Water Titration w/Vodka.

If my liquified dose equals .6 of 1.6 mg of diazepam, would I top it off with 60 ml of water?

 

I don't understand the question.

If my liquified dose equals .6 of 1.6 mg of diazepam, would I top it off with 60 ml of water?

 

I don't understand the question.

 

Neither do I.

I think I understand. You are going to take 1mg in tablet form and then titrate the extra 0.6mg, to equal your full dose of 1.6mg?

 

In that case you would mix up a normal titration amount. I prefer using 1mg with 100ml of liquid, but the ratio is your choice. If you use the 100ml method, the 0.6mg portion of your dose would equal 60ml of the 100ml liquid mixture, meaning you would discard 40ml (or keep it for part of your next day's dosing).

Thanks Diaz-Pam. I was hoping I wouldn't have to end up with a lot of extra stuff but it sounds good.

Bump. Cut down to 8mg of Valium today and am on 4 2mg pills.

 

In about a month or so, I'm going to be switching over to the Valium/Vodka taper to see if I can't get a bit more stability on my way down.

 

Thanks for keeping this thread alive.

 

Dan

I'd just like to suggest y'all consider using 151 proof Everclear instead of Vodka, unless you can find Vodka at over 140 proof. I haven't checked the other benzos (they are all soluble in alcohol except Klonopin), but Ativan's maximum solubility in alcohol is at 160 proof. That means you have to use more vodka than Everclear, which means you are dealing with larger volumes of more dilute solutions with more water in them. Water accelerates the decomposition of benzos.

 

So, for all those reasons you might consider trying Everclear. You might find you get better results. Use the 151, not the 200 proof. It certainly works well for me

 

 

Aweigh

I'd just like to suggest y'all consider using 151 proof Everclear instead of Vodka, unless you can find Vodka at over 140 proof. I haven't checked the other benzos (they are all soluble in alcohol except Klonopin), but Ativan's maximum solubility in alcohol is at 160 proof. That means you have to use more vodka than Everclear, which means you are dealing with larger volumes of more dilute solutions with more water in them. Water accelerates the decomposition of benzos.

 

So, for all those reasons you might consider trying Everclear. You might find you get better results. Use the 151, not the 200 proof. It certainly works well for me

 

 

Aweigh

 

 

Also, I want to add that Klonopin is soluble in alcohol (max is 6.2mg/ml in 90%).  An interesting fact: on a Valium-equivalent basis the order of solubility is Ativan, Klonopin, Valium, Librium.

Hello SG57,

 

My apologies for disseminating misinformation. Do you have a reference for the solubility data, especially the order of solubility? I spent some time looking for that, and could not find a reference or a commercial liquid preparation. I know several people who would be thrilled to know that Klonopin will dissolve in alcohol.

 

Aweigh

Hey Aweigh,

 

Go to this link.  If you look at Reply #37 the references are at the bottom.  A researcher named Jouyban has published what looks like very solid data for A, K, V, and Librium in alcohol/water mixtures.  I plotted his data in the chart in Reply 37.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.msg1540866#msg1540866

why vodka and not milk? just wondering

why vodka and not milk? just wondering

 

Hi Lainey, Milk work great for both V and K.  Some V and A people have found that using a small amount of high proof alcohol to pre-dissolve the V or A, then topping it up with a lot of water works well.  I think this can be extended to K, but no one has tried it yet.

thanks I just read that Milk is better.

Hey Aweigh,

 

Go to this link.  If you look at Reply #37 the references are at the bottom.  A researcher named Jouyban has published what looks like very solid data for A, K, V, and Librium in alcohol/water mixtures.  I plotted his data in the chart in Reply 37.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.msg1540866#msg1540866

*********************************************************************

 

Hi SG57,

Bingo! I’ve been looking for these data for about 2 ½ years. I found a paper by the same research group, but it only studied lorazepam. It confirms the 18 mg/mL solubility (Jordan Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Volume 5, No. 2, 2012). For some reason, the references in this paper, which is fairly recent, don’t contain any other work by the same group — which would have led me to what you have found.

 

When you ask people to verify your conversion of the solubility units on the y-axis to mg/mL, that would require access to the complete original paper, correct?

 

A couple of points that folks might find useful:

 

If you dissolve a benzo in a small amount of alcohol, it will go into solution, although you may not notice it because about 99% of the tablet is insoluble. If you then add a quantity of water to that solution, it will become too dilute to hold the benzo, which will come back out of solution, also known as precipitation. If you look carefully through transmitted light and know what to look for, you can see it happening. I keep my alcohol solutions fairly concentrated (~ 0.2 mg/mL) and only dilute them with water right before consumption. Water accelerates the decomposition of benzos in solution — or dry, for that matter.

 

The reason I prefer alcohol to milk is that I don’t think benzos are soluble in milk. It’s just my opinion, but I’ve never seen any data to suggest that. I think the fat micelles in milk may help to stabilize the suspension of the benzo, but suspensions are not solutions. The main difference is that a solution is homogeneous — every milliliter contains the same amount of drug as every other milliliter. A suspension may or may not be homogeneous, depending on several variables. Only homogeneous solutions can be measured accurately. Obviously, milk works for a lot of people; I have a chemistry background, so I’m used to working with solutions and have little experience with suspensions. So, that’s why I go to the trouble of using alcohol.

 

Also, I noticed that the two papers you cite underneath the graph you so kindly prepared for us use solutions at different temperatures. The difference is only 5°C, but I think it’s good to be aware of.

 

Well, I hope you like my novel. Thanks again for going to the trouble to put these data into a graph for us. If you can PM me with the original units from the paper, I’d be happy to check the conversion.

 

Aweigh

 

Hey Aweigh,

 

Go to this link.  If you look at Reply #37 the references are at the bottom.  A researcher named Jouyban has published what looks like very solid data for A, K, V, and Librium in alcohol/water mixtures.  I plotted his data in the chart in Reply 37.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.msg1540866#msg1540866

*********************************************************************

 

Hi SG57,

Bingo! I’ve been looking for these data for about 2 ½ years. I found a paper by the same research group, but it only studied lorazepam. It confirms the 18 mg/mL solubility (Jordan Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Volume 5, No. 2, 2012). For some reason, the references in this paper, which is fairly recent, don’t contain any other work by the same group — which would have led me to what you have found.

 

When you ask people to verify your conversion of the solubility units on the y-axis to mg/mL, that would require access to the complete original paper, correct?

 

It's so good to be talking to someone who is also interested!  These articles are available online for free.  Complete text.  It is as if they did the study just for us, lol.

 

A couple of points that folks might find useful:

 

If you dissolve a benzo in a small amount of alcohol, it will go into solution, although you may not notice it because about 99% of the tablet is insoluble. If you then add a quantity of water to that solution, it will become too dilute to hold the benzo, which will come back out of solution, also known as precipitation. If you look carefully through transmitted light and know what to look for, you can see it happening. I keep my alcohol solutions fairly concentrated (~ 0.2 mg/mL) and only dilute them with water right before consumption. Water accelerates the decomposition of benzos in solution — or dry, for that matter.

 

I've been wondering about this.  Some V and A people pre-dissolve in a few ml of high proof alcohol, then add a lot of water to get it to 100ml and it seems to work fine for them.  No reports of problems.  Jouyban has measured the solubility on water for A, K, V, Librium, and X and they are as follows:

 

A - .05mg/ml

K - .03mg/ml

V - .04mg/ml

Lib - .11mg/ml

X - .04mg/ml

 

I'm thinking the benzo dissolves into the alcohol then, as it is diluted with water, the water has just enough solubility to keep it in solution.  After all, 100ml of water will hold 5mg A, 3mg K, 4mg V, 11mg Lib, and 4mg X, right?  I'm a mechanical engineer and have just enough familiarity with chemistry to be dangerous, so I am a little unsure of my conclusion.  What do you think?  Also, I think the method can be extended to K.

 

This method of pre-dissolving the benzo could be very important here at BB as it would be a "universal" method and the same instruction would apply to all benzos.  I think the simplicity of a universal method would reduce confusion and for that reason is powerful.  For example, "use 3ml Everclear 151 to pre-dissolve Xmg, then add water to make 100ml."  What do you think of this idea?

 

A strange thing about Librium.  People say it is water-soluble and those tapering it use plain water to make it liquid.  But here we see Jouyban says it is only a bit more soluble than the other benzos.  That contradiction bothers me.  Any thoughts on this?

 

The reason I prefer alcohol to milk is that I don’t think benzos are soluble in milk. It’s just my opinion, but I’ve never seen any data to suggest that. I think the fat micelles in milk may help to stabilize the suspension of the benzo, but suspensions are not solutions. The main difference is that a solution is homogeneous — every milliliter contains the same amount of drug as every other milliliter. A suspension may or may not be homogeneous, depending on several variables. Only homogeneous solutions can be measured accurately. Obviously, milk works for a lot of people; I have a chemistry background, so I’m used to working with solutions and have little experience with suspensions. So, that’s why I go to the trouble of using alcohol.

 

Milk seems to work VERY well for V and K.  I have absolutely scoured the net looking for confirmation of solubility, but have yet to find any.  However, to me the anecdotal reports at BB are overwhelming as to how good it works for V and K, and they are fat-soluble.  I don't know what is happening in the milk.  I notice research papers refer to solubility and "binding," a concept which escapes me.  I think the reason info is not there is that it just hasn't been researched for benzos.  But milk does have problems, like lactose for some people, and also the whole bacteria thing.

 

Also, I noticed that the two papers you cite underneath the graph you so kindly pr

epared for us use solutions at different temperatures. The difference is only 5°C, but I think it’s good to be aware of.

 

Yes, good point.  I figured it was negligible and ignored the temp difference.  There would probably be a knockdown for those drug values, but I haven't got a clue as to how much.

 

Well, I hope you like my novel. Thanks again for going to the trouble to put these data into a graph for us. If you can PM me with the original units from the paper, I’d be happy to check the conversion.

 

Aweigh

 

That would be great.  You can punch them up online and get the full text and units.  Let me know if you have any trouble finding them, but I think if you put "Jouyban" in the search field they will come up.

 

I'm so happy we connected, Aweigh!

Hi SG,

 

Yeah, it's good to connect with you as well. I'll respond to your questions in the detail they deserve, but I don't have time to do it right now. I don't understand why you would want to dilute a solution already containing a measured amount of benzo to 100 mL. Why not measure directly from the alcohol solution? A 1 mL class B pipette will measure to 0.01 mL accurately, or you could use a mechanical pipettor which would take you down to 0.001 mL.

 

I don't think the benzo stays in solution, the data indicate that it wouldn't. I think it comes out and the reason people are able to make it work is that it precipitates as particles small enough to remain in suspension in the water. I know a very sophisticated and knowledgeable taperer who is coming off of several psych meds and does them all in distilled water. She says she likes that better than milk because she can see what settles out and what remains in suspension. I think Intend knows her.

 

It's so cool that those papers are available free online. I just assumed that I would only be able to see the abstract. I'll have a look at them in the next few days.

 

More later, it's good to be in touch with you.

 

Aweigh

Hi SG,

 

Yeah, it's good to connect with you as well. I'll respond to your questions in the detail they deserve, but I don't have time to do it right now. I don't understand why you would want to dilute a solution already containing a measured amount of benzo to 100 mL. Why not measure directly from the alcohol solution? A 1 mL class B pipette will measure to 0.01 mL accurately, or you could use a mechanical pipettor which would take you down to 0.001 mL.

 

I don't think the benzo stays in solution, the data indicate that it wouldn't. I think it comes out and the reason people are able to make it work is that it precipitates as particles small enough to remain in suspension in the water. I know a very sophisticated and knowledgeable taperer who is coming off of several psych meds and does them all in distilled water. She says she likes that better than milk because she can see what settles out and what remains in suspension. I think Intend knows her.

 

It's so cool that those papers are available free online. I just assumed that I would only be able to see the abstract. I'll have a look at them in the next few days.

 

More later, it's good to be in touch with you.

 

Aweigh

 

The water dilution thing is something that was stumbled on I think.  A and V people are doing it without problems.  When I looked into how so much water could be used and still work I found that the solubility of benzos in water might be what makes it possible.  I found the solubility in water was not zero.  And as for pipettes, they seem like great tools and if I tapered again I might use one, but I don't think they are realistic for the general crowd on BB.  They need and want simple and easy.  And cheap. But if you have a pipette I agree, get rid of the water and use high proof alcohol.  Evaporation could also be a concern too.

 

I know who you are referring to, I think, who is such a proponent of water.  I am skeptical that it requires too much skill.  Water is not a good suspension agent.  She and others think milk is making a suspension, but I don't think so.  The results here are too good and consistent for it not to be dissolving or something akin to dissolving.  Yet I can't prove anything outright as it is not a subject that is researched.  I think she is simply not aware that alcohol can be used to such advantage.  I actually tried to broach the subject and pointed her to the data but she seemed disinterested so I dropped it.

 

I don't get why you would think the benzo would come back out.  The solubility is not zero.  Let's say you have .5mg A.  Solubility in water is .05mg/ml.  You only need 10ml to hold it in solution, right?  If it is already in solution in 3ml Everclear 151, then diluted with 97ml water, why would it come out?  The water would still have room for 4.5mg.  I see no driving force for precipitation.  I'm not arguing, just trying to understand the process and find ground truth.

 

Anyway, I'm really glad we are connecting.  I think about things and have no one to bounce ideas off of.  Like I said, I'm an ME and know enough chemistry to get myself in trouble.

Hi SG,

 

I think it would be simple to test this idea. Take your daily dose of benzo, put the tablets in solution in alcohol (or directly into the water, I don't think it matters for this test), give them an hour or so with agitation to extract the benzo into the water, and then filter the solution with a one micron filter. Because most of what you filter out will be binders and gunk and you'll be using fine filter paper, you might need a water aspirator — or a lot of patience. This filtration should remove any suspended particles and ensure that you are dealing only with a solution. Then use that solution for your daily dose. If the benzo went into the water you should feel okay. If it didn't, you should find that out pretty quickly. You could also do this test using thin layer chromatography — kits are available online, but you have to research the solvent system and appropriate coating for the TLC plates. I've done it to characterize something else I work with, but it's a hassle. If I still worked in a lab...

 

I wouldn't care to try working with water either. She may be able to pull it off but I agree with you, I think you better know what you're doing and move fast. She says the excipients settle out much faster than the smaller Ativan particles, so as long as there's plenty of excipient still in suspension she takes that to mean that all the Ativan is still there as well. Maybe so. And maybe the benzo really is in solution. I know the interpolated figures say it should be possible, but I have learned to be cautious when working at either end of a range. I don't think dissolution in a mixed solvent is as straightforward a process as in a single solvent, but I don't really have specifics. It should be possible to detect suspended particles in a clear solvent using transillumination or some form of spectrophotometry, but I've never done it.

 

Simple, easy and cheap – sounds like an attorney's practice. It takes about five minutes to learn how to use a pipette, but it reeks of science and sends people screaming from the room. I even included instructions on how to do pipetting in my most recent third-iteration simplified method, but I don't think it made much difference. When you say people are having really good results with milk, could you be a little more specific? Does that mean something like "it's so simple a six-year-old couldn't screw it up"?

 

Take care,

 

Aweigh

 

 

Question: If the solubility of A in water is .05mg/ml and we have 100ml there is a theoretical capacity to dissolve 5mg.  Do we expect a .5mg pill to dissolve?  How long do we expect it to take to dissolve?  My instinct tell me it will eventually dissolve, but may take a long time, yet I am not familiar enough to be sure.

 

That was an interesting comment about dissolving in mixture being different than single solvents.  That's the type of thing I would not be aware of without enough chemistry background.  Jouyban measured these solubilities at 10% intervals, but I think they were under constant agitation for like two days, if my memory is correct.

 

Yes, lol, pipettes do reek of science.  And I agree with you about them.  I've never handled one, but have researched them and I would think they would actually make things easier than syringes.  They seem like just the thing.

Hi Guys

I'm using 1ml of vodka and 99ml of water.  I don't know if it's working or not.

I'm tapering really slowly and don't seem to have any withdrawal side effects yet.

 

Any thoughts.

Hi Guys

I'm using 1ml of vodka and 99ml of water.  I don't know if it's working or not.

I'm tapering really slowly and don't seem to have any withdrawal side effects yet.

 

Any thoughts.

 

Then it must be working. 

Thanks builder 

I'm going to post in this thread because I forgot it existed and originally only posted in the other Valium daily taper thread: my originally question was,

 

Do people refrigerate their bottles of vodka? To which builder responded that it should be kept at room temp in a sealed container. I take it that the bottle itself qualifies? Or do people store vodka in other ways?

 

Thank you kindly.

I'm going to post in this thread because I forgot it existed and originally only posted in the other Valium daily taper thread: my originally question was,

 

Do people refrigerate their bottles of vodka? To which builder responded that it should be kept at room temp in a sealed container. I take it that the bottle itself qualifies? Or do people store vodka in other ways?

 

Thank you kindly.

 

I store my vodka and benzo mixture at room temperature.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

Just to be clear, I'm only talking about the vodka, not the mixture.

My fiancée has told me that vodka works better after it has been chilled (he has taken chem classes).

It will work just fine at room temp.

 

No need to complicate a proven procedure with another variable!