Re: Newbie/Shocked _SA

Hi Jana,Colin

Thank you for the warm welcome. 

I was diagnosed as Bipolar many years ago and went on a string of meds to find out which ones worked for me, I had try a myriad as there are a few other little conditions joined to the Bipolar.

Benzo's were high on the list every time and my tolerance level went through the roof. I was sort of coping on the meds i was on until last year round about the time my brother got married, i got extremely anxious, so i called my psyc. and he prescribed the following :

100 x Valium 10mg tablets and 100 x Clobazam(Frisium)=Urbanol in SA.

Right, so i was already on both meds, a 6 month repeat prescription, he just topped them up to control the anxiety.My monthly prescription looked like this :

Wellbutrin    450mg in the morning

Topamax      300mg a day

Seroquel      75mg at night

Surmontil      400mg at night

Ativan          1mg  as per rquest (usually 30 tablets a month)

Klonopin      2mg as per request (as needed for anxiety)

Etomine        40mg (usually 10 pills a month)

Clobazam      30mg  a day

Valium          30mg  a day

So with the added 100 valium and 100 clobazam i was on very high doses and my body was (is) very tolerant. About 4 weeks ago my psyc. wanted me in hospital to get me off the high doses which he had put me on early last year. i went and in a week he took away the clobazam altogether and minimised the valium down to 30mg a day(1 x 10mg morning, noon and night). He has stopped all medication that is per request and any med that is habit forming.

I would really like to know if the way i am feeling is due to the reduction of the medication so abruptly. I am suffering from most of the c/t feelings on you list and more - is this normal?- do you have some sort of idea when it passes? I really feel like i am going mad and i am still on valium. It's frightening.

In the last 18 years i have been given many mental illness lables and for each one benzo's were the first med dished out. I cannot remember what i took when, I cannot establish a timeline of my for those years, it's all a bit blurred.

No, i haven't read Ashton and am ashamed to admit that i never questioned my psyc. I just swallowed what he prescribed and willed it to work not knowing the damage it was doing.

I am at a loss as to what i should do- do i get through this first and then tackle the valium and taper when i feel better or taper now.

I just don't know what to do!!!!

Hi Shocked.

For how long were you taking the Valium, Clobazam, Klonopin and Ativan? Am I correct in understanding that you were taking all of these at the same time? If so, that's a new record to me. I have rarely come across people taming three benzos, but never more. There is probably no justifiable reason for being prescribed more then one one benzo - four is ridiculous.

Clobazam is a weak benzo, 30mg probably equivalent to about 15mg of Valium. 2mg of Klonopin is probably equivalent to about 5-10mg Valium. 1mg of Ativan is probably equivalent to about 5-10mg Valium. And then there is the 30mg of Valium. Altogether, that's equivalent to about 55-65mg Valium, a very hefty dose. For those who use Ashtons equivalents, my figures are not at odds with those figures - I'm talking about therapeutic dosages, and not an equivalent for the purposes of substitution - that would be a higher equivalent.

From what you have described, this sound like typical benzo withdrawal symptoms. We tend to to call these kind of taper inhumane around here. I know that there are a lot of horror stories about rapid withdrawals, but some, maybe many, can withdraw rapidly from benzos without too many problems. I guess you are in a wait and see situation. If things become intolerable, and you find a doctor that is willing to to reinstate you with benzo, I'd recommend Valium, as it is the easiest with which to manage a controlled withdrawal. Also, you will almost certainly not need 55-65mg I was talking about, as you will have already gone through some adjustment. You should take the minimum for you feel reasonable OK - you are not looking to feel 100%, that's just not possible, as taking these drugs put us all in an altered state. I guess you are in a wait-and-see situation right now though.

Hi Shocked,

Don't feel embarrassed. I think that I am very drug cautious, but I , too, was eventually saturated with drugs. This was two A/D's at max doses, ADD medication, and benzos, sometimes two. I, too, was a  confused wreck. It was clear that the doctor was going to push more and more of the chemical straight jackets until I would have no chance of returning to Earth. I did return. I am sure that you can  too.

We do benzos here, but as you'd expect, the other psyche meds are common. Just for our purposes, forgetting the labels and addressing the symptoms will be more useful.

Now you know that your symptoms may once have had another cause, but the drugs touted as treatment can cause the same symptoms. You also know that no doctor is going to help you with this mess. You are your only help. People who have been there can share experiences and guide you. You always make the decisions.

That's one long list of meds. I don't know which are having additive properties, which cause altered amounts of the others, which can be discontinued, now, and which are actually useful. I'd tend to keep the antiseizure drug until your benzos are gone. It can do more than just avoid seizures.

Ideally, you would use just an adequate amount of benzo plus the antiseizure drug. However, I don't suggest just stopping things that your body is used to.  This may be more clear later. We can say though that the drugs don't cure the condition. They mask it and create their own conditions.

It's good to have a doctor who will agree that you need to taper benzos. The trouble arrives when a doctor expects you to drop a benzo amount not in keeping with your body's ability to repair and do it's usual job.

If you tolerate Valium, you're already off to a start. If you're willing to titrate, I can help. If you need one of the other methods, Colin  and Jan can help.

For inspiration, look at Patrick. He once was on 25.0mg Xanax per day. He did this thing alone. He's here to offer help.

I  may not be back here tonight. I'll start wading through your med list tomorrow. You may need to consult a pharmacist later just for information that isn't available on the internet. Hang loose. There's help for this.

Jana

Thanks for the feedback Jana and Colin

I am confusing myself terribly here, yourselves and whoever reads this too, so i got what prescriptions i could find spoke to my mother (who clearly knows my recent history) and was horrified at the dosages of benzo's i was taking.

I remember asking for more benzo's as my body was so used to them over the 18 year period (large doses) and i remember that i did not take them as prescribed...So starting about Feb. 2006 i was already on 60mg of Valium  a day and 60mg of clobazam a day.

I know this sounds like it should knock a horse out but i remember taking a blister pack of 10 Valium at once, there are 10 in a blister pack here.I took them when i felt bad.

The A/D have fluctuated over the years and i have done little research on them. I will take your advice and get myself educated.

And yes i have been on 4 benzo's at certain stages depending on what situation i had to confront-my psyc. just put me on them to "calm me down" for a while. they came as per request.

What i want to know is am i feeling this horrid way because he took me off all the benzo's within a week?

Save the 30mg of Valium that I am still on.

While in hospital for that week he stopped the clobazam,klonopin,ativan and etomine + the ones i can't remember even if they were for a few weeks.

That is my benzo history for more than a year, i try and get the fragments of the past 18 years but just can't put things in perspective.

When do these awful feelings go away? How long do you think I should wait before I tackle the Valium?

I hope this clears up all the tangle i have been getting my benzo history in.

As I said before I am currently on 30mg of Valium.

Dena

Hi again,

I have been reading some of the posts and i can't believe how low the dosage of benzo's are, i had to check my box of valium to make sure i was taking 30mg a day!

And yes i am, I am also familiar with the clobazam I was taking...on the box clearly stated 10mg, and i was taking 6 a day-which was abruptly stopped just over 4 weeks ago.

I can only hope you take this seriously.

Dena

Hi Dena,

Your history is fantastic, and I believe every bit of it. You may have to take responsibility for the expreme and escalated doses over the years, but your doctor is responsible for  kicking you in the head with that one week drastic reduction of multiple meds. These are to be discontinued one by one. This is because they can alter the function of the other meds.

This isn't a failing of medicine in only your country. This misguided wholesale treatment is often seen the world over.  There's a great variation in patients' response so not everyone is knocked to the ground. This just confuses the doctors. It's clear that you weren't one of the more lucky ones. However, you lived through it, and you can make yourself well. Just don't make any big plans for a while . This will take some physical adjustment and some time.

Your best ally now is your belief in your body's ability to correct this 18 year attack culminating in that hospital stay.

You said:

"What i want to know is am i feeling this horrid way because he took me off all the benzo's within a week?" YES!, and you can gradually fix this.

We usually stabilize on a benzo and then taper. You may need more time for this step. Your own body will give you the cue. Start a journal and write dosages and symptoms a few times a day. This will tell you where you're going and also be a source of information for your doctor.

Is it correct to say that you are using 30.0mg of  Valium per day now and nothing else?  Do you take this once a day or in divided doses?  You may need a few weeks  for your body to get used to the new chemical enviornment. Be patient.

You could benefit from some conservative nutritional support. I'll post some of this on an other thread. Avoid OTC meds if possible,  and caffeine. Get many small hits of cpmplete protein a day. I am guessing that the idea makes you sick. Protein is still the goal. Do what you can. 

Jana

Hi Jana

thank you for the quick response.

Yes you are correct i am on Valium 30mg a day.

I divide it up by halving the tablets into 5mg each which i take as needed, no special time allocated. I am actually scared to take the whole 10mg at once because it means i only have 2 pills left for the day. Addicted!

The thought of any protien makes me very very nausea's, i cant even cook it, smell it let alone eat it! I am seeing things that are not there or rather things that remind me of something, such as chicken breast with chilli sauce, looks like flesh cut open in blood! I do feel like i am going crazy.

I am still on my A/D : Wellbutrin > 450mg in the morning

                            Topamax  >  300mg a day

                            Seroquel  >  75mg at night

                              Surmontil >  200mg at night

Apart from feeling like a soda can thats being crushed, i am really dissapointed in my psychiatrist, he is a professor, how could he do this and the when the pharmacy starts asking questions its time to detox me in a week! Where has my life gone?

Looking ahead to a better life is a comfort.

I am very scared to attempt this as these drugs are all i have known for a very long time, they have practically run my days.

Does nutrition play such a big part in w/d?

Why no caffine?

Why protein?

When do i feel better? (I know it's a hard one to answer)

Dena

Hi Dena,

It would be better if you weren't on Seroquel and Wellbrutin, but  it can't be changed right now. The Topomax actually may be doing some good. Your hallucinations could be worse without it. It stabilizes electrical activity in your brain, and right now that's a problem. It happens in benzo W/D.

It appears that your doctor did that cruel detox because a pharmacist questioned his prescriptions. Doctors fear the disapproval of other doctors. He was likely protecting himself and not you.

A schedule that you stick to will serve you better. Take your 30.0mg Valium in evenly divided doses at evenly spaced intervals. This will produce more even levels of benzo in your body, a prerequisite for tapering. You don't want any big or sudden changes in the amount in your body at any one time. Just for a start, 5.0mg every six hours isn't too extreme. You can adjust this later. This forbids taking more at any time even if it all adds up to 30.0mg in a day.

The  inability to eat is from the adrenalin circulating. It isn't being managed by your GABA. It used to be managed by your GABA helped by a benzo,but no more. It's time to encourage your body to gradually do the job alone.

I know that you feel crazy. Benzo W/D does that. Hallucinations happen. I heard loud crashes in another room. My ears weren't hearing it. My brain heard it. It was perceived as a real noise. I knew that this was my brain because my dogs didn't bark.

You've had some serious chemical attacks. You can recover. You must take charge though. A doctor doesn't know what you know. You must resolve to be disciplined now.

The pattern of using a drug to manage life is something that I can't offer much help with. I can make suggestions. Keepng a list of ways to manage stress can help. The breathing exercises don't do a thing after the stress starts. So making a habit of doing them regularly and separately from the stress event is a good idea.

If you remember that the drugs harm as they seem to help, you may

see drug use differently. I saw them as a poison that I still had to take but in decreasing amounts. We still make repairs as we taper. We don't just walk back into the world at day zero benzo and have to suddenly learn to cope. It happens as we taper.

Caffeine encourages more adrenal output, the something that is already harming you.

Without the building blocks, your GABA and GABA receptors won't be able to rebuild themselves. The main aminos that are made into GABA are Glutathione, Glycine, and Cysteine. You need a lot of vitamin C and B's to make the cysteine safe. So this is the reason for protein.

When will you begin to feel better is a different question from when will you be well. You can start the process by making your Valium levels more even. You can build your GABA supply by using protein. It's a gradual thing. There's no pill that will change this state of things instantly. Healing is more  the result of an improved way of life.

If you can swallow omega 3 fatty acids plus some vitamin E, you will  do a bit better. Your brain uses this. I use whey protein powder. It's fairly concentrated. You don't have to eat a lot of something to get 18.0mg of protein. Raw greens help too. They can counter the acidity that makes us feel so yucky.

You can start the process right now. I don't know when you'll feel it.

When your condition is not often changing, you're ready to taper. You have some choices of methods. Right now, just take care of your self and even out your benzo levels.

I suspect that the pills aren't helping you to cope with life anywhere near as much as you think. At some point, their benefits fall way behind their harm.

Jana

Just posting a correction - Jana's figures may have confused you. 5mg every six hours would be 20mg/day. Assuming that you sleep for about 9 hours, splitting your daily dose into six 5mg doses, would look something like this: 7am; 10am; 1pm; 4pm; 7pm; 10pm. Obviously, adjust to suit your own lifestyle.

Actually, you should not need to take Valium more than three times a day, but since you feel nervous about taking 10mg at a time, then do split them into 5mg doses. Obviously you will not be taking Valium through the night, but because of Valium's relatively long half-life, you should not notice any significant change by the morning. If you feel more confident, and for simplicity's sake, just take three doses per day - 10mg every 8 hours.

Hey,

If that works for you do it. It didn't work for me when I used Valium. I needed many doses. Those of us who don't sleep for long will have no trouble with multiple doses. If you do sleep, Colin's suggestion is just the ticket.

Jana

Hi Jana, Colin

Jana thanks for making things a bit more easier to understand,i have no idea what benzo's have/are doing to my brain at all. I think a little research is in order there.

I am glad to hear that "feeling like im going crazy" is a normal thing and it's just not me.

Even with the 30mg of Valium i am on I too hear things, see things, i am very thirsty, i cant eat anything but toast, i am itchy all over, i am so jumpy, everything is brighter,louder. And to tell you the truth I don't sleep very well because of silly phobias that are suddenly the focus of my bedtime,I am afraid of the dark and i am a 37 year old woman!!! The list goes on and on.

i feel like the valium is the glue that is just holding me together and i know that it has a terrible grip on me, something that needs to be addressed.

Jana is cheese ok for the protien bit?

What effect is valium having on the other meds? My problem is WHY should there be so many, don't they interact with each other perhaps causing a problem where there is none.

A psyc. many years ago put me on sodium valproate and thats all. Was just fine.

I think i need a new doctor.

Is that 18mg of protien a day?

I have heard that calcium cannot be absorbed into your system totally as it needs magnesium to do the job efficiently. Is that the truth?

Even my teeth hurt-so sugar sensitive now......am i going to go through this again when i stop the Valium?

Dena

Dena,

Even with the hallucinations, auditory, visual and others, you are showing more insight that you know! Inside you, you do  understand some of what's happening to you. The emotional aspects are caused by the physical upset. They fade as the benzos leave. It's a process. It doesn't happen suddenly.

The 18 grams of protein that I referred to are in one serving of whey powder. You need a lot of water plus protein. the 18 grams are just a start. Cheese sounds right as long as you tolerate it.

Your idea about drugs interacting to produce another set of symptoms may be exactly correct! There's the usual effect of a drug and then the real effect of that drug in YOUR body.

Some drugs interact. Some have additive effects. Some  affect the enzymes that determine how much drug stays around and for how long. I wouldn't change anything right now. That could upset your benzo levels and increase symptoms.

A different doctor sounds good. The old one will be interested in defending what he has done to you and not in correcting it. I found that a GP was usually more ready to think and less likely to react to key words.

Still, if you have a benzo supply, you can stabilize yourself and then begin a conservative taper. You could even use the bad doctor as your supplier as you taper. He  probably won't like the idea of your being drug free though. You have to do that part without his help.

The world that you're in  now can be terrifying, but it isn't permanent. You leave that world a step at a time. You manage symptoms in non-benzo ways while tapering the benzo. The drug that once managed symptoms is now causing them.

Jana

Hi Jana

I am not quite stable at the moment,but am very willing to start tapering (titration?) once i am in a constant routine. I can use my "bad" doctor for the supply of valium so that wont be a problem.

I'd like to know when i start my tapering (or titration?) how long would it  take to be benzo free. I ideally want it to be the slowest thing out so my body is totally unaware of the subtle changes.

Im in a bit of a pickle with all the other meds too are,nt I?

Anyway i am going to try to even out this week, I can't always get online as i live in a farming community and the lines go down all the time. I also have to see if i can get my hand on the added vitimens needed.Oh and my spelling hase gone to hell.

I am having serious memory problems,i think yesterday is today and so on which leads to terrible confusion.

Does a person need bedrest or do you keep as busy as you can?

Thank you for the valuble information you have given me, I too now see what i am putting in my body is more harmfull than healing.

Thanks a million

Dena

Hi Dena,

Consistency and a regulated life are necessary. Mild exercises and activity have some good effects. A lot of rest is still part of the plan. Good nutrition and minimum stress will support your healing.

I don't know exactly why the ability to spell goes. I still think that correctly spelled words look incorrect. I can reverse up to four letters in a word too. It takes time to relearn. This doesn't seem to be a permanent problem.

The many other drugs  can't be changed right now. You need to get your drug intake down to a set routine and stick to that. The a taper will be possible.

The time this takes is a guess right now. Since the time won't be short, finding a taper plan that makes you feel as good as possible is wise. A liquid  titration can be done with such small changes in benzo levels that your body can keep up with the benzo loss.

You can get the measuring syringe and wait for stability. If your doctor will prescribe the liquid form of Valium, this is easier. If not, you can make your own. As long as you have a Valium supply, a syringe, and a ml measuring cup, no one can withold a taper. It's in your control.

Jana

Hi Jana

I can get the valium in tablet form, the pharmacy can give it to me in any dose it is made in.I am very interested in the titration method. I feel that would be the best for me.

In the meantime i hear you about getting stable, routine is one of the things i battle with and that applies to my meds as well. I tend to shuffle them around to fit into where i am going. So i will persevere in correcting that.And fall into a regular pace of life.

I will get the measuring syringe and the ml cup within the next few days so it will be a reminder of the life i am going to get back and enjoy.

On a darker side, i really feel like crap today, so very itchy,thirsty,angry...and on..

So a change is needed and has been for plus minus 18 years.

Thanks for your imput and help Jana

Dena

Hi Dena,

You're getting the plan going.  Just getting the two implements and the schedule can  make us feel better and hopeful and ready.

I don't think that I've often said aloud that using a regular schedule for all meds will support a withdrawal. I know, I like to do things impulsively. While doing a benzo withdrawal, I had to accept some selfimposed discipline. It's all worth the effort. We can maintain a schedule for food, meds, exercise, and work.  :'(  Sleep is often outside of that plan. We do what we can there.

Okay, you're off to a good start.

Jana

Hi Jana

That good start didn't quite start out good, in fact it never started. I went into hiding which is what i do when having to make major life changes.

It all seems so very easy, but when you are dependant on those valium to get you though the day, it gets very hard to confront.

I know that being on benzo's has wrecked my life, and logically I know what the RIGHT choice is, but when all is said and done. I AM TERRIFIED !!!!!

There i said it, terrified to face this situation head on.

Being on such medications for so long is there a longing for something thats missing in your life when you have gone right off these things? What do fill that gap with?

Taking 30mg of valium a day how does the first titration look? Why are people so negative about a person wanting to be benzo free? or a/d free? Do we just say "Yes" Dr, "No" Dr..and so forth, how do you know if you really need these things? The possible answer is to get off them and see how you behave? I have no clue. One thing i do know is I am in a spinning wheel and i am desperately trying to get off.

Dena

Hi Dena,

Change is difficult, but you have already started the process by acknowledging the problem and joining a support group! You can progress at your own rate - we will not be demanding that you start your taper - you will decode this when ready.

Titration could be the route for you. It will allow you tao make tiny adjustments to your dosage, where you might drop 1% (or less) of your dose at a time. Mostly people drop by this amount every one or two days, but you can do this more slowly, until your confidence is boosted. When you ready, and if you'd like to try this, let us know and we will work out schedule for you. Remember, you can freeze the taper at any stage you wish. It is not a race; it's about quitting at a rate, and in a manner, that you are comfortable with.

Hi Colin

Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I think I am going to just be myself from now,i have just given you superficial aspects to my life (not saying one should spill the whole lot!)

So these are my labels BIPOLAR (rapid cycling), AGORAPHOBIA, ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR, BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER. Thats my recent psychiatric report. Now which drug is curing what. My pdoc wants to up the dosage of seroquel to a much higher dose and im thinking why? am i frigging mad? ok so if i am all those labels the surely long long ago like 18 years ago they could have given my some kind of therapy. Damn as soon as my family gets wind of the labels they suddenly see all types of behaviour in me thats a load of crap. The more i talk to my pdoc the more he changes and adds to my meds first asking if i have been on them before, what a nut.the shitty thing about these drugs are the bodys need for them. it's not like quiting smoking 3days and youre done,just keep yourself busy!

Now my thyroid is leaning to the bad area wherever that is? and if so why not fix it before its IN the bad area, piling all these a/d on me.

Anyway, i am all for changing my life but i am an extreme agrophobe so i use the benzo's to cope with crowds, people, even a friend for tea. So when coming off, i can just pause to gauge how im doing when i go shopping with my dad on a sunday? See how the panic attacks go?

I dont drive, have never been married, never worked and so on as a direct result of benzo's and my phobia.

thinking about it, i have nothing to lose and perhaps everything to gain.

I have been in rehab 3 times for excessive use of benzo's and each time have relapsed (c/t withdrawls) that is primarily why i am so worried about going off so slowley.

i can sit here and complain but it's not helping, i can bitch and moan later

I am taking 30mg of valium and would love to start a titration from 8am to 10pm, lets get the party started!

Dena

Dena,

Those are important questions and  they are no many peoples' minds.

When I give an answer I'm speaking from my experience and from other peoples' reports. I give my reasoning for doing a thing this way, but you are the final judge.

The idea of need is commonly promoted by psychiatry. Is this drug found in a normally functioning body?  Can it be thought of as one of the components of a normal organism? Or is it a drug, an exogenously applied chemical designed to make the body do something that it won't normally do? This act is legitimate in an acute situation when the body is not working properly. It can restore order in a short term situation. It will destroy order if used for any longer than the limited crisis. It will permeate every area of the body and make real and abnormal changes.

So what was dependable for a crisis has become a poison when used any longer. The body acclimates and begins to function differently, abnormally. Is this really coping? Is this really causing an additional dysfunction that wasn't going to happen normally?

The "need" that was there for a hour or a day is no longer there. It its place is a need that the drug caused, a need for itself and not for any naturally occurring dysfunction. When does a usefull drug begin to poison normal function? The shift has no outward signs. Most of us take exactly as directed. One day, the scheduled dose is skipped. The result is often a message that the drug as caused a need for itself. So often that message is attributed to some fictional mental disorder and more drugs enter a queue.

Some of us are fortunate enough to see what has happened. Some of us are able to do what we must to free ourselves. Don't expect medical recognition. I just saw a medical opinion saying that the risks and trouble of tapering a patient are  too risky for the doctor. A continued prescription and slow physical deterioration  were chosen by a medical doctor who never discussed the decision with the patient. How many patients would accept this? It is a practice that favors a doctor at the expense of a life.

Are you depending on a benzo to cope with life, or are you depending on it to suppress the withdrawal of that drug? Is the benzo really doing what you think that it is doing for you?

You have to answer that withot the selfserving input of a medicaldoctor. Only you know what is really going on. The doctor knows only a drug profile and not what it's doing in your case.

You don't have to make any big steps to determine this. The cut amounts so often used as a standard don't have to be used. It's far more cautious and safe to make small changes and assess the damage. The symptoms that appear as a result of  decreasing a drug are not the revelation of some postulated underlying condition. These are the result of benzo caused neuroinhibitor destruction. You can heal this, but no medical treatment can.

A common medical response is to offer a reduction of 3.0mg in a 30.0mg daily prescription. The misery that follows will be attributed to you. It's not you. It's a too ambitious cut. Some sort of titration plan is your best bet when you are are fearfull of  beginning a taper.

I like starting a tiny cut daily and then adding or subtracting according to your response. Ultimately you find what you can handle and no more and no less. This isn't a one size fits all taper plan. It's a  figure it as you go thing.

This allows your body to adjust at a rate that it can do. Along the way, any fears or emotional adjustments take care of themselves. This isn't something that you just jump into one day and hope for the best.

The starting cut for Valium is 0.05mg perday. This is adjusted according to your response.

I doubt that Valium is helping to to cope at all. That probably ended many years ago. So rather than thinking of Valium as a coping aid, think of it as something that is making you unwell and that must be dropped slowly.

You won't get a taper plan and then be left with the results. You'll have help along the way. This is the way that I finally did it for myself.

Jana

Thank you for your insight Jana and quick response,

I am really interested in the titration method as it seems to read like a thing i can handle slowly, i can't do a rush taper because i have been through too many c/t and i don't wish them on my worse enemy.

Back when my pdoc took me off everything except this 30mg of Valium i suffered and still am, i am itchy, thirsty, confused, hear ringing in my ears. I mean so many years of the junk and he decides to cover his own ass not thinking about mine...I'm so angry.

I can't seem to get myself into a proper routine, is it mandatory that one has to be taking ones medications at the same times each day?

I can't remember years, i tried a time line of new years eve's..where i had been since 2000, and i couldn't remember from 2001 till 2006, some things i dint want to remember and something need to be remembered,like the following which may be of some help to who ever reads this. I took my medication as prescribed one evening and then went and painted the town red, i landed up in a coma in the trauma unit where they were going to put me on a ventilator, but once i had a tube down my throat and they were pumping an air sack i started breathing on my own.

The reason for this episode was that in taking my meds and benzo's (lexotan and ativan) and drinking my whole electrolyte balance in my entire body went crazy.

Warning to me (giant one) don't drink and take these meds, you may have just one that one more may put you where i was. Keeping a check on my electrolytes is a thing i do often because of the a/d. I hope this helps someone.

Jana, i am ready to start the titration method for coming off my Valium, i will use the milk. I cant get the liquid Valium because i don't want my pdoc to know what i am doing. i think the pharmacy will help with 5mg tablets, is that ok? how small a mg syringe and measuring cup?

Another thing, i ultimately would like to be drug free as i want to have children.

When is stable -stable enough?

Thanks again to you and Colin for helping me out.

Dena

Hi Dena,

Anger can drain us, but a little of it well placed  is a helpfull thing. It will motivate you to forget the "what-if's" and the undeserved disapproval of family and doctor. Inside you, you know the truth. It's time that you heard your own wise voice. You've been stuffed into a subordinate role long enough.

I understand the wisdom of doing this taper with no interference. If you announce that Dena isn't talking orders anymore, you'll have more opposition than you can handle. Now that your resolve is in high gear, let's get this going.

The syringe is a small thing that will measure an amount as small as 0.1ml. The measuring cup is any glass one that has mls marked on one side.  If you need divided doses, you need some little bottles to hold these amounts.

You also need a remote area of your refrigerator where your liquid won't get undesirable attention.      You don't want any busybody interfering with your efforts to be well and happy.

If you are currently using 30.0mg Valium per day, you may be able to make bigger daily cuts than the usual starting point of 0.05mg per day. On the other hand, I don't want to push you too far. So just as a start I suggest cutting 0.1mg total per day. In this strength, this will be 0.2ml less each day.

To make this measurable and to allow for smaller cuts as well, a strength liquid of 5.0mg in 10.0ml of whole milk would be good. However, I don't know how much filler is in your 5.0mg tablet. I used 2.0mg tablets.  The Valium seems to disintegrate into the milk in seconds. So put  5.0mg tablets into

twice that in mls of milk. Shake it well. This is a 1:2 strength Valium liquid.

Now write a column of numbers starting with 30.0mg. It will look like 29.9mg, 29.8mg,29.7mg 20.6 mg. Next to each of those numbers write the number of whole mls plus tenths of a ml that you will use.

You will use the whole numbers in tablets and the tenths in your liquid.  Write it down in a booklet that is small and easy to find.  (Don't split a tablet more than once to get parts of a mg.)

Just write and tell me that you understand this so far. Then I'll tell you how I made my daily supply and divided it into doses. It isn't complicated. It just might seem that way right now. You can practice by using water and an aspirin tablet. Then you can throw away any mistakes.

We can clear up any confusion right away. If you have interdose withdrawls, you just divide this same amount into more doses. This isn't likely to happen for a long time though.

This might appear to be a long taper. We can't have any idea of how long until we know how you react to the first cut. I have the feeling that you will be able to settle on much larger cuts for most of your taper. It's just best to do something smaller and then test a bigger cut in a few days,

Just write your schedule and the steps as you understand them. Then I'll write out the last little piece of this. That is: the amount in tablets and the amount in liquid.

You are going to feel better and better, and one day you will be well and no one there will know how you did it! 

Jana

Jana

Hi Dena,

Anger can drain us, but a little of it well placed  is a helpfull thing. It will motivate you to forget the "what-if's" and the undeserved disapproval of family and doctor. Inside you, you know the truth. It's time that you heard your own wise voice. You've been stuffed into a subordinate role long enough.

 

I understand the wisdom of doing this taper with no interference. If you announce that Dena isn't talking orders anymore, you'll have more opposition than you can handle. Now that your resolve is in high gear, let's get this going.

 

The syringe is a small thing that will measure an amount as small as 0.1ml. The measuring cup is any glass one that has mls marked on one side.  If you need divided doses, you need some little bottles to hold these amounts.

 

You also need a remote area of your refrigerator where your liquid won't get undesirable attention.      You don't want any busybody interfering with your efforts to be well and happy.

 

If you are currently using 30.0mg Valium per day, you may be able to make bigger daily cuts than the usual starting point of 0.05mg per day. On the other hand, I don't want to push you too far. So just as a start I suggest cutting 0.1mg total per day. In this strength, this will be 0.2ml less each day.

 

To make this measurable and to allow for smaller cuts as well, a strength liquid of 5.0mg in 10.0ml of whole milk would be good. However, I don't know how much filler is in your 5.0mg tablet. I used 2.0mg tablets.  The Valium seems to disintegrate into the milk in seconds. So put  5.0mg tablets into

twice that in mls of milk. Shake it well. This is a 1:2 strength Valium liquid.

 

Now write a column of numbers starting with 30.0mg. It will look like 29.9mg, 29.8mg,29.7mg 20.6 mg. Next to each of those numbers write the number of whole mls plus tenths of a ml that you will use.

 

You will use the whole numbers in tablets and the tenths in your liquid.  Write it down in a booklet that is small and easy to find.  (Don't split a tablet more than once to get parts of a mg.)

 

Just write and tell me that you understand this so far. Then I'll tell you how I made my daily supply and divided it into doses. It isn't complicated. It just might seem that way right now. You can practice by using water and an aspirin tablet. Then you can throw away any mistakes.

 

We can clear up any confusion right away. If you have interdose withdrawls, you just divide this same amount into more doses. This isn't likely to happen for a long time though.

 

This might appear to be a long taper. We can't have any idea of how long until we know how you react to the first cut. I have the feeling that you will be able to settle on much larger cuts for most of your taper. It's just best to do something smaller and then test a bigger cut in a few days,

 

Just write your schedule and the steps as you understand them. Then I'll write out the last little piece of this. That is: the amount in tablets and the amount in liquid.

 

You are going to feel better and better, and one day you will be well and no one there will know how you did it!   

Jana

Jana

 

 

 

 

Hi there Jana and all,

Sorry about your entire letter being quoted, i honestly do not know how to use the quote thingie.

Right,so I have everything syringe, measuring cup, bottles for storage, tablets. And i have no idea what you are talking about!

I get the 5mg valium into 20ml milk (the best i can do here is 2% fat milk)...Is that right?

I get the column of 30ml, 29.9ml, 29.8ml and so on. but i am lost with the other 2 columns (I failed terribly at math)

I just can't get it

Is it 3 columns? one for tablet decrease, one for number of whole mls? and one for tenths of the ml's i use?

or is it whole numbers ml in tablets and tenths in liquid..if so i am totally clueless.

Please can you put it in a table form for me, just a few lines.

My pdoc has increased my seroquel to 175mg and i am a bit hesitant to take it, the funny thing is a few years ago he said to me concerning benzo's i was pharmacologically exhausted had taken so many and very high doses.Now he wants to exhaust me with a/d's or class me again.

Today I had no sense of time or dates and the funny thing is i dont feel i know what i look like, still itchy and thirsty for water and i tried to listen to some music but that was a bit much, so was food, but i have a whey based protien shake and i eat bland veggies.

I tend to disagree that valium only relaxes the muscles as i am having to  put post its all around the house to remind me what to do..even to brush my teeth. Perhaps thats long term damage of use and abuse.

I have a dentist apppointment next week that i will not miss because he refuses to see you if you cancel more than twice and he is highly skilled, usually im on a whole blisterpack of valium or bromazepam (my mothers) and was 20 cobazam in one go...dont have that anymore so i have to be honest in saying i am tempted to take extra tablets.

But on the other hand a dental appointment doesnt last forever, half and hour 45mins max. so realistically and rationally it's do-able. In benzo world its different.

Anyway im ratteling on.

Hope we can get going soon on this Jana I am quite excited

Dena

Hi Dena,

I glad to see that you are ready and enthousiastic to move forward.

I'll leave the figures to Jana, as she has this down pat.