hit the wall

Hi:

My turn to ask a question, sorta using an ashton taper 10 days to drop a mg, started at 12.0 V, rocky road but tolerable.

3rd day into 5.0V a day seem to have hit a wall where s/xs are a bit worse. I've got 2 options due to my "Quack"

1) See if I can convince aforementioned "Quack" to give me more time, iffy. 2) Supplement the V with Valerian root,melatonin, calms forte etc. anything else oh and magnesium.

Thanks Bobers

Hi Bobers,

Sorry about the wall coming on so soon. What are all of your symptoms? What was the schedule that Dr.Q imposed? How much have you dropped in the last two weeks?

Did Dr.Q prescribe the Valium? Does Qr.Q have experience with benzo tapering? (I have some suspicions  ) Some doctors will just impose the Ashton Manual sample tapers and not read the part about having to adjust as the doses are cut and as peoples' bodies do their individual responses.

How are you feeling otherwise?

Jana

Hi Jana:

1)Higher anxiety, slight headache general buzzing increase, and strangely lethargy and apathy.running thoughts which increase insomnia.

2)I talked "Q" into 12 weeks

3) 1.5 mg

4) yes he prescribed  > no benzo awareness

5) PHYS s/xs seem to have recede somewhat,PSY still there.

I may have screwed up and taken a double dose of B.P meds which may have affected me as side effects are similar, loaded up on calms forte and mag, with 1 Valerian seemed to even me out. Strangely I had had an energy that I could put to use in prior weeks now blah I need to talk to Q I haven't been overly rushing but I could see myself running out of V at 2mg a day with no way to get more so I don't want that to happen

thanks B

Hi Bobers,

I'm not sure of what your daily dose is. It looks like either 5.0mg. or 9.0mg V.

Cutting by 1.0mg V doesn't sound like a taper. It's at least like jumping off from twice the amount that Ashton had used and sometimes four times.  Even if you allowed a whole month between the 1.0mg cuts, you would still have a very rough time.

So because you haven't caved in from this regime, I'd say that you have a good ability to taper. You are just forced to do more than a human can adjust to.

The maximum that Ashton's people cut was 2.0mg per month. If you titrate, you probably can do 3.0 mg per month. Even I could do it.

SO if you really are on 9.0mg per day now, by titrating and not ever holding a dose, you could just make it in three months.

I don't like to see you have to cut at that same rate during the last month, but Q is running the show.

If I'm wrong, and you really are on less than 9.0mg, this will be  much better.

I have no clue to why some people have the idea that a fast taper is a healthfull thing to do.     

Using Valerian and other things to force your way through a taper  isn't a real taper. At the end, you're still left with  some benzo need. That often results in a reinstatement of some benzo, and that feels really sad.

So right now, just tell me , in simple English, what your daily dose is and if it is enough to cover your symptoms decently.

Jana

Jana:

In simple English 5.0mgs of Valium a day, Ashton reccomends 1or 2 weeks on a dose. to drop a mg. I'm taking ten days,and had to fight for that, my "Q" wanted me to taper in 2 or 3 weeks from 12mg of Valium. I don't know f I'm suffering more or less than someone else, or more than I should be all I know is its uncomfortable but tolerable. Maybe because I'm judging the experience from the perspective of doing a 10 day C/T in the past. I'll lay off the Valerian for now.I've gone from 12 mgs of Valium to 5.0 mgs of V since jan. 30th, again easy no, tolerable yes.

Thanks Bobers

Hi Bob,

At this stage, I'd be cutting by no more than 0.5mg. Smaller cuts do not necessarily make the whole process longer, as it's easier to get over a smaller cut, and then be ready for a new cut! Smaller cuts are kinder to your body.

Hey Colin:

Thanks I wish you were my Doc, he still refuses to believe any of my S/Xs are related to Benzos I'll do my best to slow down,but I have to ration my supply Of V as if it were the last water in a desert.

Bobers,

I know. Your doc wants to say that you have an underlying craziness. He is projecting his own problem onto you. 

As things stand Q will allow 10days for 0.5mg in cuts right? I suggest  that you cut 0.25mg every five days. It will feel better that way and allow time to make repairs.

Then if this becomes too much, and it may now that you're at an official low dose, you can easily titrate off of the rest. This should give you the softest landing within Q's demands. Working within Q's rules, you need to maximize your healing in little time. So can you do 0.25mg V every five days to start?

Jana

Hi Jana:

Dr "Quack" has no protocol or plan, I lied to him so that I could get enough to cut 1.0 mgz in 10 days. He thought I was going to cut 1.0 mgs in 7 days,but he didn't bother to do the math so I bought my self an extra 36 days,  As I said he wanted me to eliminate use in 2 or 3 weeks.  When i switched to V I had made a fast cut to try to see where stable was for me , it was to fast I relayed this to him and he said impossible you haven't been on V long enough to feel this, totally ignoring my X dependence or its relationship toS/Xs. So long story long, I can slow down at lower doses I'll have to redo the math to see my maximum length of time I can cut 1mg, but somewhere I'll fall short I guess its better to fall short at 0.5 mgs than 5.0 mgs. I'm pretty much working with a finite quantity, and figured I'd push on until  I push the envelope  to borderline intolerable and slam on the brakes.  I know Valerian root is benzo related but its got to be easier to eliminate than a benzo, so thats why I suggested it as a supplement, my taper is not a perfect world.

ah the slings and arrows etc. Bobers

Hi Bobers,

If Valerian helps, I'd use it. You need every edge. It isn't exactly benzo related. It just affects that GABA receptor. I used it for my final eight weeks. I  needed some sleep. It worked well enough, and it didn't retard the taper.

The only problem with it would be in using large doses to force your taper faster than your body can manage. Q isn't helping this one bit. 

Your body will recover faster if you make smaller cuts. You can do them more often and so stay on the same schedule. of amounts cut in a certain time.

I don't know where Q got his information. I suspect that he invented it on the spot. It happens.

Is it out of the question to find a more thinking doctor?

Jana

Hi Jana:

Its not out of the question to try and find another doc. I did a cursory phone search, prior to My present "Q' and those that understood were pushing Klonopin so I can imagine the reaction about complaining at the 5 mg V. Level.

I can do a more through search or bully , my present "Q' in to submitting.

In re: to Valerian I was using 1600mg caps 1 or 2 times a day to even out the heebie jeebies, the reccomended dietary use as a supplement is 3 caps 3X daily, so I was well under that.

Breaking news .just got back a blood test that indicates low sodium levels due to my BP meds which include a diuretic.

Interestingly the S/Xs of this are headaches, lethargy,and muscle spasms.

So this may be adding to my back sliding and gumming up the old works I can fix this and see what arises.

Thanks Bobers

Hi, Bobers,

Sorry to hear about Dr. Q.

Could you gain a little more time by telling him that you accidentally "forgot" to cut your dose one of the weeks, so you're a little behind and need more V? Or could you say that something hugely stressful just surfaced in your life and you want to "sit" at the dose you're at for a few weeks, just until the (imaginary) stressor is over? Heck, benzo w/d is a huge stressor, so that's not really even lying!

Therese

Bobers,

That's a good point. I had forgotten how they shrug off a 5.0mg dose of Valium. It's not insignificant to people who are still on 5.0mg.

Maybe some of Therese's creative thinking will help. In banzo fog we DO make those little mistakes. 

Jana

Hi T&J:

I don't care if I lie to him, he doesn't know what he's talking about anyhow, I'll figure something out if the sodium fix doesn't work, I did the math and I can slow down a bit and get off at a .5mg of V instead of lower, I think and hope that will work. Insomnia will be the stopper as sleeping seems to override any deficiency's if I can actually sleep for 5 or 6 hours its extremely  rejuvenating, but I appreciate the input.

Thanks Bobers

Hi Bobers,

I have the same response to sleep. Things that hurt are so much better after some sleep.

I guess I've listed every one of my sleep tricks. Sometimes I use all of them. The tenseness of the W/D doctor situation doesn't help sleep at all.

Jana

Hi Jana/ or anyone:

Here's a Wacky  Question, I know you can use the equivalence's chart to convert Xanax into Valium for taper purposes. ie: 1 mg X= 20mg V. Do to My "doc" problems can you convert X into V?  to use as a supplement to my V quantity? Or are the two half life's so different that it would cause more harm than good making me an

Thanks Bobers

Bob,

I say keep things simple. Equivalences is not an exact science - we vary! Switching is always risky, and it always takes some time. You are well on your way to quitting - don't complicate things (take risks) unnecessarily!

Hi Bobers,

It's an interesting question. Just because we never know when a change will stir up trouble, I 'd go as far as possible with Valium. I surely wouldn't toss out any benzos yet though.  You may be able to jump off of your expected 0.5mg V, but if this should go badly, you'd need to control the new situation. Q certainly won't be any help at that point.

If that point should arrive, you could make some very small liquid doses of Xanax to taper further.  The 1:20 ratio does seem to work. You wouldn't have to lose any ground at all.  It isn't ideal, but you have to work with what Q has left you. You may be just fine without it.

Jana

Hi J&C:

I Will stay away from the  experiment, just trying to cover all base to anticipate any problems and remedies I have at hand, but we shall see what we shall see as I haven't hit the stage where I might need alternatives.

Thanks for the advice

            Bobers

Hi Baobers,

Having a backup plan can take away some of the anxiety in this tense situation. The extra benzo may do some good just waiting and never being used

jana

Hi:

Anyone ever try dramamine(motion sickness OTC) for insomnia aid, I thought I read somewhere that it could help.

I only ask ,because benedryl works, but I'm such a large person I'm at 50mgs already, and Jana said she worked up to 50.

I dont want to reach a tolerance of benedryl with a couple of months left. This may not belong here but oh well

Thanks Bobers

Hi Bobers,

Both Dramamine and Benadryl are sedating antihistamines. There's a third antihistamine in Unisom. I still have all three in my cookie jar. Only Benadryl works for me.  :'(  That doesn't mean that the others won't work for you.

Jana

Hi:

  just  wanted to add a weird symptom  the long list of weird symptoms associated with this, let me use a Medical term here... "crap". My tinnitus faded to the background today, however my Blood pressure jumped about 20 points. Just an anticdote.

Bobers

Hi:

In regards to sleep problems, does anyone have an opinion or experience with Ramelteon, sold in the states as rozerem.

supposedly it binds to Melatonin receptors in the Suprachaismatic Nucleus (SCN), as opposed to the Z products that bind to GABA A receptors. any Info or personal experience would be appreciated, as I'm close to tolerance on Benydrl, I suppose I could take more but then......

Thanks Bobers

Bobers,

This is just my personal opinion, but it seems to me that anyone who wants to try Rozerem should try taking plain old melatonin first. Have you tried that yet? All Rozerem does is increase the effectiveness of your melatonin. So let's bypass the man-made chemical and go right to the source--take the melatonin itself. I'm just really wary of anything that works on the receptors--that seems to me to be asking for trouble.

I take 6 mg of melatonin a night, and it's really helping. I think you can probably get some at any pharmacy. That's where I got mine.