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Switching from Clonazepam to Diazepam??


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Hello there! I have taken clonazepam 0.5mg three times a day (1.5mg Total per day) for the last 20 years or so. I want to get off the benzos totally and my family doctor wants me to substitute 10mg of diazepam 3 times a day for the next two weeks. She says if that goes well I can then taper off using an approach close to the Ashton manual. I did show her the Ashton Manual for my specific daily dosage of clonazepam. She looked at it and said she didn't like the idea of adding a new benzo with the clonazepam so she came up with the plan to switch straight to diazepam.

 

Just wondering if this can work to get of benzos all together? I started the substitution of diazepam 2 evenings ago. I am basically taking it like I would my clonazepam, so it is 10mg diazepam morning, noon and evening. I feel about the same as I did before so I am wondering if it is a good plan or should I expect to feel worse in a few days?

 

I have been a member here for about 2 years but didn't want to start my taper journey until this year. I had other surgeries and stuff happen in the last two years and am now ready to try and get off the benzos!

 

Thanks for any input.

 

 

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I have questions Zippo and hoping you’ll come back so we can talk.  Clonazepam users will often say it takes about 3 days to begin to feel the loss of the drug, it can Valium quite some time to build up because its so slow acting, how are you feeling?
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Hello Pamster!

 

I am actually feeling pretty much the same as if I was taking the clonazepam, is that weird or am I weird? Only thing is I feel slightly more tired but otherwise I am feeling okay so far. I think I am able to sleep better since switching from clonazepam to diazepam. I hope I can just remain steady with the switch. I probably should be on diazepam for some time before trying to taper it down? I know 30mg/day is a pretty high dose but it compares pretty much to the 1.5mg of clonazepam I was taking, eh?

 

I am pretty consistent with keeping my time schedule for 3 times a day. 4am/12pm/8pm. Some days the times are off by 30 minutes or so but close to same daily.

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I’m pleased you’re doing okay, I’ve seen members experience severe symptoms before the Valium has had a chance to kick in so you’re lucky. 

 

I am concerned about the dose though, there is a range that is suggested when it comes to equivalencies, this is because we all react differently so if you’re doing this well, I’d pay attention and adjust your dose down from 30 mgs.  Remember, a symptom based taper is best as is a symptom based crossover.

 

 

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Thanks for the reply and insight. I appreciate it. Yeah I am feeling okay so far. I was prescribed clonazepam and baclofen over 20 years go to help with my cervical dystonia and it seems since then the clonazepam has given me more anxiety than I ever had. It will be good to be off the benzos in time. I am giving myself lots of time to figure out the next steps for this diazepam taper. I am going to make sure my doctor sees and hopefully will help me go by the Ashton manual taper plan. I think it should work nicely.

 

I will try and keep this thread updated. I figured out how to turn notifications on for it!! I haven't used the boards here in over 2 years! LOL. It is good to be back and read others stories. I just don't want to read too much as it can make me worry and question my own plans.

 

Zippo (aka Clay)  :thumbsup:

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I’m glad you’re going to take your time and remember, even the Ashton method needs to be adjusted for your individual needs.  Some members say they’ve had to slow it down towards the end. 

 

I hear you about anxiety caused by the benzo, I never had it until I became dependent, I initially took it for sleep.  And totally understand how reading too much here can cause stress, take what you need and leave the rest.  :thumbsup:

 

I wanted to provide this tool so you can see the suggested equivalencies.  https://clincalc.com/Benzodiazepine/

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Pamster thanks again! Yeah my family doc actually used that calculator to come up with the 10mg of diazepam....too funny how docs even have to resort to googling stuff! She honestly thought I was on a low dose of clonazepam and thought valium (diazepam) was stronger than clonazepam!!!!!!! I said no clonazepam is at least 10 times stronger almost like 20 times!! Insane!! I have to be my own doc!! It is crazy!

 

Thanks again and I will take it slow and see how things go. I will post again soonish! Hehehe!

 

Have a great rest of the week! Take care! Same goes for anyone reading this! Nice to have a place to share and be heard plus try and help others! I love it!!

 

Clay aka Zippo  :):thumbsup:

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Zippo!

 

Just seeing how you doing now? are you holding at 30 mg diazapam?

do you dose the V 3/day like the clonazepam?

 

I also take clonazepam 05/ 3 x/day and plan to start an Ashton taper next week if all goes well :) I'm finding the current dose isn't working anymore for me. How were you feeling when you made the switch from C to V? 

 

Look forward to hearing back. Seems were in a similar spot!

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Hi Zippo!

 

Just seeing how you doing now? are you holding at 30 mg diazapam?

do you dose the V 3/day like the clonazepam?

 

I also take clonazepam 05/ 3 x/day and plan to start an Ashton taper next week if all goes well :) I'm finding the current dose isn't working anymore for me. How were you feeling when you made the switch from C to V? 

 

Look forward to hearing back. Seems were in a similar spot!

 

Hello Cali,

I am doing good so far. I have been holding at the 30mg/day diazepam. I dose 10mg - 3 times per day. I guess I got lucky so far with the direct swap from clonazepam to diazepam. Today I am starting to taper the diazepam according to the Ashton Manual. Today I will dose 10mg Morning/8mg Midday/10mg Evening. (28mg Total for day) I will do this for 2 weeks and see how I feel. Then move on to next stage until I get to the point of dosing only twice per day. I have an appointment to see my family doctor just before that stage. I am glad my family doc is willing to help taper me slowly and not cut dosage drastically. Fingers crossed for success.

 

I hope you are doing ok and if you start the taper maybe you should try and do it more according to Ashton Manual. My doc at first didn't feel comfortable with me being on 2 different benzos at one time but that was just her not knowing anything about the best way to transition from one drug to the other. I just got lucky or am built different! LOL. We all are different.

 

I posted some stuff in the Withdrawal Support section too. I know this forum is confusing for many. So many categories and stuff.

 

Zippo  :thumbsup:

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  • 2 weeks later...

Zippo,

 

Just checking in to see how you are doing? 

We have a somewhat similar situation.

 

My doctor ( yesterday!)  and I decided to slowly switch to Valium from Clonanapam too. I am same dosage 0.5 CL 3 x/day

 

We went with step One:

 

0.5 CL am

0.5 CL afternoon

3.75 CL. and % mg Valium at bedtime

 

Cl does come in 0.25 and .125 dosages in the US.

 

Have you still been feeling okay?

 

 

 

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Zippo,

 

Just checking in to see how you are doing? 

We have a somewhat similar situation.

 

My doctor ( yesterday!)  and I decided to slowly switch to Valium from Clonanapam too. I am same dosage 0.5 CL 3 x/day

 

We went with step One:

 

0.5 CL am

0.5 CL afternoon

3.75 CL. and % mg Valium at bedtime

 

Cl does come in 0.25 and .125 dosages in the US.

 

Have you still been feeling okay?

 

 

Hey Cali,

 

I am still doing well here. So far no negative effects from doing the direct switch from clonazepam to diazepam (Valium). Right now my dosing is 10mg/8mg/10mg....I do morning/afternoon/night. Next week I will taper the diazepam to 10mg/6mg/10mg = 26mg/day. If all goes well I will stay on that dose for 2 weeks and try the next stage of Ashton Manual.

 

I am a bit confused by your dosing. You said you are 0.5mg CL/0.5mg CL/3.75 CL %mg Valium? I am confused as to the %mg Valium?

 

Anyway I hope you are doing well!? Let me know how things are going.

 

Zippo :)

 

 

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Hi zippo!

 

Sorry, 5 mg valium!  That's great you are doing so well :)

 

So its 0.5 CL am,  0.5 CL afternoon, and 3.75 CL and 5 mg valium at bedtime.... so far so good.

 

what percentage of taper are you trying?

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I did a fairly rapid crossover from clonazepam to diazepam. I actually felt better getting off the clonazepam. While Ashton recommends a crossover done in steps according to a schedule, in order to give diazepam time to build up in your system, some can switch faster. You apparently favor the diazepam over the clonazepam, like me. As long as you are feeling good, that's a good thing. Clonazepam has a long half-like, not as long as diazepam. The diazepam caught up with you, especially at the amount you are taking.

 

It sounds like you've got everything under control. You'll be able to do those 2 mg cuts initially, but eventually you'll need to drop to 1 mg. You'll know when you can't. The recommendation is 5 to 10% of your dose, you're well within that. There's a dedicated thread her for Valium/diazepam support. I posted there, but just started in the 3 and under thread, as I finally made it to 3 mg.

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I did a fairly rapid crossover from clonazepam to diazepam. I actually felt better getting off the clonazepam. While Ashton recommends a crossover done in steps according to a schedule, in order to give diazepam time to build up in your system, some can switch faster. You apparently favor the diazepam over the clonazepam, like me. As long as you are feeling good, that's a good thing. Clonazepam has a long half-like, not as long as diazepam. The diazepam caught up with you, especially at the amount you are taking.

 

It sounds like you've got everything under control. You'll be able to do those 2 mg cuts initially, but eventually you'll need to drop to 1 mg. You'll know when you can't. The recommendation is 5 to 10% of your dose, you're well within that. There's a dedicated thread her for Valium/diazepam support. I posted there, but just started in the 3 and under thread, as I finally made it to 3 mg.

 

Hello BenzoLottie,

 

 

Yeah I guess I am a lucky one to just switch straight from clonazepam to diazepam. I am still new to all of this but I am trying to follow Ashton Manual so whatever percentage drop her chart says is what I am trying. Next week I will see how it goes with the 10mg/6mg/10mg doses.

 

When you say you made it to 3mg I am guessing that is 3mg/day total? I will look for your post on the Valium/diazepam support section.  :thumbsup:

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When you say you made it to 3mg I am guessing that is 3mg/day total? I will look for your post on the Valium/diazepam support section.  :thumbsup:

 

Yup, 3 mg a day total, all at bedtime. I was on twice a day clonazepam, rapidly crossed over to diazepam. Tapered off the am dose, at 10 mg I was taking it all at bedtime. I'm stopping the cut-and-hold and switching to a daily micro taper as soon as I get the nail file. Have scale and divided plastic box to weigh out and place my filed pills in. Basically creating my own tapering strips, a month at a time. Using tips from Bob7 on figuring out how much. Plus a video on YouTube where someone demonstrates this. I'm a little overwhelmed, but I'm going to try. I was hoping to cut-and-hold all the way like Joeb did, Joeb was doing 25 mg every two weeks before stepping off.

 

ETA: Here's a link to that support thread; http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=96753.0

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I am just hoping to follow Ashton Manual and hope to get down to 1mg diazepam at night then just quit after 2 weeks of that but I do have a long ways to go.
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Benzolottie,

 

Hi!

 

I'm glad you felt better getting off the CL. I wonder if I would too. I think the body responds better to the Valium. When you say, fast taoer to Valium, what did that look like?  I just started a taper from Clon to Valium and am crossing over , so im curious what others have done.

 

 

My prescriber is willing to do what works for me, but i just started 2/15.  I was on 0.5 CL 3x/day.

 

Step one of taper is:

0.5 Cl am, 0.5 cl afternoon, 0.375 CL and 5 mg valium at bedtime. Does this sound right?  Thanks:)

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Benzolottie,

 

Hi!

 

I'm glad you felt better getting off the CL. I wonder if I would too. I think the body responds better to the Valium. When you say, fast taoer to Valium, what did that look like?  I just started a taper from Clon to Valium and am crossing over , so im curious what others have done.

 

 

My prescriber is willing to do what works for me, but i just started 2/15.  I was on 0.5 CL 3x/day.

 

Step one of taper is:

0.5 Cl am, 0.5 cl afternoon, 0.375 CL and 5 mg valium at bedtime. Does this sound right?  Thanks:)

 

I didn't follow Ashton, my new provider and I didn't know about Ashton, she just knew that diazepam would be better for me, and tapering would be less tedious. She let me decide how fast I wanted to switch, I was eager to get off clonazepam. I went wayyyyy faster than Ashton recommends. For me, it was the right decision. Within weeks I eliminated both doses of clonazepam, and cold turkeyed the bedtime dose (5 mg) of Ambien, because the diazepam made me sleepy. I had switched from morning and late evening clonazepam, to morning and bedtime diazepam. I was entirely on diazepam, and had zero withdrawals. I waited a while to stabilize on diazepam, then hit tolerance withdrawal, started tapering.

 

I found this forum, and learned about Ashton, gave the manual to my provider who said it went along with her understanding that a slow, gradual, symptom-based taper was the way to go. And I saw Ashton's crossover guides, realized I had done it much too fast. I felt better getting off the clonazepam, my provider just had me stay on the diazepam, and wait to build it up in my system.

 

While a rapid crossover worked for me, many on here have done that and failed. howmanytimes is one member who crossed too quickly and crashed. Some could never complete it, they tansitioned back to their original benzo and tapered off of that. I would not recommend anybody do what I did, or what Zippo did, we are exceptions to the recommended method.

 

I do see an error in the substitution of step one. .5 mg of clonazepam is equal to 10 mg diazepam. Look at this table here ( https://www.benzoinfo.com/ashtonmanual/chapter1/#table1 ) from the Ashton Manual. You also should not be tapering until you have completely crossed over to diazepam. Step one should look like this:

 

0,5 C am, 0.5 C afternoon and 10 mg Valium bedtime. Ashton actually has it as 0.5 C am, 0.5 afternoon, and ,25 C + 5 mg V at bedtime.  I just swapped out the 0.5 C to 10 mg V instead, and a week later did the same, and two weeks later cut the Ambien pills in half for 4 days, then stopped altogether. Here is Ashton's crossover and tapering schedule for 1.5 mg of C: https://www.benzoinfo.com/ashtonmanual/chapter2b/#schedule5 If you want to try swapping out 0.5 C to 10 mg V, rather than doing the switch of 0.5 C to 0.25 C + 5 mg V, it's up to you. The complete Ashton Manual can be found here: https://www.benzoinfo.com/ashtonmanual/  refer your doctor to it. 

 

You should gradually replace the C with the V.  Once you are entirely on V, you make your first cut.

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Hi :)

 

thanks for the reply.  Do you think the next step would be to follow Ashton's step one?  Which would be clon 0.25 and 5 mg valium at bedtime? I am already doing 0.5 CLON am , and 0.5  CLON afternoon.  I know this is an increase.

 

Currently, I'm doing this but 0.375 of th CLO at bedtime, not 0.25 and 5 mg valium

 

I'm confused about not tapering until the crossover is complete. I thought Ashton has a reduction of Clonazepam throughout with the replacement of Valium.

 

Sorry, I'm new to this! 

 

 

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Hi :)

 

thanks for the reply.  Do you think the next step would be to follow Ashton's step one?  Which would be clon 0.25 and 5 mg valium at bedtime? I am already doing 0.5 CLON am , and 0.5  CLON afternoon.  I know this is an increase.

 

Currently, I'm doing this but 0.375 of th CLO at bedtime, not 0.25 and 5 mg valium

 

I'm confused about not tapering until the crossover is complete. I thought Ashton has a reduction of Clonazepam throughout with the replacement of Valium.

 

Sorry, I'm new to this!

 

In just 4 days, you cut the equivalent of 6 mg Valium! That is a super big cut. It will catch up to you, and you will feel it. You are still in the window of correcting this, as Clonazepam's half life is still long, though not nearly as long as Valium. Look at schedule 5, stage 1. That's you. C 0.5 am, C 0.5 afternoon, C 0.25 + 5 mg Valium bedtime. If you feel comfortable trying it, you can skip to stage 2 which is C 0.5 am, C 0.5 afternoon, V 10 mg bedtime. Regardless, the total equivalent = 30 mg of V. As 0.5 mg C = 10 mg V. 

 

Your first cut is 2 mg at stage 6; 10 mg V am, 8 mg V afternoon, 10 mg V bedtime. You'll be able to cut by 2 mg at least until you reach 20 mg total V per day. Aston originally has 2 mg until one reaches 10 mg a day total. But that is now not recommended. It is better to go by 1 mg until one reaches 10 mg. That is what I had to do, and many others have done. Once I reached 7, I switched to .5 mg V. When I got to 5, I switched to .33 mg V. At 4 I switched to .25 mg as .33 mg was too much. I'm now at 3 mg and will be doing a daily micro taper (DMT).

 

The recommendation nowadays is no more than 5 to 10% of your total dose should be cut.  It's a symptom-based taper. If you are having too many symptoms, you need to reduce the cuts and slow things down. The idea is to minimize withdrawal symptoms so you stay relatively stable and functioning. Look at the link I provided you for chapter2b/#schedule5.

 

Feel free to ask questions on the Valium/Diazepam thread found here as you taper. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=96753.0;topicseen You'll find help and support from others who have and are going through this.

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HI,

 

Maybe its my benzo brain.. but I was told on here I was being prescribed more than my original dose now. I didn't even think I was tapering yet per se.

 

Bc she reduced 0.5 to 0.375- 0.125. plus the 5 mg valium. Someone thought that math was I was increasing the total dose, and not tapering at all.

 

Pamster, maybe you can chime in. ( I think she said above)

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I’m confused too calisurfing, here are my calculations from your other thread, maybe BenzoLottie can help us both understand.

Oh good, I’m glad we’ve got the decimal points in the right place now.  ;)

 

Have you seen this calculator, it can be helpful. https://clincalc.com/Benzodiazepine/

 

Let’s add this up to see where we are.

 

.5 Clonazepam + .5 Clonazepam + .375 Clonazepam + 5 mg Valium roughly equivalent to .25 Clonazepam = 1.625 mgs.  It looks like you’ve increased your dose.

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Hello, calisurfiing20.

 

Am I understanding correctly that your original dosing schedule for clonazepam was:

 

0.5mg clonazepam + 0.5mg clonazepam + 0.5mg clonazepam

 

And, for the first stage of your crossover to diazepam, your dosing schedule is now:

 

0.5mg clonazepam + 0.5mg clonazepam + (0.375mg clonazepam + 5mg diazepam)

 

If so, you reduced your total daily clonazepam dose by 0.125mg (this is about a 9% reduction). HOWEVER, you replaced the 0.125mg of clonazepam with 5mg of diazepam.  Fyi this is double the amount of diazepam that Ashton suggests (per her equivalence table, 0.125mg of clonazepam equals 2.5mg of diazepam). 

 

It might help you to think of what you are doing in terms of phases:

 

Phase I is withdrawing from clonazepam while substituting diazepam.

 

Phase II is the stabilization and steady state accumulation period.

 

Phase III is the reduction of diazepam.

 

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Hio Libertas,

 

Thanks for helping me out here... kinda panicked when someone said this plan was like I cut  6 mg of valium in 4 days...

 

Yes, that is correct.

 

I was on 0.5 clon am, 0.5 clon afternoon, and 0.5 clon bedtime.  Had major inter dose withdrawals

 

The doctor told me to do:

0.5 clon am. 0.5 clon  afternoon and 0.375 clon And 5 mg Valium at bedtime

 

 

Someone said this plan was equivalent to 6 mg cut valium in 4 days.  ( i started the plan on 2/15. That's not correct, right? That's what Pamster and I were confused about.

If anything, I'm being over medicated not reducing right? ( according to Ashton)

 

 

 

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You are most welcome, calisurfing20.

 

You are doing just fine.  You are correct that your Valium dose may be on the high side per Ashton, however, Ashton is just a guide.

 

If you discover that substituting 5mg of diazepam for 0.125mg of clonazepam is too much for you, then you and your prescriber can simply reduce the amount of diazepam used.

 

What matters is how you as an individual are responding to this first stage of the crossover.  So I hope you are keeping a daily log of any withdrawal symptoms you might experience due to the reduction in clonazepam as well as how you are reacting to the introduction of the diazepam.

 

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