At home liquid titration

[[Buddie]]

Hi Faith

It’s best to explain it in terms of the solid form tablet. If your beginning dose is 10mg valium per day, and you reduce by 1mg at a time, your initial reduction will be 10% of that 10mg’s (down to 9mg), but if you keep reducing by that 1mg at each cut, by the time you get to 5mg’s, your next 1mg reduction will be a 20% reduction - 20% of 5mg. Once you got down to 2mg’s remaining, if you cut another 1mg, it would be a 50% reduction in dose. The brain doesn’t experience the reduction as just another 1mg cut, it experiences it in terms of the percentage that is being removed from its daily needs, so you can see the shock that this would cause to the brain as the reduction percentage climbs higher and higher. Can you see how removing that same 1ml every day creates the same issue?

I should say - this is just about the basic water taper where you remove an extra 1ml from each daily mixture, as used by Jocelyn on the Benzo Brains YouTube channel.

[[Buddie]]

Hi Faith

It’s best to explain it in terms of the solid form tablet. If your beginning dose is 10mg valium per day, and you reduce by 1mg at a time, your initial reduction will be 10% of that 10mg’s (down to 9mg), but if you keep reducing by that 1mg at each cut, by the time you get to 5mg’s, your next 1mg reduction will be a 20% reduction - 20% of 5mg. Once you got down to 2mg’s remaining, if you cut another 1mg, it would be a 50% reduction in dose. The brain doesn’t experience the reduction as just another 1mg cut, it experiences it in terms of the percentage that is being removed from its daily needs, so you can see the shock that this would cause to the brain as the reduction percentage climbs higher and higher. Can you see how removing that same 1ml every day creates the same issue?

This is where I state upfront that I am very challenged by numbers.  Just gonna be straight up.

I struggled with this concept from the beginning.  I wanted to ensure that I was taking a percentage away from the current dose, not the original dose.  I thought I had managed to do that by the way I set things up (with the help of a friend).  As I said...not mathematically inclined.  But, have I accomplished that?

I have a scale I purchased.  What led me to do a water taper was the fact that cognitively I just couldn't get my you know what together.  So, I opted for something less complicated for me.

I use 250ml water twice a day.  I drop my .5 mg tab in the 250 ml water.  I pull .5ml every other day.  So, each dose I am starting with a full tab.  I do the same at night...drop my tablet into 250 ml water and pull .5ml out every other day.  So, you are saying that I am increasing my removed dosage more than the intended percentage by this method?  By calculations, it shows to be a total of 1.4% per 28 day cycle...steadily based on the new current dose at the beginning the new 28 day cycle.

If your answer is yes, I am going to have to say I give...I can't wrap my head around it.  And, this is where a good ol' conversation would be so much easier than typing this out.  I know this convo is going to be frustrating because this just isn't my forte.

I understand what you are saying with the dry pill...but, you are describing taking 1mg off each time rather than the new current dose.  So, 10% should now be figured out from 9mgs of Valium, and 10% at the current dose of 5mg of Valium.  I had thought I had accounted for that.  Honestly, not sure now.

   

[[Buddie]]

Hi Faith

It’s best to explain it in terms of the solid form tablet. If your beginning dose is 10mg valium per day, and you reduce by 1mg at a time, your initial reduction will be 10% of that 10mg’s (down to 9mg), but if you keep reducing by that 1mg at each cut, by the time you get to 5mg’s, your next 1mg reduction will be a 20% reduction - 20% of 5mg. Once you got down to 2mg’s remaining, if you cut another 1mg, it would be a 50% reduction in dose. The brain doesn’t experience the reduction as just another 1mg cut, it experiences it in terms of the percentage that is being removed from its daily needs, so you can see the shock that this would cause to the brain as the reduction percentage climbs higher and higher. Can you see how removing that same 1ml every day creates the same issue?

This is where I state upfront that I am very challenged by numbers.  Just gonna be straight up.

I struggled with this concept from the beginning.  I wanted to ensure that I was taking a percentage away from the current dose, not the original dose.  I thought I had managed to do that by the way I set things up (with the help of a friend).  As I said...not mathematically inclined.  But, have I accomplished that?

I have a scale I purchased.  What led me to do a water taper was the fact that cognitively I just couldn't get my you know what together.  So, I opted for something less complicated for me.

I use 250ml water twice a day.  I drop my .5 mg tab in the 250 ml water.  I pull .5ml every other day.  So, each dose I am starting with a full tab.  I do the same at night...drop my tablet into 250 ml water and pull .5ml out every other day.  So, you are saying that I am increasing my removed dosage more than the intended percentage by this method?  By calculations, it shows to be a total of 1.4% per 28 day cycle...steadily based on the new current dose at the beginning the new 28 day cycle.

If your answer is yes, I am going to have to say I give...I can't wrap my head around it.  And, this is where a good ol' conversation would be so much easier than typing this out.  I know this convo is going to be frustrating because this just isn't my forte.

I understand what you are saying with the dry pill...but, you are describing taking 1mg off each time rather than the new current dose.  So, 10% should now be figured out from 9mgs of Valium, and 10% at the current dose of 5mg of Valium.  I had thought I had accounted for that.  Honestly, not sure now.

   

Yes, you’re right, a conversation would be so much easier, but we have to work with what we have, so we’ll just try and nut this out as best we can 

Let’s simplify this and do a very short taper.

If you crushed and dissolved a 0.5mg tablet in 50ml of water and removed 5ml from the mixture, that would be a 10% reduction. You remove that same 5ml from the mixture the next day and every day after until you are ready to reduce again. When you are ready to reduce again, you remove that same 5ml + another 5ml from the remaining 45ml = 40ml, and that extra 5ml is now more than a 10% reduction from the remaining 45ml. And that percentage keeps climbing as you lower by the same 5ml amount at each reduction. Once you’re at 25ml, the next 5ml cut would be a 20% reduction in dose… 25ml’s down to 20ml’s, and once you got down to 10ml’s, your next cut would be a 50% reduction from 10ml’s down to 5ml’s.

Is this making more sense?

The only difference is that you’re starting with 250ml’s of water and reducing by 0.5ml’s, rather than starting with 50ml’s and reducing by 5ml’s. But the amount you reduce by remains the same. In both tapers, the reduction percentage climbs (at each reduction) because the same amount is being removed from a dose that is always lowering.

[[Buddie]]

Hi Faith

It’s best to explain it in terms of the solid form tablet. If your beginning dose is 10mg valium per day, and you reduce by 1mg at a time, your initial reduction will be 10% of that 10mg’s (down to 9mg), but if you keep reducing by that 1mg at each cut, by the time you get to 5mg’s, your next 1mg reduction will be a 20% reduction - 20% of 5mg. Once you got down to 2mg’s remaining, if you cut another 1mg, it would be a 50% reduction in dose. The brain doesn’t experience the reduction as just another 1mg cut, it experiences it in terms of the percentage that is being removed from its daily needs, so you can see the shock that this would cause to the brain as the reduction percentage climbs higher and higher. Can you see how removing that same 1ml every day creates the same issue?

This is where I state upfront that I am very challenged by numbers.  Just gonna be straight up.

I struggled with this concept from the beginning.  I wanted to ensure that I was taking a percentage away from the current dose, not the original dose.  I thought I had managed to do that by the way I set things up (with the help of a friend).  As I said...not mathematically inclined.  But, have I accomplished that?

I have a scale I purchased.  What led me to do a water taper was the fact that cognitively I just couldn't get my you know what together.  So, I opted for something less complicated for me.

I use 250ml water twice a day.  I drop my .5 mg tab in the 250 ml water.  I pull .5ml every other day.  So, each dose I am starting with a full tab.  I do the same at night...drop my tablet into 250 ml water and pull .5ml out every other day.  So, you are saying that I am increasing my removed dosage more than the intended percentage by this method?  By calculations, it shows to be a total of 1.4% per 28 day cycle...steadily based on the new current dose at the beginning the new 28 day cycle.

If your answer is yes, I am going to have to say I give...I can't wrap my head around it.  And, this is where a good ol' conversation would be so much easier than typing this out.  I know this convo is going to be frustrating because this just isn't my forte.

I understand what you are saying with the dry pill...but, you are describing taking 1mg off each time rather than the new current dose.  So, 10% should now be figured out from 9mgs of Valium, and 10% at the current dose of 5mg of Valium.  I had thought I had accounted for that.  Honestly, not sure now.

   

Yes, you’re right, a conversation would be so much easier, but we have to work with what we have, so we’ll just try and nut this out as best we can 

Let’s simplify this and do a very short taper.

If you crushed and dissolved a 0.5mg tablet in 50ml of water and removed 5ml from the mixture, that would be a 10% reduction. You remove that same 5ml from the mixture the next day and every day after until you are ready to reduce again. When you are ready to reduce again, you remove that same 5ml + another 5ml from the remaining 45ml = 40ml, and that extra 5ml is now more than a 10% reduction from the remaining 45ml. And that percentage keeps climbing as you lower by the same 5ml amount at each reduction. Once you’re at 25ml, the next 5ml cut would be a 20% reduction in dose… 25ml’s down to 20ml’s, and once you got down to 10ml’s, your next cut would be a 50% reduction from 10ml’s down to 5ml’s.

Is this making more sense?

The only difference is that you’re starting with 250ml’s of water and reducing by 0.5ml’s, rather than starting with 50ml’s and reducing by 5ml’s. But the amount you reduce by remains the same. In both tapers, the reduction percentage climbs (at each reduction) because the same amount is being removed from a dose that is always lowering.

It’s just that in your taper, the reduction percentage is increasing in much smaller increments, but it is increasing.

[[Buddie]]

Hi Faith

It’s best to explain it in terms of the solid form tablet. If your beginning dose is 10mg valium per day, and you reduce by 1mg at a time, your initial reduction will be 10% of that 10mg’s (down to 9mg), but if you keep reducing by that 1mg at each cut, by the time you get to 5mg’s, your next 1mg reduction will be a 20% reduction - 20% of 5mg. Once you got down to 2mg’s remaining, if you cut another 1mg, it would be a 50% reduction in dose. The brain doesn’t experience the reduction as just another 1mg cut, it experiences it in terms of the percentage that is being removed from its daily needs, so you can see the shock that this would cause to the brain as the reduction percentage climbs higher and higher. Can you see how removing that same 1ml every day creates the same issue?

This is where I state upfront that I am very challenged by numbers.  Just gonna be straight up.

I struggled with this concept from the beginning.  I wanted to ensure that I was taking a percentage away from the current dose, not the original dose.  I thought I had managed to do that by the way I set things up (with the help of a friend).  As I said...not mathematically inclined.  But, have I accomplished that?

I have a scale I purchased.  What led me to do a water taper was the fact that cognitively I just couldn't get my you know what together.  So, I opted for something less complicated for me.

I use 250ml water twice a day.  I drop my .5 mg tab in the 250 ml water.  I pull .5ml every other day.  So, each dose I am starting with a full tab.  I do the same at night...drop my tablet into 250 ml water and pull .5ml out every other day.  So, you are saying that I am increasing my removed dosage more than the intended percentage by this method?  By calculations, it shows to be a total of 1.4% per 28 day cycle...steadily based on the new current dose at the beginning the new 28 day cycle.

If your answer is yes, I am going to have to say I give...I can't wrap my head around it.  And, this is where a good ol' conversation would be so much easier than typing this out.  I know this convo is going to be frustrating because this just isn't my forte.

I understand what you are saying with the dry pill...but, you are describing taking 1mg off each time rather than the new current dose.  So, 10% should now be figured out from 9mgs of Valium, and 10% at the current dose of 5mg of Valium.  I had thought I had accounted for that.  Honestly, not sure now.

   

Yes, you’re right, a conversation would be so much easier, but we have to work with what we have, so we’ll just try and nut this out as best we can 

Let’s simplify this and do a very short taper.

If you crushed and dissolved a 0.5mg tablet in 50ml of water and removed 5ml from the mixture, that would be a 10% reduction. You remove that same 5ml from the mixture the next day and every day after until you are ready to reduce again. When you are ready to reduce again, you remove that same 5ml + another 5ml from the remaining 45ml = 40ml, and that extra 5ml is now more than a 10% reduction from the remaining 45ml. And that percentage keeps climbing as you lower by the same 5ml amount at each reduction. Once you’re at 25ml, the next 5ml cut would be a 20% reduction in dose… 25ml’s down to 20ml’s, and once you got down to 10ml’s, your next cut would be a 50% reduction from 10ml’s down to 5ml’s.

Is this making more sense?

The only difference is that you’re starting with 250ml’s of water and reducing by 0.5ml’s, rather than starting with 50ml’s and reducing by 5ml’s. But the amount you reduce by remains the same. In both tapers, the reduction percentage climbs (at each reduction) because the same amount is being removed from a dose that is always lowering.

It’s just that in your taper, the reduction percentage is increasing in much smaller increments, but it is increasing.

When I resume, I am going to have to figure this out.  As I don't have a pill weight at this time.  And, I don't know how to ensure I am not increasing beyond the desired percentage drop.  My brain just can't do it.  Not right now, anyway.

[[Buddie]]

Please don’t make this into another problem to solve in your mind. We’ll work through it together, all in good time. 

[[Buddie]]

So I have a few math equations I'll do my best to share here. Maybe a member will see a flaw and bring it to my attention if not then maybe it will be useful to someone.

I used the ML of water as the constant as I would be taking out 1ml per day so I would be able to use math to find out what dose in MG I was at and where I would need to hold. This is all based on the simple daily taper.

The numbers below are high drop and fast taper but it can be slown down in duration of taper by increasing the original milliliters you start with.

Let's say we're going to start with 90 mL of water to dissolve the pills in. For this equation I'm working with a 0.5mg pill.
Since we are removing 1ml of water a day ontop of the previous reduction (1,2,3,4...) whatever ml you start with will determine the length of the taper.

90ml = 3 months
120ml = 4 months
150ml = 5 months
300ml = 10 months

.5 ÷ 90 = 0.0056 (this let's us know how many mg are in 1 ml of water)

0.0056 x 10 = 0.056 (this would be the amount you are reducing in mg over a 10 day cycle)

Because like they have stated it is a non-linear drop as you get lower the dose reductions will become greater, therefore overall:

90ml/0.5mg = 33% reduction a month from starting dose = 11% every 10 days.

I'd like to reiterate this method leaves you removing 11% every 10 days from STARTING DOSE not 11% from your current tapered dose.

To find the % out for a 10 day cycle:
0.056 ÷ 0.5 × 100 = 11.2%

11.2% x 3 = 33.6% a month. (3 10 day cycles in a month)

If someone has decided to switch from dry and has already started tapering but has become confused how to know how much water to remove when they start. Let's say you are down to 0.4375mg a day:

0.4375 ÷ 0.0056 = 78
90 - 78 = 12

You have already made it to 12ml of water being removed.

ML - DOSE
90 - 0.5
85 - 0.476
80 - 0.448
75 - 0.42
70 - 0.392
65 - 0.364
60 - 0.336
55 - 0.308
50 - 0.28
45 - 0.252 (at this point in theory you could use 1 pill 0.25 and 45ml, consume the entire amount but then you would start back at removing 1ml of water the next day)
40 - 0.224
35 - 0.196
30 - 0.168
25 - 0.14
20 - 0.112
15 - 0.084
10 - 0.056
5 - 0.028
0 - 0

If you needed to find out what dose it was if you get stuck and lets say you are at 63 ml removed:

90 - 63 = 27ml you are consuming
27 x 0.0056 = 0.1512mg

If you do decide to use 1 pill at the half way mark and start logging each day forward with the 1ml removal for your records and need to do the above math to find out the mg. Let's say you've now removed 16ml of the 45ml/0.25mg

45 + 16 = 61ml removed
90 - 61 = 29ml consumed
29 x 0.0056 = 0.1624mg

This is very rapid and most people will not agree with going this fast, I wrote this all down before I decide to slow things down a bit. I just hope the math is easy to use and put your own numbers in

[[Buddie]]

Thank you, for going to the trouble of writing that out, [...]

I’m sure that will be very helpful to many!

Much appreciated!

[[Buddie]]

My pleasure, I've received so much help and guidance from here least I can do is try to extend that to someone else.

It also helps me, after clicking post I reflected on the fact I was able to do that math in this state. Makes me feel not as far gone as sometimes my brain wants me to believe I am.

[[Buddie]]

My pleasure, I've received so much help and guidance from here least I can do is try to extend that to someone else.

It also helps me, after clicking post I reflected on the fact I was able to do that math in this state. Makes me feel not as far gone as sometimes my brain wants me to believe I am.

You rock, [...]!