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Help with math - titrating from 6.5mg, dry cutting 2mg valium tabs on scale


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Hi everyone,

 

I started taper from 10mg valium with 1st 3 cuts being 1mg each down to 7mg. A real struggle. Barely functioning (no life). Last cut was 0.5mg, but hit just as hard and I finally realise that, once I find some stability, I need to go slower and smoother with DMT (dry cut) using 2mg valium tabs and jewellers scale. I’m looking to cut daily at 10% per month, holding at times if necessary depending on any perceived build up of symptoms. Wondering if there’s possibly someone out there who can work out a tapering schedule for me to follow. I just don’t know how to do the mathematics to achieve that 10% per month from 6.5mg valium.

 

If someone could kindly help me with this, it would be so greatly appreciated.

 

Warmly

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Hi Winters sun,

I will help you with math.

Do you have a scale yet?  If not, here is one:

https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Weigh-Precision-Milligram-Calibration/dp/B011J88S8M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541012152&sr=8-1&keywords=Smart+Weigh+Premium+High+Precision+Digital+Milligram+Scale+with+Case%2C+Tweezers%2C+Calibration+Weights+and+Three+Weighing+Pans%2C+50+x+0.001g

 

I need to know the mg of one of your pills and the weight of the pill. 

If you have a choice of using 2mg pills or 1 mg pill, use 1 mg.

 

I will then make you a taper schedule for 10% per month.  Do you want to reduce a little each day or each week?

 

 

 

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Hi Winters sun,

I will help you with math.

Do you have a scale yet?  If not, here is one:

https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Weigh-Precision-Milligram-Calibration/dp/B011J88S8M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541012152&sr=8-1&keywords=Smart+Weigh+Premium+High+Precision+Digital+Milligram+Scale+with+Case%2C+Tweezers%2C+Calibration+Weights+and+Three+Weighing+Pans%2C+50+x+0.001g

 

I need to know the mg of one of your pills and the weight of the pill. 

If you have a choice of using 2mg pills or 1 mg pill, use 1 mg.

 

I will then make you a taper schedule for 10% per month.  Do you want to reduce a little each day or each week?

I forgot to mention this.

I am very happy doing the math for you to make all this happen.

However, I usually at least ask people to look at this video first because it is an easier way to taper.  You might try it first and if it fails, you buy the scale and we do the more complicated method.

 

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Hi Bob7

 

Thank you for your help!

 

I have ordered a scale, in fact, it is the same one on your link to your own taper. However, that video on water titration does look so much easier to do, so I will give it a try!

 

I do just have a question for you about the process. Am I right in assuming that I would continue (daily) putting my 6.5mg of Valium in 300ml of water and then just following the video instructions of pulling 1ml extra out each day to achieve that same 10 month taper? Is it that easy?

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Hi Bob7

 

Thank you for your help!

 

I have ordered a scale, in fact, it is the same one on your link to your own taper. However, that video on water titration does look so much easier to do, so I will give it a try!

 

I do just have a question for you about the process. Am I right in assuming that I would continue (daily) putting my 6.5mg of Valium in 300ml of water and then just following the video instructions of pulling 1ml extra out each day to achieve that same 10 month taper? Is it that easy?

Yes it really is that easy.

Make sure you stir it really well and rinse the jar drinking the rinse water each day.

A lot of people start with this until they get really low in the taper and then they might switch to another method if things get difficult.

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Winter sun: Am I remembering correctly that you have 2mg tablets?  Also, would you please let us know your daily dosing schedule?  Do you dose once a day or multiple times a day?  If the latter, what times and what amounts?

 

Bob7:  Are you aware of members who have used multiple 2mg diazepam tablets to create the do-it-yourself (DIY) water suspension demonstrated in the video?  The only cases I’ve read about have used a single 2mg tablet or one-half of a tablet.  I’m wondering if it would be be less risky to take as much of the daily dose in regular tablet form as possible and only use the DIY water suspension to make reductions in dose.

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I cannot speak to which way is more risky.

I think both would work but Winter Sun could first do 300 mL of water with half the drug and then repeat with the other half but it would take twice as long.  I guess they could remove 2mL per day to restore the time.

There are many ways to zero benzo. I say try one and if it works, continue.  If not, switch it up.

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My apologies for not making myself clear … my assumption is that one would adjust the DIY suspension ‘recipe’ to achieve the target taper rate so the length of the taper would not be affected. 

 

We have multiple members (past and current) who use a combination of regular tablets and liquid to taper.  They make their reductions using the liquid.  When they reach a dose lower than that of the lowest dose tablet available (e.g. 2mg in the case of diazepam), they switch to all liquid.

 

Using regular tablets ‘as is’ does not involve drug modification/manipulation whereas making a DIY suspension does.  Per our Titration: FAQs, drug modification/manipulation conveys risk.

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Winters sun - if you want me to recompute to try Libertas suggestion, let me know.

You will need to tell me your total daily dose now, how many mg are in a tablet, and do you want to DLT one tablet at a time.

 

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Libertas: sorry for slow reply. I didn’t realise there were multiple replies.

 

Yes… 2mg tabs, dosing morning and night. 3.5mg 10pm nightly and 3mg 10am daily.

 

You’ve both given me much to think about. All valuable information.

 

Libertas: you mentioned your surprise that I decided to stick with the diazepam rather than cross back to clonazepam, and to be honest, I don’t know if I’ve made the right choice. That choice was made after talking with Reconnexion who strongly urged me to just stick with the diazepam, but I’m now doubting the advice. I’m thinking I should’ve listened to my intuition. Last couple of weeks have been so difficult. I’ve barely slept in a week. Last night I finally got about 2hrs sleep early in the evening and then woke up to have my nightly dose, which after dosing, then sent my anxiety soaring and I haven’t been able to get back to sleep at all. Am now reassessing the crossover again.

However, I would then be stuck with only 0.5mg clonazepam tabs which would make cutting more difficult, especially in regard to making a suspension whilst maintaining part of my dose in tablet form. With the diazepam, I can’t help thinking about how horrid the drug has felt ever since crossing, as apposed to when I was on clonazepam, which was very agreeable before going cold turkey. I just can’t see myself ever stabilising on the diazepam in order to make further cuts as it feels so horrid most after dosing. I really have a big decision to make. Whichever way I go… I will need some help.

 

Bob7: thank you so much for your support and offer of guidance

 

I feel really lost at the moment, but will make some decisions about what to do and then reply to the both of you soon!

 

Thank you!

 

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Hello, Winters sun.

 

Thank you for sharing the backstory on why you decided to stay on the diazepam.  The reason I expressed surprise about your decision was because you were having considerable issues with it.  Sadly, it sounds like those issues have not resolved.

 

Whatever you decide, please rest assured we’ll be here to support you.

 

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Hi Libertas,

 

I can’t express how much that means to hear those words…

 

I’m extremely grateful to both ‘you and bob7’ and anyone else who has supported me here on benzobuddies.

 

I wish I could be more present and supportive to others going through a similar experience at this time, but I’m just really struggling to pick myself up at the moment. I just tell myself that once I’m more able to be there for others, I will be.

 

I haven’t made any decisions at this point, but I do want to give you an idea of the options I’ve been exploring over the last few days to get your opinion on any potential downsides.

 

Originally, I liked the simplicity of the video bob7 provided, however, I realised I would have to keep diluting the same daily dosage amount for the entire taper and remove more and more each day before dosing, and I’m concerned over whether my doctor would continue to prescribe the same amount throughout the ten month taper without her seeing a consistent reduction in the medication she’s prescribing. She has no understanding of titration, DMT, DLMT, or even slow tapering in general, and has shut down to listening to any information I could provide her. So I’m now looking at a DIY liquid taper, but also keeping as much of my dosage as I can in pill form (as you mentioned). I found the link by Slownsteady which basically does the math for you. I’ve played around with it quite a bit over the last couple of days to familiarise myself with it, and it seems very easy to follow. I haven’t yet decided whether to cross to clonazepam or continue to taper from diazepam, but I’ve worked out the DIY liquid process and taper schedule for both. On one hand, the 2mg diazepam tabs would be easier to maintain larger more accurate portions of dosage in pill form for longer, as apposed to the 0.5mg clonazepam tabs, and would I need to dose multiple times with the clonazepam to avoid inter-dose withdrawals, but the question still remains; can I tolerate the diazepam? I’m still really struggling with it. The last cut I made was 0.5mg 17 days ago and I’m not doing well. However, in a state of considerable distress, I did do something silly and changed my dosage times as well as substituted 2 doses with clonazepam over the last few days to see if I could find some relief, and I wonder if it’s possible that in doing so, I may have actually screwed with my system and extended my withdrawal time line?

 

The upside to the clonazepam is that I already have 200 clonazepam tabs and would only need 140 to complete the taper, although (given how sensitive my body seems to be) there would most likely be times I would have to hold for a few days if symptoms escalated too much. This would mean no more potentially frustrating visits to the doctors for prescriptions.

 

Im also waiting on scales which apparently will be here on Thursday, so there’s also the possibility of doing a DMT dry cut using the same program to create a taper schedule. The scales I ordered are the same as the ones bob7 used for his taper. However, I’m not completely on top of how this works, given that tablets can all have different weights. I have to look into it more thoroughly. It suspect it would also probably be more difficult to taper from 0.5mg clonazepam tabs if having to dose multiple times a day. 2mg diazepam tabs would be easier. I also have a much better pill cutter on its way so I will be able to get much more precise halves and quarters for the pill part of my dosages than with the useless pill splitter from the local pharmacy.

 

The problem is, STILL, I just don’t know if the diazepam doesn’t agree with me and is having paradoxical effects or if I’m in some sort of tolerance withdrawal. It’s so confusing. My concern in crossing over to clonazepam is in finding that I’m having the exact same experience.

 

I think I will just use the next 2 weeks to see if I can level out and become more functional, after which I’ll decide if I cross to clonazepam first or just start micro tapering from diazepam using either the dry cut or DIY liquid.

 

I have one main concern I’d like to share with you both, and it’s about which solvent to use. I can’t use the ORA-PLUS because of the carrageenan and xanthum gum (intolerances), and maybe other additives as well, so I’m wondering if you have an opinion on using the 40% vodka (2ml per 1mg) to break down the benzo? I know there are those who are wary of alcohol because it affects the Gabba receptors like benzodiazepines, but would it really have much affect in such a very tiny dose?

 

The only other way I can think of tapering is using the same technique as bob7 in his video, using capsules, but for someone with my benzo brain, it seems a bit too challenging.

 

Again, thank you for all your support! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If I do decide to switch to clonazepam for the taper, would I do it the same way you advised previously… Substitute one dose and wait at least 3 or more days before substituting the other and then wait long enough to stabilise? Also, should I expect the cross over to be rough? I’ve also decided that if I cross to clonazepam soon I will go from 6.5mg diazepam to 0.5 clonazepam (updosing) to give myself a better chance of stabilising rather than trying to work out a lower, but equivalent dose.

 

Last night I felt so unwell, and all of a sudden I realised I was about to pass out from the anxiety around the il-feeling. Sweat started to pour out of me and everything went yellow, which I’ve experienced in the past. I managed to make it to the front door, get myself outside, and then lay on the ground in the freezing cold conditions to try and stop myself from passing out. I was soaked in sweat. I then briefly went and asked my house mate to come out and check on me every now and then to make sure I was ok. Eventually I settled enough to make my way back inside. It’s scary when I have these turns, and I don’t know if it’s the diazepam or just withdrawal. It happened about an hour before I was due to dose. Maybe it had something to do with changing my dosing times and substituting two of my doses over the previous couple of days with clonazepam. I don’t know. But I never feel far away from having another turn and passing out. I was concerned it was a seizure type of event, but I’ve been informed that it is more likely my system shutting down because of the intense anxiety, panic and fear. Still, I probably should get it checked out.

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Hi Bob7,

 

I just went back over this thread and realised I didn’t answer the questions from one of your replies. Sorry about that! My brain has trouble keeping focus.

 

Daily dose of 6.5m diazepam - 3.5mg nightly and 3mg daily using 2mg tablets.

 

I think I would do one tablet at a time.

 

I will get back to you as soon as I decide whether I can taper from the diazepam or if I need to cross back over to clonazepam to find some stability. The diazepam has always felt horrid from the beginning and I may do better switching back. I’ll let you know what I decide as soon as I know myself.

 

Much appreciation

 

 

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It is a hard journey but remember, the longest journey starts with one step.  May you find yours.  You may have to walk with a rock in your shoe.  I do not know of anyone who every tapered without symptoms.
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Completely on board with you, Bob7. I certainly don’t expect a symptom free taper. I just have to regain enough functionality to at least take a minimal amount of care of myself; make a meal, have a shower, etc, before tapering further. Feel I’m still in the same acute withdrawal I experienced when I stupidly went cold turkey from the clonazepam, only I’m even less functional now because of the constant insomnia wearing my body down over time. I started tapering 1mg from 10mg down to 7mg and then my last cut was only 0.5, but hit me with the same force as the 1mg cuts. That’s why I know I have to do a DMT from here. I never really stabilise at all between cuts, I just reach a minimal degree of functionality. Its brutal, but I know I’m not the only one suffering, or to have suffered this hellish ride. Just need to find my footing to move forward with a DMT.

 

I’ll get my head together and get back to you very soon!

 

Cheers, Bob7

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Completely on board with you, Bob7. I certainly don’t expect a symptom free taper. I just have to regain enough functionality to at least take a minimal amount of care of myself; make a meal, have a shower, etc, before tapering further. Feel I’m still in the same acute withdrawal I experienced when I stupidly went cold turkey from the clonazepam, only I’m even less functional now because of the constant insomnia wearing my body down over time. I started tapering 1mg from 10mg down to 7mg and then my last cut was only 0.5, but hit me with the same force as the 1mg cuts. That’s why I know I have to do a DMT from here. I never really stabilise at all between cuts, I just reach a minimal degree of functionality. Its brutal, but I know I’m not the only one suffering, or to have suffered this hellish ride. Just need to find my footing to move forward with a DMT.

 

I’ll get my head together and get back to you very soon!

 

Cheers, Bob7

In case it helps, I will share.

When I was VERY BAD in the middle of my taper, my doctor gave me Buspar.  It reduced anxiety and let me continue my taper.  After 8 weeks, I stopped the Buspar with no problem.

 

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Hello, Winters sun.

 

I am sorry you are having such a difficult time.  Might I offer a bit of advice courtesy of the American author Mark Twain?  He wrote:

 

“The secret of getting ahead is getting started. The secret of getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks into small manageable tasks, and starting on the first one.”

 

You’ve already identified your first task — that is, deciding whether to cross to clonazepam or continue to taper from diazepam.

 

Once you’ve made that decision, we can proceed from there.

 

In the interim, I will share two pieces of information. First, OraPlus is not a solvent but rather a suspending vehicle.  Second, there are more unknowns than knowns when it comes to ‘recipes’ for do-it-yourself (DIY) liquids developed by well-meaning but (for the most part) unqualified laypeople. Here’s a link to a thread where I discussed this in more detail with another member:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=269733.msg3387711#msg3387711

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Hello Libertas, I too am titrating from valium but the process comes with questions and some confusion. Currently I'm at 3.5mg A.M. and 6.75mg P.M. I started both AM and PM at 7mg each or 14 total per day. I've been reducing the day time dose by 3% and holding for 3 or 4 weeks. I pretty much haven't touched the night time dose thinking at least that dose will help me with sleep which it seems to have done. If I do get up to answer natures call when I get back to bed my mind races, I see light flashes in my eyes and other"pleasant"stuff. My question is in your opinion is this taper slower than it needs to be and do you think there's a problem in combinding the A.M and the P.M. dose together and what time of the day would be suitable to take it? I'm using a scale to make up the two doses so a single dose preparation would be nice.I know the bottom line with all this is how well my body handles the taper but you seem to be well versed in this matter. Oh, another factor for consideration is I am in the elderly age group, combat VietNam vet with PTSD and GAD. Thanks for any insight you might have.
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Bob7: thank you, I’ll  keep the buspar in mind!

 

Libertas: thanks for the advise… definitely trying to stay present, doing my best to focus on one task at a time, one minute at a time. I’m not always successful, but I can see the way that having this experience offers a unique opportunity to train one’s mind into being completely present in each moment. It’s a difficult, ongoing lesson, so I’ll just keep doing my best to watch where I focus my mind and energy  :thumbsup:

 

Yes, you’re right, of course… I remember reading Ora-plus is a suspension vehicle, it was on the label, but my memory and inability to recall simple words and information is terrible. I remember writing ‘solvent’ and thinking “that’s not the right word”, but then I thought “Libertas will correct me on that, anyway” lol.

 

Libertas & Bob7: I read the link you provided (Libertas) and I realised I do have some concerns about DIY liquids. But I also have concerns around dry micro tapering (haha), variations in pill weight, and the accuracy of the scales), but I have decided to do the dry micro taper, or at least give it a go. I read I have to weigh up 10 or so tablets to get an average weight for each individual tab, but I’m not sure whether that means I then have to crush up all 10 tabs to powder and weigh up each dose from the powder, or just file individual pills for each dose. I figure that if I just file each individual pill to dose, then gaining the average weight of ten pills will have been pointless in achieving a more accurate taper cut. Am I making sense, or is it just my benzo brain?

 

I have worked out a taper schedule for dry micro taper on the program link slownsteady provided, but I do also need some feedback on how to use the scales to get the most accurate cuts; I hear that you should put a weight (penny) on the scale before weighing a cut because they are more accurate when they are in middle of their weight range? Does this mean you would put that weight on, tare, then remove the weight before weighing each cut? I hope I’m making at least ‘some’ sense with these questions. I’m using the same scales as Bob7, so maybe he can offer some advise on how to most accurately use those scales.

 

Oh, and importantly, I’m going to try tapering from diazepam 2mg tabs.

 

Maybe I could use a liquid taper once I’m down to small doses, if needed.

 

Any and all advice and guidance is greatly appreciated!

 

With gratitude

 

 

Bubba13: All the best with your taper! I wish I could offer some advice, but I don’t feel at all qualified. I’m sure Libertas will give you all the pros and cons to weigh up, regarding your questions. Take care!

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Hello Libertas, I too am titrating from valium but the process comes with questions and some confusion. Currently I'm at 3.5mg A.M. and 6.75mg P.M. I started both AM and PM at 7mg each or 14 total per day. I've been reducing the day time dose by 3% and holding for 3 or 4 weeks. I pretty much haven't touched the night time dose thinking at least that dose will help me with sleep which it seems to have done. If I do get up to answer natures call when I get back to bed my mind races, I see light flashes in my eyes and other"pleasant"stuff. My question is in your opinion is this taper slower than it needs to be and do you think there's a problem in combinding the A.M and the P.M. dose together and what time of the day would be suitable to take it? I'm using a scale to make up the two doses so a single dose preparation would be nice.I know the bottom line with all this is how well my body handles the taper but you seem to be well versed in this matter. Oh, another factor for consideration is I am in the elderly age group, combat VietNam vet with PTSD and GAD. Thanks for any insight you might have.

 

Greetings, Bubba13. First and foremost, thank you for bravely serving our country when called upon to do so. 

 

I’ll be happy to offer my feedback but would you do me a favor first?  That is, create your own thread on the Titration board so other members and I can focus on your case as opposed to both yours and Winters sun’s?

 

I’ve included instructions below on how to do so in case you need them.

 

Instructions:

 

(1) Copy your post above.

 

(2) Go to this link:

 

Titration:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=164.0

 

(3) Click the New Topic button. 

 

(4) Enter a subject heading (e.g. Help with diazepam taper).

 

(5) Paste your post into the text box.

 

(6) Click the Post button.

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Greetings, Winters sun.  Tip of the hat for making not one but two important decisions: (1) you plan to taper from diazepam using 2mg tablets and (2) you wish to trial a dry taper approach.

 

Bob7 is one of our dry taper gurus so I’m sure we’ll be hearing from him soon.

 

I applaud you for figuring out how to use that online taper plan tool (imo it’s poorly designed, difficult to use, and buggy; however some members have found it helpful).  Please do not fall into the trap of thinking you will be able to follow the plan it generates from start to finish.  One of the keys to a successful taper is recognizing that taper plans are living documents — they must be monitored and adjusted on a regular basis.  For example, I personally give my taper plan a ‘check up’ and — if needed — a ‘tune up’ at least once a month.

 

How will you know if your taper plan needs to be adjusted?  By reviewing the data in your daily taper log. See suggestions on how to set up and use a simple taper log below.

 

Re: your question about using a liquid taper when you get down to lower doses …

 

We have many members who do this. There are several different options for preparing do-it-yourself liquids using regular diazepam tablets as the source of the Active Pharmaceutical Ingredient as well as strategies for minimizing the risks associated with this type of drug modification/manipulation. 

 

Set Up and Use a Taper Log

 

Examples of data to collect include:

 

- The date

- Time(s) and amounts(s) of drug ingested

- Daily rating of your withdrawal symptoms (0 = no symptoms; 10 = intolerable symptoms)

- Daily rating of your functionality (0 = able to perform all essential daily tasks; 10 = unable to perform any essential daily tasks)

 

If you are a visual learner, you may find it helpful to graph the daily ratings of symptoms and functionality. Doing this will enable you to see trends/patterns in the data.

 

Review the data in your taper journal on a regular basis and adjust your taper rate and/or interval if needed.

 

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[d1...]

Totally understand, Libertas. I’ve been going over the taper plan, playing around with it, just to see what modifications I can make along the way should I need to slow down or hold at times. My intention is to find a taper rate where I can aline that taper rate with my own personal healing rate, as best I can, and I realise this will mean a continual “fine tuning” as you’ve advised. In doing this, I realise I have to let go of timelines and learn to be much more patient in the process to becoming Benzo free. I will definitely be doing a taper log.

 

Thanks for all your help!

 

I’ll just wait for Bob7 to chime in, when he finds time.

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You’ve just made my day, Winters sun.  I’ve watched far too many members crash and burn because they blindly followed taper plans generated by tools like the one you found.  Your observations about letting go of timelines, being patient, and keeping a taper log are spot on — you are doing all the right things to set yourself up for success. 
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