Jump to content

Getting Help for first time using Water Titration


[rj...]

Recommended Posts

Im new to the group but been following BB for a few weeks so bare with me.  ::)

I've been tapering Clonazepam and currently on 0.125mg. I need help on water titration please cause I am a short term user of Clonazepam.

 

History:

10/28/22  -was prescribed 1mg Rivotril every night for sleep anxiety

11/22 - downdosing from 1mg- 0.5mg mild W/D and tolerated

12/20/23 - felt ok and C/T

after 2weeks - rebound anxiety

01/01/23- reinstated 0.5mg

after a month -rapid Tapered 50% reduction (not a good choice bad W/D but sucked it up and tolerated) 0.5mg- 0.25 - 0.125mg

Current Day : stabilized 0.125mg

 

Need a slow taper or advise what taper % reduction and want to use water titration.

 

Thank you Benzo Buddies! Great to be part of this group  ::)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know what country you're from but if you're using the name Rivotril then you should be able to get liquid Rivotril prescribed. It's much more reliable to use the liquid from the manufacturer than making your own liquid at home.

 

Would that be an option for you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know what country you're from but if you're using the name Rivotril then you should be able to get liquid Rivotril prescribed. It's much more reliable to use the liquid from the manufacturer than making your own liquid at home.

 

Would that be an option for you?

 

Can I ask for a titration table or instruction? if using milk or water. I'm pretty confused of my 0.125mg Clonazepam on what to start. Planning a 20% reduction per month using DMT too would be helpful.

 

Thank you so much in advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might just want to read through this post I wrote about tapering the end. Just to see if you understand the difference between percentages and linear tapering and why you might need to change your approach when you get closer to the end. Then we can chat and see what you think will work best for you. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=275221.0
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In addition to reading jelly baby’s post, we need to know the strength of the tablets you are using. 

 

Also, do you have a history of taking/discontinuing benzodiazepines or other psychotropic drugs (e.g. Z-drugs, antidepressants, stimulants, antispsychotics)?

 

Are you taking any medications or supplements that interact with clonazepam? If so, what?

 

It would be helpful if you would add your tapering and medication history to your signature.  That way members will have the information they need to respond to your questions in one place. Here are the instructions: Add your history/signature

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might just want to read through this post I wrote about tapering the end. Just to see if you understand the difference between percentages and linear tapering and why you might need to change your approach when you get closer to the end. Then we can chat and see what you think will work best for you. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=275221.0

 

thank you so much for the advise. so means direct cutting and use Gram scale in weighting your tabs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In addition to reading jelly baby’s post, we need to know the strength of the tablets you are using. 

 

Also, do you have a history of taking/discontinuing benzodiazepines or other psychotropic drugs (e.g. Z-drugs, antidepressants, stimulants, antispsychotics)?

 

Are you taking any medications or supplements that interact with clonazepam? If so, what?

 

It would be helpful if you would add your tapering and medication history to your signature.  That way members will have the information they need to respond to your questions in one place. Here are the instructions: Add your history/signature

 

alright. done it :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might just want to read through this post I wrote about tapering the end. Just to see if you understand the difference between percentages and linear tapering and why you might need to change your approach when you get closer to the end. Then we can chat and see what you think will work best for you. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=275221.0

 

thank you so much for the advise. so means direct cutting and use Gram scale in weighting your tabs?

 

No, you can use any method you like to taper down to zero whether weighing or liquid. You said you wanted to taper 20% per month. If you stick to percentages you'll never finish. It will always be 20% of something. Does this make sense? At some point you'll have to go down in fixed increments/linear tapering. This however means your percentages will increase. It's up to you when you decide to switch to increments. Many people change to increments around the 0.125mg range.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We just need to know what size pills you have and if you want to taper using percentages or making linear reductions i.e. reducing by a fixed amount per day.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We just need to know what size pills you have and if you want to taper using percentages or making linear reductions i.e. reducing by a fixed amount per day.

 

I’m having 0.5mg of Clonazepam. I cut it by 1/4. It’s really hard to cut down anymore. Having a hard time cutting further. By the way Can I ask what method did you use for tapering that way I could use yours by tapering down further?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tip of the hat for adding your signature, rjdayak.  This is very helpful.

 

Clonazepam is a potent benzodiazepine so 0.125mg is still a considerable dose.  Instead of beginning with a 20% reduction per month, you might want to consider a lower percent, say 10% (or less). If all goes well, you could then cautiously increase the percent reduction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would probably suggest going down the linear route at this stage rather than percentages. The reason I'm saying this is based on your history. You haven't done percentages up to this point so you don't know which percentage works for you. You also haven't kept a journal of your symptoms which will make it difficult to identify when your symptoms are getting worse. It means if you're going percentages you're experimenting to try and find the right one which is working for you, which could take considerable time and by the time you've figured it out, you have to switch to linear anyway.

 

It doesn't mean linear will be much of a difference because you don't have anything to fall back on either. But instead of trying to figure out what percentage works for you, you slowly go down in increments and if you start feeling worse, you hold until you get better (which you would be doing with percentages as well). It's important to note what Libertas has said, that 0.125mg is still very potent, so it should not be underestimated.

 

I used liquid, so if you're still interested in water, we can help you with water titration?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tip of the hat for adding your signature, rjdayak.  This is very helpful.

 

Clonazepam is a potent benzodiazepine so 0.125mg is still a considerable dose.  Instead of beginning with a 20% reduction per month, you might want to consider a lower percent, say 10% (or less). If all goes well, you could then cautiously increase the percent reduction.

 

Thanks! yeah exactly. I'm on it for short term but still struggling, for sure I will go slow. My withdrawal symptoms is still present as of now and I am holding still at this dosage. I'm kinda tempted in updosing but I'm confused. I don't want to go back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would probably suggest going down the linear route at this stage rather than percentages. The reason I'm saying this is based on your history. You haven't done percentages up to this point so you don't know which percentage works for you. You also haven't kept a journal of your symptoms which will make it difficult to identify when your symptoms are getting worse. It means if you're going percentages you're experimenting to try and find the right one which is working for you, which could take considerable time and by the time you've figured it out, you have to switch to linear anyway.

 

It doesn't mean linear will be much of a difference because you don't have anything to fall back on either. But instead of trying to figure out what percentage works for you, you slowly go down in increments and if you start feeling worse, you hold until you get better (which you would be doing with percentages as well). It's important to note what Libertas has said, that 0.125mg is still very potent, so it should not be underestimated.

 

I used liquid, so if you're still interested in water, we can help you with water titration?

 

I'm still having bad W/D symptoms as of now with this dosage. I'm holding for 12 days now. I'm planning Linear just what you suggested , like 0.001-0.005mg each week?

I definitely appreciate and be glad if you could be help me with the water titration. Does it really needs alcohol to dissolve properly? I'm really confused on what to do.  ???

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're still very symptomatic from your previous cuts, I would suggest you hold your dose for a couple of weeks until you feel a lot better. If you start tapering and you have not fully and completely recovered from your previous cuts, it can still impact your taper with lingering effects. I had to hold my dose for about 6 weeks to ensure I stabilize before cutting again when my cuts were too big. It's important to know that when you taper your cuts have an accummulation effect and each cut build on the next, so if you don't give enough recovery time, it can all hit you at once when the accummulated cuts are just too much. This can also happen when you do titration or micro tapering.

 

In my opinion, and this is only my opinion, I think your suggestion of 0.005mg per week is a good starting point. However, I just need to point out and make you aware that as you continue to taper down in this linear fashion, your percentages will keep increasing. It's extremely important that you're aware of this so you can keep monitoring your symptoms and increasing your hold periods if you feel uncomfortable at any stage. I'm going to give you numbers, just so you get the bigger picture (this is based on 2 weeks reductions):

 

0.125mg > 0.115mg = 8% reduction

0.115mg > 0.105mg = 8.7% reduction

0.105mg > 0.095mg = 9.5% reduction

0.095mg > 0.085mg = 10.5% reduction

 

As you can see your percentages are getting higher with each 2 week linear reduction. If you do not feel comfortable with this approach, then you should rather stick to percentages and a longer taper. I just need you to fully understand how this works.

 

Also, if you switch to liquid, it's best to not make a cut, but switch to the equivalent dose first because some people have a reaction to the liquid, so you want to switch without cutting to determine whether your body can tolerate the liquid first.

 

With titration and home made liquids, we cannot get solutions, we can only make suspensions. What this means is we cannot get the pills to 100% dissolve in any type of liquid and equally mix throughout the liquid. In my understanding you can only get that from commercially manufactured liquids from the drug companies - like liquid Rivotril. It doesn't mean you cannot use liquid titration, it simply means you need to be aware that the pill is probably not dissolved and equally dispersed and take the necessary measurements in your control to manage it - which we'll help you with. You don't have to use alcohol, you can use water only. Some people use a bit of alcohol, some people don't.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're still very symptomatic from your previous cuts, I would suggest you hold your dose for a couple of weeks until you feel a lot better. If you start tapering and you have not fully and completely recovered from your previous cuts, it can still impact your taper with lingering effects. I had to hold my dose for about 6 weeks to ensure I stabilize before cutting again when my cuts were too big. It's important to know that when you taper your cuts have an accummulation effect and each cut build on the next, so if you don't give enough recovery time, it can all hit you at once when the accummulated cuts are just too much. This can also happen when you do titration or micro tapering.

 

In my opinion, and this is only my opinion, I think your suggestion of 0.005mg per week is a good starting point. However, I just need to point out and make you aware that as you continue to taper down in this linear fashion, your percentages will keep increasing. It's extremely important that you're aware of this so you can keep monitoring your symptoms and increasing your hold periods if you feel uncomfortable at any stage. I'm going to give you numbers, just so you get the bigger picture (this is based on 2 weeks reductions):

 

0.125mg > 0.115mg = 8% reduction

0.115mg > 0.105mg = 8.7% reduction

0.105mg > 0.095mg = 9.5% reduction

0.095mg > 0.085mg = 10.5% reduction

 

As you can see your percentages are getting higher with each 2 week linear reduction. If you do not feel comfortable with this approach, then you should rather stick to percentages and a longer taper. I just need you to fully understand how this works.

 

Also, if you switch to liquid, it's best to not make a cut, but switch to the equivalent dose first because some people have a reaction to the liquid, so you want to switch without cutting to determine whether your body can tolerate the liquid first.

 

With titration and home made liquids, we cannot get solutions, we can only make suspensions. What this means is we cannot get the pills to 100% dissolve in any type of liquid and equally mix throughout the liquid. In my understanding you can only get that from commercially manufactured liquids from the drug companies - like liquid Rivotril. It doesn't mean you cannot use liquid titration, it simply means you need to be aware that the pill is probably not dissolved and equally dispersed and take the necessary measurements in your control to manage it - which we'll help you with. You don't have to use alcohol, you can use water only. Some people use a bit of alcohol, some people don't.

 

Thank you for giving me light! To be clear enough, I'm gonna use my 0.5mg tablet to dissolve in the liquid not the one that I cut in the pill , Right? (Im cutting using tablet cutter the tablet has cut lines to make it to 1/4 does making it to .125mg)

Also I will wait for your suggestions in the measurements and control in managing the titration.

:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi rjdayak,

 

For a liquid taper, the best thing to do is not worry about percentages but instead reduce a tiny amount each day.

 

For example, let us say you want to finish your taper in 90 days. 

 

Then do this:

 

Each morning, put 1/4 pill into 90 mL of water and let it break down.  Then stir or shake vigorously.

 

Day 1 - remove 1 mL of water and drink the rest

Day 2 - remove 2 mL of water and drink the rest

Day 3 - remove 3 mL of water and drink the rest.

Continue until day 90

 

If desired, you can first put a few drops of Vodka on the 1/4 pill to help it dissolve before adding the water.

 

Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Bob for helping out with the quantities.

 

3 months is a bit faster than what we discussed, it's 0.001mg per day. However what you can do, is remove 1ml per day for 5 days and then hold your dose for 2 days without removing anything for 2 days. If you feel the intensity of your symptoms increase at any stage it would also be best to just hold your dose.

 

Remember we discussed suspensions? After you've swallowed the mixture, you add some more water to the jar/glass and rinse the sides and then swallow it. You do this because the pill doesn't fully dissolve in the water and you want to make sure you get any residue on the sides. Also we recommend you use filtered or bottled water as we don't know what chemicals there are in tap water and how it reacts to the drug.

 

I hope this helps you get started.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi rjdayak,

 

For a liquid taper, the best thing to do is not worry about percentages but instead reduce a tiny amount each day.

 

For example, let us say you want to finish your taper in 90 days. 

 

Then do this:

 

Each morning, put 1/4 pill into 90 mL of water and let it break down.  Then stir or shake vigorously.

 

Day 1 - remove 1 mL of water and drink the rest

Day 2 - remove 2 mL of water and drink the rest

Day 3 - remove 3 mL of water and drink the rest.

Continue until day 90

 

If desired, you can first put a few drops of Vodka on the 1/4 pill to help it dissolve before adding the water.

 

Bob

 

Thanks for putting this together and making it easy for me! I really appreciate it. Godbless  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Bob for helping out with the quantities.

 

3 months is a bit faster than what we discussed, it's 0.001mg per day. However what you can do, is remove 1ml per day for 5 days and then hold your dose for 2 days without removing anything for 2 days. If you feel the intensity of your symptoms increase at any stage it would also be best to just hold your dose.

 

Remember we discussed suspensions? After you've swallowed the mixture, you add some more water to the jar/glass and rinse the sides and then swallow it. You do this because the pill doesn't fully dissolve in the water and you want to make sure you get any residue on the sides. Also we recommend you use filtered or bottled water as we don't know what chemicals there are in tap water and how it reacts to the drug.

 

I hope this helps you get started.

 

I put your notes already Jellybaby! And really glad for such a big help. I"ll update you guys of my progress. Thank you so much!  :smitten:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Hi Jelly Baby:

I am preparing a taper for 1 mg clonazepam x 16 years. It’s my only psychotropic medication. I was provided a plan on this site for a water taper for 287 ml to remove 1 ml daily and drink the rest. It was just a plan to drop my 1 mg tablet into the jar. I see that you state it’s best to get the liquid compounded. Can you tell me the reason for this? I want to get this right the first time. I knew I would be unable to dry cut although my husband states he will do the preparations for me. I have long Covid and am in no shape to try to do “difficult”. If I wanted to liquid raise from home, is there a way you prefer besides water? Thank you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Jelly Baby:

I am preparing a taper for 1 mg clonazepam x 16 years. It’s my only psychotropic medication. I was provided a plan on this site for a water taper for 287 ml to remove 1 ml daily and drink the rest. It was just a plan to drop my 1 mg tablet into the jar. I see that you state it’s best to get the liquid compounded. Can you tell me the reason for this? I want to get this right the first time. I knew I would be unable to dry cut although my husband states he will do the preparations for me. I have long Covid and am in no shape to try to do “difficult”. If I wanted to liquid raise from home, is there a way you prefer besides water? Thank you

 

Hi formy4kids

 

When it comes to liquid tapering, first prize is always when you get the liquid commercially manufactured because there's no alteration of the manufactured drug. But liquid Clonazepam is not available in the States. Next best option is to have it compounded in my opinion. The reason I say this is because pharmacists can use a stability tested formula to make their liquids and they are professionally trained to do this. When we make our DIY liquids we really have no scientific evidence of what exactly happens during our own processes and we don't know what other elements might interfere since we're not professionally trained. Since Clonazepam is not soluble in water we only get a suspension, so we need be cautious. It also doesn't mean you cannot use water to titrate. Many people have used it successfully to get off benzo's. It simply means you have to be aware of the potential pitfalls and minimize the risks if you want to use water.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jelly Baby. I have been torn. The nearest Compunding pharmacy is 80 miles but I would drive there monthly it if could be the best way to get it done. I had really hoped to not talk to my provider about my taper because I’m not certain of how much they will a self led taper at my own speed so if felt safest to say nothing and use my own tablets. I have been pretty overwhelmed by the dry cut, file, weigh method but my husband would assist. I’ve seen so many success stories with water taper but have also seen negatives and it’s frustrating because I believe I could handle it on my own and could slow it by decreasing .5 ml if needed or use a larger volume of water. I too have worried about making certain I know it’s dispersed evenly. I’m feeling there’s no way that makes me comfortable so it’s tough. There’s nothing to add to the water besides alcohol to help this issue?

 

You had success in your taper with dry cut correct? I believe you said you were functional. Those scales seem like they make people pull their hair out. Are you a proponent of cut and hold or microtaper? Many say microtaper feels very smoothe but I thought cut and hold gave the CNS more time to heal along the way. Sorry for all the questions. I want to do this ONCE and know flexibility is important but I hope to get a method I feel comfortable with to begin. Thanks for any help you can offer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...