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solution Stability (xanax)


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I've noticed that if I use a batch for more than 7 days or so, it seems my symptoms ramp up as the solution gets older, even though I'm holding my dose. Has anyone else noticed this with their solutions?

 

I usually use up a batch within 6 days. But sometimes they last longer because I might use pills for a day or two. Like during the all day meetings I had last week at work, I didn't want to pull out a flask and take a swig. That would look a little odd, I think.  :idiot:

 

I've been holding for weeks. I'm stable, so I could start reducing, but just haven't had the courage. Anyways, this latest batch has lasted 3 days longer than normal, and I'm kind of feeling symptoms. I've noticed this before, when my batch lasts longer than 8 days or so. I make a new batch and after a day or two I feel better.

 

My dilutions are super dilute, 0.005 mg/mL right now. I use five 0.5 mg pills, 25 mL vodka, 475 mL water. As I get lower in dose I make my solutions more dilute, so a batch always lasts me 5 or 6 days. I start at 100 mL per day, reducing 1 mL every day. That's how I keep my reductions at 10% every 10 days.

 

So back to my solution stability question, has anyone else noticed this? I realize there have been contentious discussions around this topic in the past. I'm not looking for theoretical discussions on the stability of chemicals in water dilutions. I'm looking for people's experience. Have you noticed symptoms ramping up as your batch gets older? Especially if you're holding at a dose?

 

Of course, if you have literature sources for stability of these drugs in solutions, I'm very interested!

 

Since I'm on xanax, symptoms can appear really quickly when reducing doses. It makes for a quick feedback mechanism.

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I've been holding for weeks. I'm stable, so I could start reducing, but just haven't had the courage. Anyways, this latest batch has lasted 3 days longer than normal, and I'm kind of feeling symptoms. I've noticed this before, when my batch lasts longer than 8 days or so. I make a new batch and after a day or two I feel better.

 

This might be the answer to your question.

 

I will look for some references to degradation of the benzo in the solution, I know I've seen information about this.

 

I didn't titrate but after learning about the process recently I don't think I'd trust a 'batch' that had been sitting around for days.  That's just me.

 

pianogirl

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I've noticed that if I use a batch for more than 7 days or so, it seems my symptoms ramp up as the solution gets older, even though I'm holding my dose. Has anyone else noticed this with their solutions?

 

Greetings, HopeToDoThis.  Good to “see” you on the boards as always.

 

You’ve asked a very interesting question about the stability/potency of homemade liquids over time!  I’m replying to “bump” your post plus ask you a question about storage requirements for homemade liquids.

 

Given that you make your homemade liquid with Xanax/alprazolam, I also wonder if you have considered cross-posting your question to the Support Group for Xanax at:

 

Xanax Club, Let Us Know How You Are Today

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=74309.msg987285#msg987285

(The above URL links to the first post on the first page of this thread.)

 

As I’m sure you’ve already discovered, the “Discard opened bottle after 90 days” excerpt upthread is not relevant to your question about stability/potency given that: (1) it was taken from the drug information for an FDA-approved, professionally manufactured prescription oral solution of alprazolam, (2) the prescription oral solution has different ingredients (alprazolam API, propylene glycol, succinic acid, water) than your homemade liquid (regular Xanax tablets, beverage-grade alcohol, water) and (3) the prescription oral solution has a different concentration (1mg/mL) than your homemade solution (0.005mg/mL).  However, the storage requirements for the prescription oral solution caught my eye:

 

Store at Controlled Room Temperature 15°-30°C (59°-86°F).

PROTECT FROM LIGHT.

 

Because the above cited drug information pamphlet was old (“Revised October 2007”), I just checked DailyMed (the official provider of FDA label information) for the current information. According to the drug label information “Updated February 28, 2017,”  the storage requirements have changed since 2007!  They are now:

 

Store at 20° to 25°C (68° to 77°F). [see USP Controlled Room Temperature.]

PROTECT FROM LIGHT.

 

The above causes me to wonder if - just to be on the safe side - Xanax-based homemade liquids should be kept within the 68° to 77°F temperature range and also protected from light.  Given your area of expertise, you know far more about such matters than I do!  Your thoughts?

 

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As I’m sure you’ve already discovered, the “Discard opened bottle after 90 days” excerpt upthread is not relevant to your question about stability/potency given that:

 

Yes, it's relevant, because the the question was  "  degradation of the benzo in the solution, "

 

There is zero evidence that dissolving a benzo in a solvent changes anything except its physical form...dry granule to uniformly distributed liquid.  In its liquid state, it obviously retains its potency from up to 90 days (in the case of lorazepam and alprozolam) and up to 3 years for diazepam.

 

Y'all will continue to create an environment of fear that if folks don't have access to Rx liquid, then they have no simple, reliable alternative.

 

So even if they try a home-made liquid, and they  "fail"...so what?.  Lots of folks, including me, "failed" with Ashton, so you just back up, and start over.

 

Apparently the current official  BB mantra is "anti-home-brew liquid".  But why?  Is Rx a better option?  Sure!  But why frighten and discourage those that don't have access to Rx, or in the US,  where there is  no Rx K.

 

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Builder, we are all looking for something that works. I find my solution works. Until I get past 7 or 8 days with it, then it seems not to work. I'm asking if others experience this.

 

That is all.

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As I’m sure you’ve already discovered, the “Discard opened bottle after 90 days” excerpt upthread is not relevant to your question about stability/potency given that:

 

Yes, it's relevant, because the the question was  "  degradation of the benzo in the solution, "

 

There is zero evidence that dissolving a benzo in a solvent changes anything except its physical form...dry granule to uniformly distributed liquid.  In its liquid state, it obviously retains its potency from up to 90 days (in the case of lorazepam and alprozolam) and up to 3 years for diazepam.

 

Y'all will continue to create an environment of fear that if folks don't have access to Rx liquid, then they have no simple, reliable alternative.

 

So even if they try a home-made liquid, and they  "fail"...so what?.  Lots of folks, including me, "failed" with Ashton, so you just back up, and start over.

 

Apparently the current official  BB mantra is "anti-home-brew liquid".  But why?  Is Rx a better option?  Sure!  But why frighten and discourage those that don't have access to Rx, or in the US,  where there is  no Rx K.

 

It has nothing to do with fear or discouragement it is more about caution and being informed and in some cases to avoid escalating symptoms. What you do not seem to comprehend is that some folks are EXTREMELY SENSITIVE and suffering. The last thing they need is for a batch of homemade liquid to go bad because they left it out in the heat or light or whatever due to lack of critical information. You do not seem to know what suffering is. Why don't you back off and stop being so antagonistic and offer your help instead of stirring up the pot all the time. You act just like a child. Grow up builder.

 

 

edit for spelling

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Why don't you back off and stop being so antagonistic and offer your help instead of stirring up the pot all the time. You act just like a child. Grow up builder.

 

BELLA, is that YOU????!!!!! :laugh:...........in disguise and still harassing builder when he is simply stating the facts and asking relevant questions???!!!! :pokey:

 

Good to have you back, darlin'! :smitten:

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Hi all,

 

Let's be clear. If you make assertions for efficacy, especially when stated in 'absolute terms', we expect reliable citations for your claims. For those who continue to make unsubstantiated claims, or otherwise are incapable of engaging in grown up discussion about a serious subject, expect restrictions upon your account, including (but not restricted to) pre-approval by a moderator of all your posts.

 

There will be no further warnings.

 

Now, let's back to HopeToDoThis's question regarding has anyone noticed a drop-off in effectiveness of home-made liquids after a number of days storage.

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I provided the citation for my "claim".

 

I'm still waiting to piano girl to substantiate  "I will look for some references to degradation of the benzo in the solution, I know I've seen information about this."

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Your citation was for a commercial product, with different ingredients, and all the protections required of and provided with commercial products. This is not directly relatable to a home-made liquid with different ingredients. So, your citation is essentially worthless. This already has been pointed out to you (but more politely than by me). But when you continue to ignore such corrections and double-down, a blunt response becomes necessary.

 

Sincerely address the concerns of the OP, engage in genuine discussion (with an open mind), or do not post.

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Now, let's back to HopeToDoThis's question regarding has anyone noticed a drop-off in effectiveness of home-made liquids after a number of days storage.

 

I have gone as long as 11 days with a "batch" of home made valium mixed with vodka and water ( 1 : 2 : 8 ) with no noticeable degradation of strength to the mix, no increase in symptoms and no adverse reaction to the alcohol.  It retained it's potency from day 1.  This was with storing it out of the light and at room temperature.

 

I have not tried a 12 day mixture, yet.

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Now, let's back to HopeToDoThis's question regarding has anyone noticed a drop-off in effectiveness of home-made liquids after a number of days storage.

 

I have gone as long as 11 days with a "batch" of home made valium mixed with vodka and water ( 1 : 2 : 8 ) with no noticeable degradation of strength to the mix, no increase in symptoms and no adverse reaction to the alcohol.  It retained it's potency from day 1.  This was with storing it out of the light and at room temperature.

 

I have not tried a 12 day mixture, yet.

Well that's more like it. Thanks!

 

Another thing I've noticed is that the longer I have the batch, the more sudsy it gets. The first couple of days when I pour it, it's just like water. After a few days it starts developing a "head" when I pour it.

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the fundamental laws of chemistry and physics are... fundamental!!

 

The solution I make by stirring sugar into my coffee is follows the same laws as a pharma mfgr  making a med solution.  Again, high school chemistry.

 

 

Chemistry for Kids

 

Solutions and Dissolving

 

A solution has certain characteristics:

 

    It is uniform, or homogeneous, throughout the mixture

    It is stable and doesn't change over time or settle

    The solute particles are so small they cannot be separated by filtering

    The solute and solvent molecules cannot be distinguished by the naked eye

    It does not scatter a beam of light

 

https://www.ducksters.com/science/chemistry/solutions_and_dissolving.php

 

 

And I'm sure there is already well documented evidence here on BB that the major benzos are in fact soluble in both alcohol and propylene glycol.

 

 

 

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Now, let's back to HopeToDoThis's question regarding has anyone noticed a drop-off in effectiveness of home-made liquids after a number of days storage.

 

I have gone as long as 11 days with a "batch" of home made valium mixed with vodka and water ( 1 : 2 : 8 ) with no noticeable degradation of strength to the mix, no increase in symptoms and no adverse reaction to the alcohol. It retained it's potency from day 1.  This was with storing it out of the light and at room temperature.

 

I have not tried a 12 day mixture, yet.

 

How do you know this?  With Valium one may not feel a discrepancy in potency for a week or so, especially one who is a slow metabolizer. You must have some super high tech testing equipment at your disposal to make a claim such as this.

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Now, let's back to HopeToDoThis's question regarding has anyone noticed a drop-off in effectiveness of home-made liquids after a number of days storage.

 

I have gone as long as 11 days with a "batch" of home made valium mixed with vodka and water ( 1 : 2 : 8 ) with no noticeable degradation of strength to the mix, no increase in symptoms and no adverse reaction to the alcohol. It retained it's potency from day 1.  This was with storing it out of the light and at room temperature.

 

I have not tried a 12 day mixture, yet.

 

How do you know this?  With Valium one may not feel a discrepancy in potency for a week or so, especially one who is a slow metabolizer. You must have some super high tech testing equipment at your disposal to make a claim such as this.

 

No, you just need to read a high school chemistry text!  So my previous post.

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Now, let's back to HopeToDoThis's question regarding has anyone noticed a drop-off in effectiveness of home-made liquids after a number of days storage.

 

I have gone as long as 11 days with a "batch" of home made valium mixed with vodka and water ( 1 : 2 : 8 ) with no noticeable degradation of strength to the mix, no increase in symptoms and no adverse reaction to the alcohol.  It retained it's potency from day 1.  This was with storing it out of the light and at room temperature.

 

I have not tried a 12 day mixture, yet.

 

I had the same experience with klonopin. I used the same ratio of 1/2/8/. The only difference is that used PG. No decrease in strength, no increase in symptoms and no adverse affect to PG. I did a 10 day batch. It sure worked for me. The best method by far for me and I am grateful to Builder for his knowledge and help.

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Now, let's back to HopeToDoThis's question regarding has anyone noticed a drop-off in effectiveness of home-made liquids after a number of days storage.

 

I have gone as long as 11 days with a "batch" of home made valium mixed with vodka and water ( 1 : 2 : 8 ) with no noticeable degradation of strength to the mix, no increase in symptoms and no adverse reaction to the alcohol.  It retained it's potency from day 1.  This was with storing it out of the light and at room temperature.

 

I have not tried a 12 day mixture, yet.

 

I had the same experience with klonopin. I used the same ratio of 1/2/8/. The only difference is that used PG. No decrease in strength, no increase in symptoms and no adverse affect to PG. I did a 10 day batch. It sure worked for me. The best method by far for me and I am grateful to Builder for his knowledge and help.

 

:) :) :)

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Now, let's back to HopeToDoThis's question regarding has anyone noticed a drop-off in effectiveness of home-made liquids after a number of days storage.

 

I have gone as long as 11 days with a "batch" of home made valium mixed with vodka and water ( 1 : 2 : 8 ) with no noticeable degradation of strength to the mix, no increase in symptoms and no adverse reaction to the alcohol.  It retained it's potency from day 1.  This was with storing it out of the light and at room temperature.

 

I have not tried a 12 day mixture, yet.

 

I had the same experience with klonopin. I used the same ratio of 1/2/8/. The only difference is that used PG. No decrease in strength, no increase in symptoms and no adverse affect to PG. I did a 10 day batch. It sure worked for me. The best method by far for me and I am grateful to Builder for his knowledge and help.

 

Dana

 

We must both be using the same super high tech testing equipment, and we both know his name!!!  :laugh:  And it works with both PG and vodka.  Go figure.  :o

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

There are so many people on this board who have said, and are saying the same thing about "home brews"; if done properly, they are working and are holding efficacy for some fairly decent amounts of time. 

 

SO many people have been helped by this process, and yet the naysayers, and their minions, keep trying to steer people away from it and the people who have benefitted the most from it.  It really seems like it is their undying mission in life to quash the voices of those who have been, and are continuing to be, helped by these methods of eliminating benzos from their lives. 

 

There has to be a devious or embarrassing underlying reason for their negativity and their non-stop, pull out all stops efforts to quash this truth. 

 

From the short amount of time I have been here, it all seems to revolve around someone by the name of Jana, Dana.  :crazy:

 

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Now, let's back to HopeToDoThis's question regarding has anyone noticed a drop-off in effectiveness of home-made liquids after a number of days storage.

 

I have gone as long as 11 days with a "batch" of home made valium mixed with vodka and water ( 1 : 2 : 8 ) with no noticeable degradation of strength to the mix, no increase in symptoms and no adverse reaction to the alcohol.  It retained it's potency from day 1.  This was with storing it out of the light and at room temperature.

 

I have not tried a 12 day mixture, yet.

Well that's more like it. Thanks!

 

Another thing I've noticed is that the longer I have the batch, the more sudsy it gets. The first couple of days when I pour it, it's just like water. After a few days it starts developing a "head" when I pour it.

 

HTDT,

 

How much vodka are you using per mg of benzo to make your solution and what proof of vodka is it?

 

I had read somewhere on this board that someone's batch would get frothy after a bit, and they started using a higher proof of alcohol to remedy that situation.

 

YMMV.

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the fundamental laws of chemistry and physics are... fundamental!!

 

The solution I make by stirring sugar into my coffee is follows the same laws as a pharma mfgr  making a med solution.  Again, high school chemistry.

 

 

Chemistry for Kids

 

Solutions and Dissolving

 

A solution has certain characteristics:

 

    It is uniform, or homogeneous, throughout the mixture

    It is stable and doesn't change over time or settle

    The solute particles are so small they cannot be separated by filtering

    The solute and solvent molecules cannot be distinguished by the naked eye

    It does not scatter a beam of light

 

https://www.ducksters.com/science/chemistry/solutions_and_dissolving.php

 

 

And I'm sure there is already well documented evidence here on BB that the major benzos are in fact soluble in both alcohol and propylene glycol.

 

No. And you have been told this so many times, builder. Your basic high school chemistry does not trump the experience and knowledge of an actual chemist with highly relevant work experience. You are a walking, talking prime example of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I know that you have already read the following; I include them now for other readers.

 

I worked in the pharmaceutical industry as a quality control chemist and in quality assurance. It was not for a generics manufacturer. The company I worked at made extended release tablets.

 

I'm not going to argue anymore. But I think my bachelor degree in chemistry and 15+ years as a quality control chemist in the pharmaceutical industry should mean something. And no I'm not a pharma shill. The industry certainly has its faults.

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Then perhaps this " actual chemist with highly relevant work experience" can share some documented evidence that somehow benzos do not conform to basic process of dissolution.
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Then perhaps this " actual chemist with highly relevant work experience" can share some documented evidence that somehow benzos do not conform to basic process of dissolution.

 

O.M.G. You are being absolutely ridiculous. A few replies earlier you posted the following:

 

the fundamental laws of chemistry and physics are... fundamental!!

 

The solution I make by stirring sugar into my coffee is follows the same laws as a pharma mfgr  making a med solution.  Again, high school chemistry.

 

Chemistry for Kids

 

Solutions and Dissolving

 

A solution has certain characteristics:

 

    It is uniform, or homogeneous, throughout the mixture

    It is stable and doesn't change over time or settle

    The solute particles are so small they cannot be separated by filtering

    The solute and solvent molecules cannot be distinguished by the naked eye

    It does not scatter a beam of light

 

https://www.ducksters.com/science/chemistry/solutions_and_dissolving.php

 

 

And I'm sure there is already well documented evidence here on BB that the major benzos are in fact soluble in both alcohol and propylene glycol.

 

You argue by citing from 'Chemistry for Kids'. This is asinine. Don't you realise that information from such a website will be simplified for the consumption of younger children? Your 'source' tells us nothing about stability or to what degree a particular benzodiazepine will go into solution (the non-pure benzodiazepine being ground from tablets containing additional ingredients and the use of beverage-grade alcohol, as opposed to pure alcohol).

 

Any more of this nonsense and your posts will go to pre-moderation, where your posts will require the approval of moderator before being published.

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Then perhaps this " actual chemist with highly relevant work experience" can share some documented evidence that somehow benzos do not conform to basic process of dissolution.

 

That's the problem. I don't have any, but it would be nice to find it.

 

Many chemicals degrade in aqueous solution through chemical reactions. Hydrolysis is the most common reaction. Or dissolved oxygen in the water can cause oxidation of the dissolved chemical, like an iron nail turning to rust (although that is happening at the surface of the nail, not dissolved iron). All sorts of things can change the benzo molecule in water to another molecule. Those reactions may be sped up if the water is slightly acidic or slightly alkaline. But these are hypotheticals, since I don't have any data.

 

Meanwhile, I'm asking if people's symptoms ramp up if they keep their batches longer. Because I notice that mine do.

 

 

HTDT,

 

How much vodka are you using per mg of benzo to make your solution and what proof of vodka is it?

 

I had read somewhere on this board that someone's batch would get frothy after a bit, and they started using a higher proof of alcohol to remedy that situation.

 

YMMV.

 

I use 25 mL of 80 proof vodka. Right now my solution is 0.005 mg/mL in 500 mL, so it's 2.5 mg benzo. I make my solutions more dilute as I get lower so I can easily keep to the 10% reduction every 10 days. Next up is 2 mg benzo in  500 mL, still made with 25 mL vodka. I don't know how I settled on this amount. I think I wanted to be able to cover the pills at the bottom of the jar with liquid before adding water.

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