Jump to content

Hold or Updose?


[ch...]

Recommended Posts

Hey all, hope you're doing alright.

 

I am currently on 23 mg of valium a day after dropping from 120 mg over the course of 3 months. I was not on such a high dose of valium for very long, I was only on such a high dose because I decided to come to this treatment center in Malibu which claimed to utilize the Ashton method. Being deathly afraid to fly, I decided to drive. I called the treatment center and doctors for advice, and they told to me to "take whatever I needed to get there". So, for a few days, I was taking up to 150 mg a day of valium while in the car ride to Malibu from Pittsburgh, PA.

 

My long term "standard" dose, which I was on for roughly a year, from late 2021 to late 2022 (exact dates are unclear), was 2 mg of klonopin with 10 mg of valium. In addition to that, I was drinking fairly frequently.

 

I have made it down to 23 mg now (with the help of 2400 mg/day of gabapentin) and have hit was feels like an insurmountable wall. I am having daily severe anxiety and panic attacks. Crying spells. My left foot is constantly shaking (I can make it stop if I focus on it). Sudden drastic mood swings correlated with my doses. Akathisia at times. Feeling constantly like I am going to die.

 

Long story short, I have no idea how to proceed. Do I try to grit my teeth and hold at 23 mg in the hope that I stabilize or should I push my doctors to updose back to 25/30? My cut from 25 to 23 happened on February 24th, and I have been in hell since then.

 

Looking for any advice or support, thanks.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 67
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • [ch...]

    28

  • [Be...]

    10

  • [ke...]

    8

  • [je...]

    7

I personally am not a fan of suffering. I feel we endure enough through this and if there's a way to make this more bearable then I'd take it. From what I've seen if you've tapered too fast then generally an updose works. I know you have not been on 120mg for a long time initially but you also tapered down from it, giving your body ample time to get used to higher doses. I do think you tapered too fast.

 

If it were me, I would try an updose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any idea of a general range to updose to? Worried I’m kindled now and screwed. Last time I felt remotely functional was at 35-40 mg. Doctors at this facility I’m at are also completely benzo ignorant and keep trying to put me on Zyprexa or antidepressants. I have an appointment with an apparently benzowise doc on the 24th. Maybe he can steer me in the right direction.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Go to where you last felt functional to try and stabilize.

You don't want months of wasting away bedridden like O was after a 40% cut by my doctor.

 

But holy moly 120 mg, and you were able to drive? How do you do it? I was oversedated at the equivalent of 10 mg. Like in a huge thick fog.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any idea of a general range to updose to? Worried I’m kindled now and screwed. Last time I felt remotely functional was at 35-40 mg. Doctors at this facility I’m at are also completely benzo ignorant and keep trying to put me on Zyprexa or antidepressants. I have an appointment with an apparently benzowise doc on the 24th. Maybe he can steer me in the right direction.

 

How long have you been holding at 23mg? And when were you at 35mg?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've already been on a high dose of gabapentin for 3 months now. I'm afraid I might be "locked" into it  at this point and maybe it's not a good idea to taper off of it right now, given how severe my other symptoms are.

 

I really want to go back up to 25 or 30 but docs at this facility won't budge, given the fact that it's an addiction treatment facility first and not exactly an "ashton taper facility", even though it was advertised that way on their website.

 

@jelly baby

 

Been holding at 23 mg since Feb 24th. I think I was on 35 mg some time in mid january/feb.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would suggest a 10mg increase and see how it goes. But keep in mind it might take a while before it starts working. But I'm not sure how you're going to do that if the facility won't let you?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

were you stable at 25MG V?  With your history you should have started on like 50MG of Valium, took like a month and got stable then started coming off it.  2MG Klonopin is 40MG valium, plus you were taking 10MG of V on top of that. If you were on 35MG of V in Feb and are now on 23MG, you should only be going down 1MG every 10 days max, so thats 3MG a month. I know those centers want to push it to get you out of there so they can say your cured bye. Its a cash grab. If it was me, i dont know your situation but id get out of there and find a benzo wise doc......get yourself stable on whatever dose that is then start coming down 1MG at a time.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm still in the facility in Malibu. I found a benzowise doctor in downtown LA and reached out to a couple other people I found through the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition, but I can't meet with the one doc until the 24th and then there comes the question of living accomadations. I would have to get an AirBnB or something and end up living alone and self tapering in a city where I know exactly two other people. Also, how would that prescriber switch even work? Could I get the new doc to talk to the current one or something so that there would be no disruption in my meds? I'm really between a rock and a hard place.

 

I have no idea what to do or how to proceed here. The doctors at this facility that has been advertised as using the Ashton method won't even speak to me or hear out my concerns. Everytime I speak to them, they just try to push psych meds on me. I've told the nursing staff countless times now how much I am suffering and need to speak to somebody or have something done. I've called the paramedics twice now due to severe panic attacks.

 

Even if I do find a benzowise doc, I have no idea how I'm going to be able to handle the stress of moving into an airbnb all by myself. I can barely even drive as it is. How the heck am I going to get to a doctors appointment?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm still in the facility in Malibu. I found a benzowise doctor in downtown LA and reached out to a couple other people I found through the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition, but I can't meet with the one doc until the 24th and then there comes the question of living accomadations. I would have to get an AirBnB or something and end up living alone and self tapering in a city where I know exactly two other people. Also, how would that prescriber switch even work? Could I get the new doc to talk to the current one or something so that there would be no disruption in my meds? I'm really between a rock and a hard place.

 

I have no idea what to do or how to proceed here. The doctors at this facility that has been advertised as using the Ashton method won't even speak to me or hear out my concerns. Everytime I speak to them, they just try to push psych meds on me. I've told the nursing staff countless times now how much I am suffering and need to speak to somebody or have something done. I've called the paramedics twice now due to severe panic attacks.

 

Even if I do find a benzowise doc, I have no idea how I'm going to be able to handle the stress of moving into an airbnb all by myself. I can barely even drive as it is. How the heck am I going to get to a doctors appointment?

 

Hi- Just jumping in.  Do you have a copy of the program where they say they are a “Ashton Method” treatment facility, or advertise as one? I would be extremely upset if a facility I was paying for billed themselves as offering something and then didn’t.

 

A benzo doctor, who took you on as a patient should be able to get your medication to you on the same day, and you would then be in charge of your own withdrawal program moving forward.  Is there anyway that this doctor can see you sooner? Could he see you via Zoom? Could you Uber?

 

I am also confuse about the dosage @ 100+mg. 2mgK is = to 40mg of V + the 10mg you were on, even at 50mg at a starting point, it seems like you have been tapered extremely fast.  This would not have been consistent with Ashland.  Also, if they were “Ashland” savvy, they would have had to cross you over from the K to V, and that takes about 6 weeks.  Did they do that? 

 

So yes, holding IMO is an extremely good idea at this point, and like suggested maybe even updosing until you get stabilized.  I would be very careful on updosing….what goes up, must come down.  Yet, you don’t want to end up dysfunctional and bedridden either, and it is so easy to happen with benzo w/d, especially if it is done to quickly.  This is why these detox center’s aren’t looked at very favorably.  Tapering slowly off benzo’s is a much better method, but they can’t make money off of that.

 

I’m so sorry that you are in a place that is trying to rapid detox you.  Hang in there.

 

Marie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for the input howmany, updosing just seems so attractive right now given the pain that I am in. You do make a very eloquent argument against it though: "what goes up must come down"

 

I'm just worried that in my current state that I am going to damage my brain more than it needs to be and end up with permanent PAWS. But I am not having seizures, just extreme anxiety 24/7 and daily panic attacks and some pretty heavy duty intrusive thoughts/feelings. I am also having heart palpitations here and there and I shoot awake at 5-6 am every morning.

 

Thankfully I successfully crossed over to the valium from the klonopin myself before I got here. They did the taper WAY too quickly, but at least it wasn't a 7 or 14 day detox or something. Regardless, it is still false advertising, and has nothing to do with the Ashton method other than utilizing valium.

 

I just got off the phone with my doc here, and she prescribed me 7.5 mg Remeron as a PRN. Don't know whether to take that or not. I've read about it helping some people get off the benzos but then they end up having to taper off of that too.

 

These detox centers really are not the place to do it. Everything that has been said in this thread about them is correct.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's important to get you in a better place symptoms wise so you feel you can function again. I updosed twice and I never regretted it because I was bedridden and so severely sick. I got better and was able to taper once I felt stable.

 

Do you have family or friends that can get you home and would the doctor that prescribed the Valium for the crossover be able to continue to prescribe it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was told that if I left this place they would give me a months worth of valium and a month + a refill of all my other meds, so that I had a chance to find a new doc and get my bearings. I would like to be home but I don’t know how to make the journey. As I said I am deathly afraid of flying and car rides are also difficult, so I don’t know what to do. My best thought is to get an Airbnb or something in LA and then work with the new prescriber.

 

I’m hoping the Remeron may give me some quality of life back since at this point I am essentially crippled. I just spent probably half an hour reading through the Remeron withdrawal support thread, so I’m well aware that Remeron has its own issues.

 

When you updosed were the benzos just as effective as before or did you notice a decrease in their effectiveness?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, how you do this is up to you, but it may take extended time to get stable and I don't know what your financial situation is. It would also help your anxiety and stress if you're able to find a new prescriber first. But I do understand how difficult it is to stay in the facility when you don't have the moral support to do what you feel is best. Just know we will support you whatever you decide to do.

 

When I updosed, I never felt "normal" again like I felt on benzo's. When I was on Clonazepam I reached a state of perceived normalness. My life was good and I felt fine. After my huge reductions and subsequent updoses I never felt like that again or like I felt prior to benzo's. BUT after my big reductions I was like an invalid. I couldn't move out of my bed, I couldn't take care of myself, I just felt extremely sick. Then I updosed and I became functional again. I was able to return to work, take care of my family etc. I haven't had the "normal life" feeling again, but I didn't updose to my original dose and I've never been in benzo hell since my updosing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just my suggestion because this is all so confusing, If you are under supervision and they want to take you to zero and give you AD's, maybe consider rolling with that. I am doubtful that you can get off on your own. I did this myself inpatient. It will be harsh, but get you moneys worth and be done with it imo.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried getting off at home with family support and everything, and for whatever reason it just wasn't working. That's why I'm now leaning strongly towards taking the Remeron they prescribed me and just gritting my teeth and getting to 0. I can stay where I'm at for another 3 months.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What was your experience like with that 22 day taper Keagan?

 

It sucked, but it had to be done. I survived ok. Left the hospital on my own 2 feet feeling lousy but I got back to life. I was also treated for horrible depression at the same time. The AD's helped me get through all of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried getting off at home with family support and everything, and for whatever reason it just wasn't working. That's why I'm now leaning strongly towards taking the Remeron they prescribed me and just gritting my teeth and getting to 0. I can stay where I'm at for another 3 months.

 

Jelly Belly makes a very good point on updosing and feeling much better so that you don’t become bed-ridden.  However, I see that you say that you have tried getting off benzo’s at home with family support and for whatever reason that just wasn’t working….so you are now in a rehab for supervised w/d and therapy.  Obviously this complicates things much more.  You would have to be in control enough to be able to supervise your own detox, to be able to updose/stabilize and then go slow and minimize sx.  It sounds like you would once again need the support of your family but also need to attend meetings, and utilize outside recourses as well.  Only you can decide if this is something you are capable of doing.

 

We are here for you in whatever path you choose and hope you get the support that you need to feel better.

 

Marie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I forgot to mention Keagan…he has obviously been through it too, and knows from experience and maybe for certain people this is the best option.

 

Marie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the big difference then was I was trying to go way too fast, and I had no idea what the whole process would entail. I was just alone and afraid. I also think switching over from the klonopin to the valium abruptly really threw me down a rabbit hole, because I was taking 2 mg of klonopin + 10 mg of valium, but my doctor would only prescribe 40 mg of valium a day. I did the conversion and thought making a 10 mg cut at once would be a big deal. I think I was desperately wrong.

 

I am checking myself out of this facility today/tomorrow and am going to updose myself back to where I feel somewhat functional, then try to hit this thing from a different angle and without arrogant, know-it-all docs trying to control the speed of my taper.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My experience is in my signature, however, I rapid tapered valium and immediately re-instated to my original dose when panic and severe insomnia hit me head on.  I did not feel any better after re-instating but it is possible that I was going to get worse.  Who knows, however, it did make me think and realize that it was going to require some sort of serious updose to even possibly make me feel better.  With kind and positive words from members here, I made the decision to hold for 4 months (instead of updosing valium) but also made a difficult decision to add 7.5mg mirtazapine knowing the risk that I would have to taper off in the future.  I felt I had to do something to better stabilize for my family, to work, and to continue my taper.  Holding alone for 2 months straight did not seem to be helping by itself so that's when I made the decision to add 7.5mg mirtazapine.  Both the hold and/or adding 7.5 mirtazapine allowed me to regain some resemblance of "stability". 

 

I do not sleep well, but most nights are better than the 0-3 hours I was getting and closer to 4-6 hrs (albeit broken and a lot of dream).  My panic and fear have not disappeared, but both are also much better.  The panic and "fight or flight" has minimized and my new normal is beginning to sink in.  In essence,  I am learning to accept my situation which is helping.  The only way out is through it, and I have come to realize I'm not going to find an easy button.  Extreme patience and hope has been required for me as it got really dark (and still can occasionally).  I realize I am going to have to taper off of 3 medications now and am better accepting of that fact.  "It is what it is" mentality. 

 

As a result, I was able to reduce to 10.5mg valium from 11mg valium (4.5% reduction) 8 days ago, and I fortunately feel no different so far than I did 8 days prior.  I believe it is because I was confident and felt ready to make a reduction.  This is only my experience and everyone is different, but felt I should pass along my story and experience to you as there are similarities in our stories.  Someone has always been kind enough to pass along their experience with me when they were in similar situations and really helped me.  Winter's sun and open road both gave me hope and guidance when I was hopeless and lost.  You can search my post threads and see their kind words to me over the past 5 months.  Hopefully something in this post is helpful to you.  Bless you, friend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the big difference then was I was trying to go way too fast, and I had no idea what the whole process would entail. I was just alone and afraid. I also think switching over from the klonopin to the valium abruptly really threw me down a rabbit hole, because I was taking 2 mg of klonopin + 10 mg of valium, but my doctor would only prescribe 40 mg of valium a day. I did the conversion and thought making a 10 mg cut at once would be a big deal. I think I was desperately wrong.

 

I am checking myself out of this facility today/tomorrow and am going to updose myself back to where I feel somewhat functional, then try to hit this thing from a different angle and without arrogant, know-it-all docs trying to control the speed of my taper.

 

If you did an abrupt c/o to from K to V, then YES, and reduced by 10mg..double YES…OMG…that is enough to cause chaos from the start.  I did a rapid c/o from K to V way too fast and was in absolute hell.  I barely stabilized and did the Ashton step down from 20mg on that protocol, until I got to 10 and was just miserable and held for a month and got my bearings under me a “bit”.  I still struggled until I quit doing dry cuts and went to a daily hybid micro taper with pills and liquid, and finally figured out I had to reduce very slowly.  I did so much damage in the beginning that I think I just fried my CNS.

 

It sounds like you have made a decision and with the help of a benzo savvy doctor you will feel better and make a good taper plan to get off of the benzo’s.  Cheers :thumbsup:

 

Marie

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...