,

Lastly I happened to be going through a number of posts where buddies were distressed for one specific reason. It touches a limited number of buddies and it seems by changing from tablets to solution, usually milk, they have felt withdrawal symptoms. As I cannot confirm that those symptoms came from using milk as solvent, it is not excluded that the same problem could have occurred with other liquids used as solvent/suspension too (alcohol, glycol propylene, Ora-Plus, etc...). What made me feel uneasy is that a number of them seemed to feel from the very beginning the same withdrawal effect as when benzo has been abruptly interrupted. Others felt their liquid dose was just not enough compared to when the same dose was taken with tablets. As any taper, Direct or Liquid, is there to alleviate sufferings, it seems to me important to have an answer to that issue and possibly have guidelines to offer to patients a reliable taper approach they can trust.

I here established a short list of questions with the hope that buddies can spend some of their precious time to answer. Their contribution will perhaps permit an insight into the mechanism and help newcomers to tackle their taper with reasonable confidence.

1. Did you use tablets or drops or pharmacy compound solution to prepare your solution? (Tablets / Drops / Pharmacy)
2. Did you experience symptoms changing from (benzo) tablets to solution? (Yes/No)
3. What solvent did you use? (Water, alcohol, juice, milk, ...). If milk, what type?
4. How would you rate the average intensity of these symptoms on a scale of 10 (0: same as with tablets - 10: very strong like with cold turkey)
5. What did you do to address the problem? (Abandon liquid, increase liquid dose, hold, additional medications...)
6. Based on your experience, would you recommend liquid taper to buddies who wish to taper? (Yes/No)

Here is my contribution based on my experience:
1. Drops
2. No
3. Water (to dilute benzo drops)
4. 0
5. Liquid till the end
6. Yes

Many thanks.

:hug:
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Symptoms following Liquid taper
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2018, 05:11:42 pm »
1. Tablets
2. Yes
3. Vodka
4. 9+
5. Went back to tablet for a week, then restarted Liquid again.
6. Yes!
  :)
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Symptoms following Liquid taper
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2018, 06:19:12 pm »
Tablets, now xanax, once that's gone, will liquid taper valium
Not
Full fat milk
0
Plan on liquid til end
Yes
 :)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 09:47:00 pm by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Symptoms following Liquid taper
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2018, 06:57:37 pm »
Following ...
Great idea, JH, thanks for doing this!  :smitten:
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Symptoms following Liquid taper
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2018, 07:39:22 pm »
1. Did you use tablets or drops or pharmacy compound solution to prepare your solution? (Tablets / Drops / Pharmacy)

I used valium tablets (dry cut with a scale), pharmaceutical solution and milk at various points.

2. Did you experience symptoms changing from (benzo) tablets to solution? (Yes/No)

Yes. Definitely.

Switching from tablets to the pharmaceutical solution felt like a large cut. This may have been due to difference in uptake, and potentially a reaction to the fillers like sorbitol and propylene glycol. I had to stop and go back to tablets after a short trial because I had completely lost my ability to sleep. Upon reinstating tablets, sleep returned. I had no expectation of this happening either, I believed they would be equivalent.

More recently, I switched from tablets to milk. I also felt this as a significant cut, despite not expecting a difference. I believe the uptake is slightly different. For other medications, I've read studies where factors like the presence of food in the stomach affected uptake slightly, and also where liquid/tablets differ slightly in uptake. It's often stated here that since it's the same exact tablet being dissolved in milk, it should be exactly the same. I don't believe it, I think differences in the range of 5-10% may be possible.



3. What solvent did you use? (Water, alcohol, juice, milk, ...). If milk, what type?

Full fat milk. Crushed tablets, lots of shaking, and leaving at least overnight.

4. How would you rate the average intensity of these symptoms on a scale of 10 (0: same as with tablets - 10: very strong like with cold turkey)

Did not cold turkey, but symptoms went from 0 to 7 within a few days on this scale with the pharma solution, and perhaps 0 to 5 with milk.


5. What did you do to address the problem? (Abandon liquid, increase liquid dose, hold, additional medications...)

Abandoned the pharma liquid since the symptoms were too intense and there were uncertain factors e.g. sorbitol in the solution.

Carried on with the milk valium, and treated it as a cut.


6. Based on your experience, would you recommend liquid taper to buddies who wish to taper? (Yes/No)

Yes with milk.

While I believe there are differences that some members are or may be sensitive enough to feel. There are two more important points:

a) Even if switching to milk titration is a significant cut, you would otherwise have made it with tablets anyway. However, passing through this switch to liquid will definitely minimize suffering in future through smaller, more precise and stable reductions compared to dry cutting (which does become less precise as doses reduce).

b) Apart from a direct difference in uptake between tablets and liquid solutions, another factor may be the accuracy of the previous method. For instance, your 0.001g scales may have been reading slightly lower than reality (e.g. displaying 0.030 when it is actually 0.035). Then an equivalent measurement of the liquid dose will be experienced as a cut as an artefact of this. This may be particularly possible at lower dosages, where scales become less precise. This may be an "unseen" reason for false attribution of some or all blame to the new liquid solution.

Overall, I believe that switching to liquid micro-tapering is probably the best thing you can do to minimise overall suffering. Switching may be equivalent to a cut, but in the long run your body will thank you.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 07:47:23 pm by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Symptoms following Liquid taper
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2018, 07:42:58 pm »
Iím following as well - Iím very interested in the feedback.  When I start tapering again, Iíd like to use milk and plan on converting to liquid with the full dose for a few days before reducing so that I can gauge any changes/symptoms.

Thanks!
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Symptoms following Liquid taper
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2018, 09:27:08 pm »
Hi everybody,

Lastly I happened to be going through a number of posts where buddies were distressed for one specific reason. It touches a limited number of buddies and it seems by changing from tablets to solution, usually milk, they have felt withdrawal symptoms. As I cannot confirm that those symptoms came from using milk as solvent, it is not excluded that the same problem could have occurred with other liquids used as solvent/suspension too (alcohol, glycol propylene, Ora-Plus, etc...). What made me feel uneasy is that a number of them seemed to feel from the very beginning the same withdrawal effect as when benzo has been abruptly interrupted. Others felt their liquid dose was just not enough compared to when the same dose was taken with tablets. As any taper, Direct or Liquid, is there to alleviate sufferings, it seems to me important to have an answer to that issue and possibly have guidelines to offer to patients a reliable taper approach they can trust.

I here established a short list of questions with the hope that buddies can spend some of their precious time to answer. Their contribution will perhaps permit an insight into the mechanism and help newcomers to tackle their taper with reasonable confidence.

1. Did you use tablets or drops or pharmacy compound solution to prepare your solution? (Tablets / Drops / Pharmacy)
2. Did you experience symptoms changing from (benzo) tablets to solution? (Yes/No)
3. What solvent did you use? (Water, alcohol, juice, milk, ...). If milk, what type?
4. How would you rate the average intensity of these symptoms on a scale of 10 (0: same as with tablets - 10: very strong like with cold turkey)
5. What did you do to address the problem? (Abandon liquid, increase liquid dose, hold, additional medications...)
6. Based on your experience, would you recommend liquid taper to buddies who wish to taper? (Yes/No)

Here is my contribution based on my experience:

1. Drops
2. No
3. Water (to dilute benzo drops)
4. 0
5. Liquid till the end
6. Yes

Many thanks.

:hug:

Iím not sure but Iíve seen more people fail with liquid using kolonopin then other benzos; especially when milk is used - I could be wrong:

1. Generic tablets
2. Yes
3. Full fat homogenized milk
4. 10 felt like full blown cold turkey - was told this was normal
    Body would adjust; it did not
5. Abandon liquid after 6 months! switched back to generic pills; then
    Brand name kolonopin
6. No; but I would not rule out possibly using other liquids
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Symptoms following Liquid taper
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2018, 10:19:31 pm »
This is the million dollar question. I have studied it to death. These are just my feelings /theory. One, when you take a liquid medication it hits you harder, faster, and effects leave faster. This could explain why people experience interdose withdrawal when starting liquid. This could have something to do with the first pass issue, I'm not sure. Also a huge topic that is not seen often on this forum is : ADVERSE EFFECTS. I believe that a lot of us could be mistaking tolerance for adverse effects. After I cold turkeyed my klonopin in August, the ulcers in my eyes went away almost immediately. I looked up adverse effects for benzos and saw ulcers in eyes listed somewhere. So I believe, while I was on tolerance of course because I had cut my dose before I CT, I was having ADVERSE EFFECTS to the klonopin. I think all this has a link, but what I don't know...
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Symptoms following Liquid taper
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2018, 10:36:16 pm »
This is the million dollar question. I have studied it to death. These are just my feelings /theory. One, when you take a liquid medication it hits you harder, faster, and effects leave faster. This could explain why people experience interdose withdrawal when starting liquid. This could have something to do with the first pass issue, I'm not sure. Also a huge topic that is not seen often on this forum is : ADVERSE EFFECTS. I believe that a lot of us could be mistaking tolerance for adverse effects. After I cold turkeyed my klonopin in August, the ulcers in my eyes went away almost immediately. I looked up adverse effects for benzos and saw ulcers in eyes listed somewhere. So I believe, while I was on tolerance of course because I had cut my dose before I CT, I was having ADVERSE EFFECTS to the klonopin. I think all this has a link, but what I don't know...

Oh my gosh;;;; yes! I think this is what happened to me also severely!!! But I still have to taper it;;; my story is complicated ( I know you and I corresponded a long time ago; u were very kind)

The adverse effects can also look like w/d sxs.

My question is if itís adverse and still going in your brain to taper is it causing irreparable damage

Iím so glad you shared this and I hope some of my stuff goes away... I keep saying I need a miracle
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Symptoms following Liquid taper
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2018, 11:21:51 pm »
Hi everybody,

Lastly I happened to be going through a number of posts where buddies were distressed for one specific reason. It touches a limited number of buddies and it seems by changing from tablets to solution, usually milk, they have felt withdrawal symptoms. As I cannot confirm that those symptoms came from using milk as solvent, it is not excluded that the same problem could have occurred with other liquids used as solvent/suspension too (alcohol, glycol propylene, Ora-Plus, etc...). What made me feel uneasy is that a number of them seemed to feel from the very beginning the same withdrawal effect as when benzo has been abruptly interrupted. Others felt their liquid dose was just not enough compared to when the same dose was taken with tablets. As any taper, Direct or Liquid, is there to alleviate sufferings, it seems to me important to have an answer to that issue and possibly have guidelines to offer to patients a reliable taper approach they can trust.

I here established a short list of questions with the hope that buddies can spend some of their precious time to answer. Their contribution will perhaps permit an insight into the mechanism and help newcomers to tackle their taper with reasonable confidence.

1. Did you use tablets or drops or pharmacy compound solution to prepare your solution? (Tablets / Drops / Pharmacy)
2. Did you experience symptoms changing from (benzo) tablets to solution? (Yes/No)
3. What solvent did you use? (Water, alcohol, juice, milk, ...). If milk, what type?
4. How would you rate the average intensity of these symptoms on a scale of 10 (0: same as with tablets - 10: very strong like with cold turkey)
5. What did you do to address the problem? (Abandon liquid, increase liquid dose, hold, additional medications...)
6. Based on your experience, would you recommend liquid taper to buddies who wish to taper? (Yes/No)

Here is my contribution based on my experience:
1. Drops
2. No
3. Water (to dilute benzo drops)
4. 0
5. Liquid till the end
6. Yes

Many thanks.

:hug:

1. made my own solution
2. Yes!
3. Water and alcohol
4. 8-9
5. I went straight back to all tablets, now use mostly tablets with a small amount of liquid for precision.
6. Absolutely!

Thanks for doing this.... and all the others things you are doing for us with the taper schedules etc.  We have to be our own researchers in this game - and having people like you around makes it possible.

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.