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do you recommend dry cutting tabs to a certain point before doing liquid titration, am on 16.75 mg val. not stable yet, new to this.
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Hi Sealynn,

 

If you are talking quite a few tablets per day, and you feel OK, then I would probably agree with that. It is up to you though. What size (dosage) are you Valium tablets? This affects how well you can manage a taper by splitting pills.

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I have both 5 mg and 2 mg tabs. have been on this amount since the (April)21st all at night. there is more to the story, was c/t xanax for 3 weeks in march/07, then found about valium taper, started it, then cut too fast from 20 mg. Could this big cut be affecting how severe my symptoms are? dont want to go into all them right now, but having big time problems. Dr. just wants to give me more pills........!Was wondering when liquid titration is appropriate. and ... how long to stay on this dosage before cutting. Trying to do Ashton, but it seems I have some complications. thanks for your help and interest.
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Sealynn,

 

Yes, too large a cut can definitely make your w/d symptoms severe. Did you cut to 16.75 mg directly from the 20 mg Valium?

 

Right now, you could either go back a step and "correct" this cut if it is causing you too many symptoms. You could go up to, say, 18 mg and see if you can stabilize there. However, if your symptoms are improving, you could just wait at this dose until you feel up to cutting again. But I wouldn't cut again until you feel stable ("stable" means your symptoms are bearable).

 

In general, liquid titration is used by people nearing the end of their taper, when you need to make really small cuts. But it's also helpful for people who can't tolerate cuts of any kind because their systems are too sensitive. Do you think your doctor would be willing to write a prescription for liquid Valium?

 

Another thing that might be coming into play here is that you did a c/t from Xanax. Sometimes, after you do a c/t, when you reinstate the benzo it doesn't have the effect that it did. Many people who have attempted c/t's in the past have more-difficult tapers.

 

Therese

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I dont have my notes in front of me, but , I started at 20 mg on  ?? date, within 8 or so days I dropped about 3 mg. I was taking 14.25 at 10 pm and 2.5 mg 3:30 am, dont ask why, ... tried to get the morning dose down because I was so groggy.its just the way I ended up. April 29th I put all of it at 10 pm.(16.75mg) The heart palps are not quite as bad since then, I have other symptoms flaring now that I didnt have before last week emotional, rash, high anxiety (fear)... Stable to me means bearable also, and I am not there. right now high tension, foggy etc

dont want to up the dose. Do you think it is possible to stabilize here? Is it possible to develop tolerance from here and how long would that take? (who knows???prob. no one). In other words you say not to cut again until you feel stable. what if that doesnt happen..?

I want to stay here at least 10 days from April 29th..and see how I am doing, am non functional mostly right now. Except, weird, but I can type and spell.... :) I really dont want to up dosage... really afraid that might not even work. Because of all the whacking around on the dosage I think I really screwed up and afraid to up dose. Yes I think I may have a sensitive system...but that could be my benzo fearful brain saying that. I cant trust anything I think anymore. I was on klonopin from Aug -dec 2006, it quit working, dr gav me xanax and I developed what I found out was interdose w/d during Feb. and March 2007,. dr said get off of it and I did... c/t stupid stupid dr. this all happened so quick that I just havent accepted it all, am trying to learn. I have a bachelors degree in health education!! this shouldnt have happened. Im on disability right now. Dr. might consider a liquid valium,

Thanks for your input. I dont know what I am going to do....

 

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[42...]

Hi Sealynn,

 

A lot of this is probably coming from the Xanax withdrawal and the large cut combined.  There is probably nothing really you can do about it now, other than just holding on.  As Therese says you could go up to 18mg, although this may or may not not alleviate the symptoms.  In all likelyhood it probably would help a bit, although nothing is certain in this game. With some, no matter how much they updose, the symptoms are not abated.

I agree with Therese not to cut until you are more stable, (this will happen at some stage, you dont need to be frightened that it wont.) Tolerance develops over weeks at one dose, so you dont need to be concerned about develping tolerance to this dose for a while. Hopefully your symptoms will subside enough to cut again within the next 3 weeks, or even less. As I said nothing is certain in all this Sealynn, but all this is doable, dont be to frightened.  It is good that you could get some liquid valium if you need it.  You have a doc that is helping you, which helps no end.... :thumbsup:

 

Vicky   :)

 

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If anyone is there to talk, would appreciate it. having bad time, so tolerance cannot be built up yet? you say 3 weeks? having bad "s" thoughts that Icant get thru this. Dont want to tell anyone or they will put me in the hospital.
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If anyone is there to talk, would appreciate it. having bad time, so tolerance cannot be built up yet? you say 3 weeks? having bad "s" thoughts that Icant get thru this. Dont want to tell anyone or they will put me in the hospital.

 

Sealynn,

 

Hang in there.  You have it within you to do this.  The stength inside of you that you have used so far will get you through the tough times.  It will get better.  I've been there but I hung in there and things did get a lot better.  You are in a marathon and no matter how hard it gets, you have to keep going. It will be worth it and you will make it. Look for your inner strength, it's in there....

 

Elwood

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Ashton says tolerance can build up in 2 weeks? or does anyone know... All I know is that I am not cutting right now.. heart racing, no sleeep, other symptoms...and all emotional depressing ones kicked in last night.

Sometimes like last night, I dont think I will get "stabilized". I have heard some people never do.... whaat are your experiences, anyone..?

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Yes, we can become tolerant of benzos hypnotic effects in two weeks.

 

Generally, when we write of 'getting stabilised' before tapering (or starting our taper), we are talking about taking a regular dose at regular intervals. Tapering off without first having some set routine is likely to be unsuccessful.

 

If we are getting no relief from our benzos as a result of becoming tolerant to them, we could increase the dose and stand a reasonable change of feeling better (until we become tolerant of the new dose, that is). However, if we then start to withdraw from this higher dose, we still have to tapering down throughthe dose to which are tolerant - there is no war around this. All we managed to achieve is that we now have to quit from a higher dose.

 

On the plus side, many report improvements as their dose lowers. Just because we have become tolerant of our benzos, it does not necessarily mean that the whole of the taper is very unpleasant. ;)

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Sealynn,

 

I think right now, the best thing you can do is just wait until your symptoms calm down somewhat. I know one member on this forum who started his taper too quickly and got hit hard at about a month in. He had to sit at his dose for six weeks before he could continue. But he did stabilize. So I would not worry about becoming tolerant of your dose right now. You cut quite a bit of benzo, and it's going to take time for your body to compensate for that.

 

Yes, many of us here are famliar with the "s" thoughts...that's part of w/d, and it will pass, just like the other symptoms. I know it's still frightening, but I just want you to know that other people have been there and did make it through.

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Ashton says tolerance can build up in 2 weeks? or does anyone know... All I know is that I am not cutting right now.. heart racing, no sleeep, other symptoms...and all emotional depressing ones kicked in last night.

Sometimes like last night, I dont think I will get "stabilized". I have heard some people never do.... whaat are your experiences, anyone..?

 

Hey Sealynn,

 

You will get better.  You will stabilize.  None of this is permanent damage, it's ALL temporary.  I was screwed up pretty good in the beginning but doing much better now.  I used to go around thinking "I'm not going to make it" and at some point that changed to "I AM going to make it".  Don't worry about not stabilizing, your body pretty much HAS to return to normal at some point. 

 

Hang in there,

Elwood

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Have decided to stay at my 16.75 mg /day valium,

I asked about being "stable" before starting to taper.. your comment (Colin?) was to be on a regular schedule, does being stable also have to do with how you feel,, like symptoms being bearable before moving on?

Also, how much would I start my taper at?  how many mg to reduce and how often? I have read Ashton, but the schedules different than what I take and my mental problem solving skills are really bad right now. 

thank you

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[42...]

Sealynn,

 

The general goal of tapering is to cut by about 10% of your dose every 1 or 2 weeks depending on the individual.

So I would be looking at tapering down by 1.5mg initially to see how that went.  Some can do more, some less, it is up to you to find your rate of tapering.

Yes cutting occurs when the symptoms are bearable, they dont usually go away, although sometimes they do.  I used to cut about once a week initially when I was at 15mg.  By day 5 I usually felt a lift in my symptoms, had a 2 day 'respite' before I cut again.  This varies though, not every cut can be the same, some are better than others, and some cuts you may not feel a difference at all. As your tapering gets down, the rate slows up if you are keeping to the 10% rule, some find they have to go even slower than that. This is just an approximation, there are no hard and fast rules.  As you taper you will get used to what your body wants to do, and how to pick up the signals.  Our bodies are wonderful messengers of our internal environment, it knows what to do and how to do, all you need do is just listen to it, and you cant go wrong.  Dont worry about those unpleasent thoughts either, I had them and they frightened the life out of me.  I still get them at times, but I know now that they cant hurt me, they are just thoughts and they fade away when you understand that.

 

Vicky  :)

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thank you for quick answer Vicky

I mayl stay here for 5-7 days 16.75 mg. then try a 1 mg cut. scares the you know what outof me, after I had tapered too much in the beginning......I dont expect to be s/x free, but I need to feel a little respite from heart racing, jittry, insomnia, need some kind of window.... before Imove on? is that what you are talking about? about being "stable"?

thank you,

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Yes, if you are feeling overwhelmed by your symptoms, I would not call that stable. When you feel that things have reached a more tolerable level, then you can move on. In general, we recommend cutting 10% every two weeks. You cut over 3 mg in one week, which would be roughly equivalent to two cuts--so it may take you a while to stabilize.
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I know I have a lot of questions...

just curious.. is there anyone who does like .25 mg cuts every 3,5 or 7 days? just wondereing if titration is good because it is done a little every day, then at higher dosages, why wouldnt it be better to go to lower cuts but more often...? I am not trying to avoid all pain in w/d. I just have these questions come up in my mind and figure I might as well ask them...

Is it ok to take tylenol while in this stage of tapering? only 1/2 of one once in a while? any one have bad effects from tylenol?

I suppose I will have more questions... I appreciate your time and help....

 

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Hi Sealynn,

 

When I talk of 'getting stable before tapering', I usually mean a regular dose taken at regular intervals. However, feeling stable within ourselves is very important too, and I guess I usually refer to this as 'feeling reasonably OK'. Most of us never feel completely OK during our taper, and a few seem to feel rough no matter how long they stick to their dose before tapering. However, even these people often feel relief as their dose slowly drops, and they suffer from less fogging.

 

You are absolutely correct in your assessment about making small frequent cuts being better than larger less frequent cuts - this is why some use titration. When we take quite a number of tablets per day, we can usually manage small cuts by splitting our pills - titration might be more useful later when you reach a lower dose (less pills). We can help you with your cuts, whether you are splitting pills or titrating your benzos. ;)

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GM Colin,

thanks for your reply. Soooo,, it IS possible to do more frequent cuts at a faster rate.Have may people on this site done this from my dosage? ? (16.75MG) and did it make any difference in their symptoms?

I think because I screwed up my cut by going so fast in a week, that I have sensitized EVERYTHING. I felt a little better last night for about 2 hrs. does this mean I am starting to stabilize? Have same ole symptoms this morning, with heart racing, jittery, overly sedated at the same time as being unable to manage adrenaline pounding.

 

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Hi,

 

What I mean is, we could make smaller more frequent cuts; or we could make larger less frequent cuts. The overall taper rate may be similar though. However, since we should expect an easier time with the smaller more frequent cuts, we may be able to manage a faster overall taper rate with the smaller cuts - but not necessarily. How ever large our cuts and taper rate, who should only contine with our taper when we feel reasonably recovered from the previous cut. If we are titrating and making cuts every day or two, then we should monitoring or overall progress, and still be willing to take break from further cuts if we feel that they are combining to a rate that is tough for us. You probably did taper too fast before; you probably just need a little more time to recover from that.

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thanks for advice.

I think I am still recovering from too fast taper too. I am still overwhelmed by the pounding heart, tension, and fatigue... etc... etc...I need to be patient for a few more days. even tho I am totally miserable. And want this to subside a little.....poor body!!

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Regarding Tylenol, I know some people take it during their taper and don't have problems. One of our members takes Tylenol PM to sleep. Everyone is different with regard to supplements/OTC drugs during their taper. If you didn't feel worse after taking the Tylenol, I wouldn't worry about it.
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I had an hour and a half 8-9:30 last night where my heart wasnt racing or threatening to. I hope this means I am going to be able to stabilize. last mod said: "should only continue with our taper when we feel reasonably recovered from the previous cut." In your experiences, you said you always stabilize... from a cut..am just thinking these things over.

I am just gathering information, As I said I dont expect to be symptom free, just investigating..Have a few more days to settle down and stabilize I think before starting to taper.

. I Like the idea of listening to our bodies....

so, it is ok to take a short break during tapering if we are totally overwhelmed with symptoms?

Do you have members who have started around my level 16.75mg val. and tapered .5 every 7/10 /14 days?  Or just go for the 1 mg mark and see what happens.... thanks.

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Taking a break from further cuts when your taper is hitting hard is a very sensible thing to do. Sometimes our taper can suddenly become more difficult for no apparent reason. It is usually temporary, so take the brake and continue to taper when you feel more able. By doing this we should be able to avoid upping our dose, and that's a bad idea.

 

I'd recommend that you cut by very small amounts, and then you should be able to cut more frequently. The overall taper rate may be similar, but the more-frequent smaller-cuts approach is likely to be easier on you.

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Thank you for all your help.

I got a little relief for about 2 hrs this morning and it all came back. Here's hoping I am beginning to stabilize.

 

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