Hey

Hi everyone,

I'm tapering off klonopin, so I've been looking around.  I've been taking 1 mg for over a year.  I cut .125 mg a week ago wed., and another .125 yesterday.  I know that's a little fast, but I feel ok so far (some symptoms, natch.  But I was feeling really good the last few days, so I decided to go for it.) 

I think I'll slow it down from here.  That water titration thing sounds interesting.  And it's all spelled out for me, since someone here is doing the same thing from the same dose!  I even found a compounding pharmacist in my area that will put it in liquid form for me, at any ratio I want, for 20 bucks(of course my doctor has to call him).So I think I'll do that rather than mess around myself.

Thanks for that idea and many other helpful suggestions I've read here. 

Best of luck to you all,

Alia

Welcome Alia,

And welcome to the spontaneously generated "Klonopin Klub". It just started gathering members after Nevermore began her big journey. The U.S. doctors seem to be in love with this benzo.

I also agree that compounding your liquid is the best way to do it, but so many people are left on their own. They must use what they have.

I suggested a 1 to 20 strength only because a 0.0025mg cut can be measured in 0.1ml that way. This is the standard first Valium titration cut translated into Klonopin.

Did you ask about getting the syringe? I just asked the pharmacist, and he pulled one out of a drawer.  This was Walgreens where I was already buying my prescription Valium liquid.

I hope that you'll post often and give us your own perspective.

Jana

Hi Jana,

Yeah, that's funny, I gathered they don't prescribe it much in Britain.  Quite a while ago I mentioned to my doctor that I might want to switch to valium when I tapered off (I have to admit I had some idea of what I was getting into.  I vowed I wouldn't use it for more than a month, but here I am).  She said "oh no, I would never prescribe that to you".  So I guess they think it's safer. 

I will definitely keep y'all posted.  Was it you that came up with the water titration for k thing?  I notice you really have it down, and help people a lot with the math, etc.  It's good of you.  I was pleased to see such a simple solution, I was concerned about the under .25 cuts.  And the daily cuts make a lot of sense.

Anyway, thanks!  I will get back to you.  You're very kind.

Alia

Hi Alia,

Welcome to BenzoBuddies.

I'm from the UK and was prescribed Klonopin, but for a neurological condition. Yes, the US does seem to be falling in love with Klonopin, and there is even a clinic (whose name escapes me for the moment) that does substitute benzos for Klonopin as standard. There is no good reason for doctors thinking that Valium is worse - it is not. In fact, it is less problematic than some of the newer, safer, benzos or z-drugs (they act similarly to benzos). Doctors are so down about Valium for historical reasons. Valium was one of the early benzos, and then it became hated as became apparent benzos cause real problems. For some reason, this was attached strongly to Valium, but not the other benzos - it's just plain wrong. Valium does offer advantages over the benzos in managing a withdrawal, simply because it is the only benzo with a long half-life that also comes in relatively low-potency doses.

Anyway, yes, I think it would be sensible to slow down some from here-on-in. Titration can make this far easier to manage.

Hi Alia,

I didn't invent titration.    It's been around for a while of course.  I just started using homogenized milk because the equipment list and directions for using water left too much room for error. I wasn't sure that the fat globules in the milk would dissolve the benzo, but I tried it on myself,and it worked better than I had hoped.

I suspect that using a fat with the benzo causes the benzo to be assimilated more consistently. I used Valium. Then I found that benzos are generally soluble in fat and alcohol, so it wasn't too far out to use this for klonopin.

The simpler the solution the better especially when our minds are fragmented and our hands shake.

There's an automatic and thoughtless reaction to the V word. Valium does have advantages over other benzos, but some people just don' t tolerate it.

Doctors have some sort of emotional need  to use the newest of everything. 

Jana

Hi Colin and Jana,

Sorry I didn't get back sooner.  When I began my taper I became obsessed with benzo info and started looking at a lot of boards.  It hit me that I had gathered what info I needed for the time, and that it was better for my health to take a break from reading, take care of myself, and try to go with the flow without anticipating problems ("borrowing trouble", as mom would say)....

That said, I do know that there will be inherent withdrawal symtoms, which I will try to manage in various ways.  #1, I'm trying to get off as quickly as possible, without protracting the problem by doing it too quick.  That's the trick, right?

I hear ya about the valium, Colin.  I don't want to do the cross over, though.  I like this site because you all seem open to various ways and individual circumstances.

Ok, here's where I am.  I started at 1 mg. (.5 2x daily).  I cut the morning dose  by 1/4 around March 22.  I held that for 9 days, then I cut a quarter off the evening dose.  That put me at .75, which I held until last night.  So far the symptoms have been mostly apathy, depression, anxiety, and some...Hmmm, idunno...robotic legs?  Lack of physical grace, let's say. lol.

These have all been fairly mild, intermingled with feeling fine, even better sometimes.  Symptoms seem to build and change after the cut, peaking and subsiding after 5th day or so. 

Last night I cut 1/8 of my evening dose.  I didn't sleep that great (it wasn't awful, but thakfully I have been sleeping fine until now).  Maybe I should switch the cut to the a.m., but I'm unsure. 

Ok, this is getting long.  I forgot to mention the slightly decreased concentration and focus effect.  (no, really, don't object, it's true.)

But where was I?  Oh yeah!  I'm taking .685 (or something) now.  I have a doctor's appointment in the a.m.  Should I start titrating after this, or get down to .5 first?  (Oh if one is faster AND easier that would be my choice!!!!)

I have a pharmacist that can make the liquid, what ratio should I get again?  1mg in 20 ml?

Thanks again, you've already been a big help!

A.

P.S.  Ok, Jana, you invented milk titration.  Very clever. 

Hi Colin and Jana,

 

Sorry I didn't get back sooner.   When I began my taper I became obsessed with benzo info and started looking at a lot of boards.  It hit me that I had gathered what info I needed for the time, and that it was better for my health to take a break from reading, take care of myself, and try to go with the flow without anticipating problems ("borrowing trouble", as mom would say)....

Hi Alia,

Good to see you back here.

Yes, reading all the scare stories can give us a skewed perspective. Undoubtedly benzos cause a lot of problems for a lot of people, but all those that quit with few problems are highly unlikely to write up the their experiences, and even if they do, they make less interesting reading. The truth is that whilst it is probable that most long-term users of benzos experience problems with quitting, the majority manage without too many problems, especially with support and methods that allow for a smooth transition off. You should have every expectation of being able to quit without too many problems if you follow a sensible plan, and are willing to be flexible with the withdrawal. It's all about listening to your body, and making adjustments as they are needed. We don't push tough schedules around here. At the same time though, if an individual feels that a rigid structure is the only way for them to quit, this is their choice too.

That said, I do know that there will be inherent withdrawal symptoms, which I will try to manage in various ways.  #1, I'm trying to get off as quickly as possible, without protracting the problem by doing it too quick.  That's the trick, right?

Yep, that's the trick. The problem with a rapid withdrawal is that we can be left feeling really quite ill at the end, and this can last for quite some time. We find that with a smooth withdrawal, part of the recovery takes place during the tepering process. This means that the overall recovery time may be no quicker with a rapid withdrawal. Indeed, there is anecdotal evidence that suggests that those who force their way through with a rapid taper take longer to recover in the longrun. Why this might be is open to speculation.

I hear ya about the valium, Colin.  I don't want to do the cross over, though.  I like this site because you all seem open to various ways and individual circumstances.

That's fine. It's not always easy to get a prescription for Valium anyway - especially in the States. Yes, we take the view that people usually end up being hooked on benzos because of a lack of information. We are about trying to give people an informed choice - usually what was lacking in the first place!

Ok, here's where I am.  I started at 1 mg. (.5 2x daily).  I cut the morning dose  by 1/4 around March 22.  I held that for 9 days, then I cut a quarter off the evening dose.  That put me at .75, which I held until last night.  So far the symptoms have been mostly apathy, depression, anxiety, and some...Hmmm, idunno...robotic legs?  Lack of physical grace, let's say. lol.

 

These have all been fairly mild, intermingled with feeling fine, even better sometimes.  Symptoms seem to build and change after the cut, peaking and subsiding after 5th day or so. 

 

Last night I cut 1/8 of my evening dose.  I didn't sleep that great (it wasn't awful, but thakfully I have been sleeping fine until now).  Maybe I should switch the cut to the a.m., but I'm unsure. 

 

Ok, this is getting long.  I forgot to mention the slightly decreased concentration and focus effect.  (no, really, don't object, it's true.)

It sounds as though the cuts are beginning to bite. I made a direct withdrawal from Clonazepem, so I understand how tricky it is with those tiny potent Clonazepem tablets.

But where was I?  Oh yeah!  I'm taking .685 (or something) now.  I have a doctor's appointment in the a.m.  Should I start titrating after this, or get down to .5 first?  (Oh if one is faster AND easier that would be my choice!!!!)

Yes, I think you would probably benefit from titration at this stage. Dividing those tiny tablets into eighths is very unreliable. We should be looking for stability, and there is no way you can be sure of your dosage by splitting these tiny tablets that small.

I have a pharmacist that can make the liquid, what ratio should I get again?  1mg in 20 ml?

I'll leave that to Jana, as she is much better versed than I about which ratios work well.

Thanks again, you've already been a big help!

 

A.

 

P.S.  Ok, Jana, you invented milk titration.  Very clever. 

Yes, it helps a lot. For those that cannot use milk, water can be used instead, but better equipment would be advisable to ensure evenly dispersed benzo within the liquid.

If you do get the liquid benzo before Jana replies, the weaker the liquid, the easier it will be for you manage small cuts.

Hey Colin,

I'm definitely flexible about my taper.  I know I've been a bit agressive so far, but I've been listening to my body.  So far it's been a lot better than I was expecting.  But, I'm not going to push my luck.  I'll hold here for a while, and then start tirating. 

I've been cutting one pill at a time, so at least if I get an uneven amount, I get the right amount for the day.

I've been trying to eat well, and that helps.  I also take magnesium, and I think that helps, too.  I haven't quit coffee yet, I figure when it gets worse, I'll stop, and that'll give me a boost (twisted logic, I know, but I really like coffee).

I quit drinking a month ago, too.  In fact, I'm in outpatient treatment, and they've been totally understanding about leaving the k taper up to me.  That surprised me, and was a big relief.  I was drinking a lot the last 6 months, which was obviously not good.  So I'm sure how (relatively) good I feel has something to do with giving that up.   I was taking milk thistle all along, too, which I've learned may have been speeding the k out of my system, and putting me in "tolerance" withdrawal. 

Thanks again,

A

Hi Alia, You're right about the Milk Thistle. There are even more things  on the to-avoid list. People sometimes think that I'm either joking or nuts when I list things like broccoli. The truth is that it affects some people more than others. It does induce the benzo metabolizing enzyme in everyone though. It really induced mine. It sent me into a bad spin.

Okay, back to what to do now, the odd numbers don't make much difference. It's fine to start a titration at 0.685mg. K. The long numbers make a difference as far as measuring though. So figuring a K liquid strength should be done so that the amount you want to cut will be in 0.1ml on the syringe.

A 1.0mg K to 40.0ml milk will give 0.0025mg in 0.1ml. This is the starting daily cut. If anyone objects to something this weak, a 1:20 strength can be diluted with an equal amount of water at home to make 1:40.

As you titrate, you may want to increase your cut. However, this is a safe choice for a starting cut.

If you use more than one dose per day, don't cut from just one of those divided doses. That creates an uneven blood level and therefore can cause symptoms. Make the cut from the whole day's dose, and then divide that remainder into the doses.

I didn't use Klonopin. I understand from Colin that the half life makes using three divided doses a good choice. If you do have symptoms, you always can start to divide into more doses. You aren't stuck with any cut or number of doses.

Now I'll do some guessing. This is just from my own experience with an equivalent amount of Valium. You may very well be able to use twice the starting cut of 0.0025mg K when tapering from 0.685mg of K. So  a 1:20 strength  is just fine for that.  You may decide to get the 1:20 strength and cut it at home just to start. If that works, you could increase by using the full 1:20mg strength.

A compounded liquid is easier. It's already preserved. You'll do just fine with either strength.

Jana

Oh yes, you divide that cut dose into divided doses by adding it to a known amount of water or milk and then dividing THAT into doses, (much easier).

Thanks Jana.  Great timing, I just got back from my doctor, and I'll be going to the pharmacist soon.  I guess I'll get 1 in 20.

My doctor thinks I'm being a little silly, but she's supportive of whatever I want to do.  She called the pharmacist about the compound, to make sure they would do it.  I heard them giggling about my numbers!  I told her "Don't laugh at me, I know what I'm doing, you don't know!".  I like her a lot, though, she thinks it's cool I'm being pro-active.  She said "however you want to do it, it's your body, you're right".  She told the pharmacist to follow my instructions.  Ha!

I know what you mean about the nutrition.  I believe you about the broccoli, I'll keep that in mind.  We've been learning a lot in treatment about foods specific for healing receptors, lots of interesting stuff.  And things to avoid, obvious ones like sugar, caffeine, beer (ha-ha, it actually says that), but also ripe cheese, black olives, soy sauce, and avacados.  Avacodos are typically one of the healthiest things in the world!!!  But all those things stimulate tyramine, which releases adrenaline.

Lean proteins during the day (they provide tyrosine, which replenishes dopamine (contols attention, motivation, and motor coordination)).  Mixing protein with fat highly diminishes its absorption, though.  Tuna's one of the best things, but must be nonfat mayo.

Turkey, bananas (need to be still a little green,) and tofu release trytophan(replenishes serotonin), which is very good to have to relax in the evening.  It's not in many things, and the brain will use what it's getting the most of, so it's best to avoid the tyrosine and tyramine foods at night, so you can get your tryptophan.  Since it's not in many thing, the body has a loophole system - complex carb rich, protein scarce meals create a unique ability for the body to absorb trytophan, so pasta with shrimp or something is good at night.  (Weird, I know, but that's what the man said.  He didn't seem to be lying. hehe)

Thanks for everything, really.  I'll probably have a few #'s questions later.  I'm a little confused, it seems like I'm going to be having A LOT of liquid.

Love,

Alia

Hi Alia, Thanks for the nutrition information. It seems comp;icated but necessary to remember.

Ridicule is the refuge of the insecure. I've been in many kinds of benzo mess all doctor induced. Now I know why and how, and I won't be deterred by some silly ridicule.

I didn't just dream this up. I extricated myself from a very complicated situation using this method. It's based on Ashton's benzo chart as well as experience that came long before me. I just assembled what was already known. (Well except for the milk emulsion part)

The big lump cuts do work for many people. I don't think that they should change a thing. The rest of us must be more observant and resourcefull

Jana.

It wasn't so much ridicule, it was good natured, and she admitted that I may know more than her about it.  I do know people have had trouble with there docs and stuff, what a nightmare.  I'm really glad I found info before I started tapering.

I know you didn't dream this stuff up.  Before the k, I was in extreme anxiety (long story.  But I didn't drink at the time).  My doc finally gave me some xanax to give me some relief.  It was such a relief, but it only lasted a few hours.  I took a lot for about a week, and ran out on a saturday, I've never felt such a thing in my life.  It was surreal.  The ground was rushing up at me.  Oh just a million things, I felt like a maniac.  After 1 week!  I had to go too a clinic to get through the weekend.  They gave me enough to last until I got to my doctor.  But my doctor was out of town, so this other one gave me K.  I had already gained some info by then, and kept my dose steady at 1 mg. for the past year (although I did start drinking a lot at some point, which was crazy).  I never intended to stay on it this long, but here I am. 

I have no desire to suffer, I am going to slow it up now for sure.

Take care,

Alia