Jump to content

Rapid metabolizers support group


[Ki...]

Recommended Posts

Is there one already? If so I cant find it. If not- we need one cause I get a lot of PMs about it! I wondered why I felt so much better after dosing but it wore off so fast. My doc confused me saying there was no need in nibbling the valium pills throughout the day like I had done with xanax, but I knew better from reading on benzo buddies. I had heard of rapid metabolism so I did the 23 and me DNA and found out it wasnt in my head at all!I decided to try using grapefruit juice. Figuring out how much to use is a constant challenge for me. Since we dont want to stop the drug breaking down we just want to slow it down so we metabolize more "normally" and predictably, the biggest problem I see is the inability to know how much of the enzyme you have at a given moment compared to someone who has average metabolism. What I found over the past few months is no matter what I do its never right- but it helps me to only dose once a day which helps me with sleep.I did read on my 23 and me report interpretation through livewello people who are fast metabolizers have less successful outcomes with treatment and should consider other avenues. Sometimes though we have no choice!

My grapefruit juice this week has been a tablespoon at breakfast. Sometimes its 30 minutes before the valium. Sometimes its an ounce or so for a few days then a day or two off. I notice I am taking too much when I feel very tired during the day and have much worse muscle weakness. Alternately its too small an amount if I feel like I need the meds mid day. There has been no pattern,no rhyme or reason- just constant experimentation. I would love to hear what others have to say- what have others tried, successfully or that has not helped? Maybe we can help each other out...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 80
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • [Ki...]

    39

  • [...]

    22

  • [Rh...]

    7

  • [Le...]

    5

Top Posters In This Topic

Hi Kitty , thanks so much for starting this support group! A good idea.... :)

I discovered on my own from having had my 23andme toxicology report done several years ago , that I am an ultra fast metabolizer of Valium .

It s a bit  scary that we have ' less successful outcomes" . I wonder what that means exactly? I do know that for me tapering Valium is like when I tried to taper klonopin, the WDs hit almost in 24 hours. Day three is really horrible , and I respond as if I have made an equivalent cut of a much more potent drug. I don't notice that I get interdose WDs , except that I get woken up at the same time every morning with a start, my body saying ' time for your valium'.

I take some CBD: THC at night.  Which I know also inhibits the same liver enzymes , not sure if this is a good or a bad thing? !

Should we be on a different benzo? I made a very difficult switch from K to V and would hate to go back to where I started .....

Curcumin also inhibits the same liver enzymes I believe.

Very hard to navigate-

These are my mutations that I believe are the ones that directly effect Valium metabolism-

CYP2C19*17( ultra rapid metabolizer)+\-

CYP2D6-100C>T-+\-

CYP2D6-S486T - +\-

 

I don't know how the 2 D6 enzymes are involved , but apparantly they are.....

I dose three times a day , and actually usually split up those three doses also I tot two ,taking them about two hours apart , so pretty frequent dosing! I also find that when I take any amount it hits me like a truck! 1/2 mg knocks me out , but I can't for the life of me taper this stuff without getting bad WDs from the time st reduction. Maybe it's because it leaves the system so fast? I don't know , would love some answers!

 

Thanks again kitty , I hope we can help each other ,

Love, MiYu  :smitten:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think by " less successful outcomes " they mean most people end up switching to something else. They were not referring to tapering, just general use of the drug. Neither of our docs understood fast metabolism. I cant help but wonder- if more docs DID understand and recognized the symptoms of fast metabolism maybe they could help their patients manage better and have an easier experience. My doc would not even consider DNA reports to be useful. Good thing she wasnt an oncologist!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can say the grapefruit has made it smoother but not " easier". I am still having the same symptoms, same ups and downs, and even though I go slow- avg a half mg every 6 weeks dry cut microtaper- the only help this is is to allow me to dose once a day which does help my sleep somewhat. If I dose at all during the day it interferes with my sleep. But it really doesnt make anything easier- just more even, I guess.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can say the grapefruit has made it smoother but not " easier". I am still having the same symptoms, same ups and downs, and even though I go slow- avg a half mg every 6 weeks dry cut microtaper- the only help this is is to allow me to dose once a day which does help my sleep somewhat. If I dose at all during the day it interferes with my sleep. But it really doesnt make anything easier- just more even, I guess.

Well maybe it's worth a try for me....I wouldn't mind taking my lunch dose at night, as I don't like feeling that drowsy during the day. Are you using a scale? I don't think I'd be functional of I tried to go at that speed..... 1/2 mg every six weeks. I'm not very functional now!

I am wondering if I shouldn't try a small cut and hold approach ..... Off topic here , but I may try it ....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do use a scale. SG had recommended I reduce my dose by .001 a night which would be auound .5 mg a month, pretty average, but I seem to be able to handle that amount in 6 weeks (although Ibdid a few halves in 4 weeks)

I do think the metabolism caused more problems in my taper but no doubt it would still be rough without the grapefruit juice. Hopefully eventually others will come in and offer their experiences. Someone had posted about using tagamet but I forget where it was posted!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do use a scale. SG had recommended I reduce my dose by .001 a night which would be auound .5 mg a month, pretty average, but I seem to be able to handle that amount in 6 weeks (although Ibdid a few halves in 4 weeks)

I do think the metabolism caused more problems in my taper but no doubt it would still be rough without the grapefruit juice. Hopefully eventually others will come in and offer their experiences. Someone had posted about using tagamet but I forget where it was posted!

 

I guess not too many people concerned about rapid metabolizing at the moment! Are you able to function at your taper rate? We started our tapers at the same time, last year , and I had just had a difficult cross from K to V that took me three months. I ended up on 10 mgs ..... So we have some similarities . But my taper is going much slower than yours..... I've become hypersensitive to any cuts so am having to hold , still! Frustrated ....  >:(

MiYu

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My natural medicine doc just told me about trying bergamot. It has similar properties to grapefruit but not as potent and is in pill form, so more " predictable". I will get some next week and give it a shot.

I am really on my second taper, without realizing I messed one up a few years back. I had no idea about tolerance! I just thought I was crazy. Im sorry you are having a hard taper. Mine is tough too- I just try to keep working through it. Im going a little slower than the "average" .5 a month - dont think I would even be functional at that rate. I think my supplements help too but I have heaet stuff and menopause too...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Add me to the list. Ultrarapid CYP2C19, but normal for 3A4. I dose 4xs a day to avoid interdose WD. Initially thought I was a slow metabolizer. I was quite surprised when the results came back otherwise.

 

Years ago I took Celexa. It had no clinical efficacy so I was "tapered" off the drug. I distinctly remember how difficult it was to get off that antidepressant. Wouldn't you know, it's metabolized by CYP2C19.

 

I too am having a difficult taper. Averaging about .50 mg a month...if I'm lucky. Any faster and I'm pretty much incapacitated.

 

Miyu, FYI, CYP2D6 metabolizes opioids among  medications.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just read more info about metabolism and how hard it can be to keep things on an even keel, even with just one of the pathways being messed up. I am ultra tapid on one and rapid on the other but I do think its worth trying that bergamot instead of the grapefruit juice. Only slept about an hour last night though so no driving to the city to get it today! SNpedia is just a HUGE trough of info on drug metabolism. Maybe too much😖
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Left, I did read that I am 7x less likely to be successful with antidepressants using the SNpedia " promethius" interpreting of my data- it was only five bucks so I thought I would give it a whirl. No wonder I ended up on xanax...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Day 2 of using bergamot as a metabolism brake. I got it for my cholesterol since I do not do well on statins and mine is right at 400 ugh. Bergamot is a citrus plant, and its related to grapefruit so it inhibits the enzyme as well. But it should be easier as its more " standardized" unlike the juice. Took one pill with one tablespoon juice instead of 2 yesterday will do the pill alone today and see what happens. It may take a few days to see any difference I have no idea how long the enzyme increase/decrease takes but will let yall know. Both of you lol this is a lonely group
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A small group , but a good one! I'm glad you started it Kitty!

I'll be interested to know how the bergamot goes for you.

One thing I don't understand. , is if we have a ' variant ' on an enzyme , like we do with the CYP 19...... Mine is a +\- heterogenous ...... That's from 23 and me.....so not from both parents .

But still makes me a fast metabolizer with any kind of variant?

I guess my test wa snot the standard for testing drug metabolizm , so it doesn't give info on the report about that. But anyway , I do have some genetic mutation with this enzyme.

I dose 3 X day ,a nd every morning I wake up with a start at almost exactly 12 hours from my night dose , my body saying ' where's my Valium? ! "

 

I don't seem to get interdose WDs during the day with dosing 3 X .

 

Another question ..... I get a lot of burning in my liver area , this worries me , that somehow my lover is not clearing the drug or something. I get a lot of burning anyway , but particularly in liver  and kidney area .

 

I am holding as I became very destabilized , and can't cut anything Without getting disabling symptoms.

 

 

LEft -- welcome to the group , we can call it a group now with three of us!  I tried celexa once , OMG! The doctor said take 20 mgs , it's a low dose , and you won't get any effects fro several weeks . Well, an hour later my brain went crazy ! I was twitching and jerking all over the place , and happened to be on an accupuncture table with needles all over me . I freaked out and said get these needles out of me! Needless to say , I was saved from another potential addition on antidepressants!

 

Any thoughts on the burning liver heat?

 

Love, MiYu

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way , Kitty , I believe you have to be careful with sun exposure with bergamot .... Better check that out ... I think it increases light sensitivity , not sure exactly if it's UV or what......

 

MiYu  :smitten:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Add me to the list. Ultrarapid CYP2C19, but normal for 3A4. I dose 4xs a day to avoid interdose WD. Initially thought I was a slow metabolizer. I was quite surprised when the results came back otherwise.

 

Years ago I took Celexa. It had no clinical efficacy so I was "tapered" off the drug. I distinctly remember how difficult it was to get off that antidepressant. Wouldn't you know, it's metabolized by CYP2C19.

 

I too am having a difficult taper. Averaging about .50 mg a month...if I'm lucky. Any faster and I'm pretty much incapacitated.

 

Miyu, FYI, CYP2D6 metabolizes opioids among  medications.

 

Hmm.... I wonder if that CYP 2D6 would effect kratom metabolism ? I take a 1/2 tsp in the mornings ....helps with pain and anxiety .

 

MiYu

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did you ever " plug" your dna info into a program that " decodes" it? I did both Livwello and Promethius. Promethius was only $5 and gave me TONS of information from my reports! You might find out just what you need to know. I am ultra rapid on all the metabolites except temazepam which I am " rapid" on. So my temazepam part of my valium (who knew by taking one drug you were taking so many? :crazy:) lasts the longest. I dont really get the " depression" as much as a lot of others and temaz seems to be taken more as a recreational drug by those who do that sort of thing, so maybe that has a little to do with why some feel the depressant qualities more than others.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found it interesting that the docs kept putting me on SSRIs for so long when none worked, all made me cry or not sleep- just the opposite of what I needed. Then tried buspar, which apparently helps " regulate" serotonin- gets rid of it if you have too much I guess? I slept better and was not as anxious but I also felt flat as a pancake. Nothing was really good but nothing really bad. I stopped that after a year. But every SSRI made me feel horrible.

 

As for that burning- I just cant imagine how metabolism could directly affect your liver itself as its just an enzyme the liver produces. I was under the impression the action took place in the gut. I will have to re read up on this stuff now. Hopefully thats just one of those benzo things- like forgetting how to spell very simple words and having to go back and modify everything lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found it interesting that the docs kept putting me on SSRIs for so long when none worked, all made me cry or not sleep- just the opposite of what I needed. Then tried buspar, which apparently helps " regulate" serotonin- gets rid of it if you have too much I guess? I slept better and was not as anxious but I also felt flat as a pancake. Nothing was really good but nothing really bad. I stopped that after a year. But every SSRI made me feel horrible.

 

As for that burning- I just cant imagine how metabolism could directly affect your liver itself as its just an enzyme the liver produces. I was under the impression the action took place in the gut. I will have to re read up on this stuff now. Hopefully thats just one of those benzo things- like forgetting how to spell very simple words and having to go back and modify everything lol

 

Yes!  :) thanks Kitty , fro all the very helpful info .... I'm going to check out Promethius and see what it has to say ... I have tons of variants in my genetics .... Gets so complicated and I've never been able to make sense of it! Burning is one of my main symptoms . It tends to be all in my mid section, flesh and organs is what it feels like , but who knows! So weird !  :o

Wish I could start to taper again , but I'm still too sick :( not going to rush this even if V is horrible , WDs are worse!

 

MiYu  :smitten:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bergamot update. I started using BERGAMOT BPF by Ortho Molecular Products a few days ago. So far it seems to be a little more " even" than the grapefruit juice. It may just be a little stronger or it may just be that its a quantifiably stable amount as opposed to slurping a few tablespoons of juice which probably varies from bottle to bottle. I hope to stay on it because of my cholesterol but it sure will be a good bonus if it helps with my taper. I had a few jolts the past few days but I think that was from going in to donate platelets and they took plasma too so they probably stole some of my V reserves too...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My natural med guy wants me on 1 g for the cholesterol, but since it works on the drug pathway Im starting at 1/2 dose for a week or so still taking a little insurance grapefruit. Its a bad time to test it with my plasma donation mess but whats a girl to do....
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My natural med guy wants me on 1 g for the cholesterol, but since it works on the drug pathway Im starting at 1/2 dose for a week or so still taking a little insurance grapefruit. Its a bad time to test it with my plasma donation mess but whats a girl to do....

 

I looked up the brand  and I see it comes in 500 mg caps..... I actually have low cholesterol, so not sure it'd be great for me. Thinking of trying a little grapefruit juice though for starters . Have you noticed any effects from your plasma donation? I can't believe you could even go and do that , have a needle stuck in your arm and all that while going through benzo WD! Wow....

MiYu

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...