Tapering off valium

hi I'm Jessica, Im new here.

 

I was taking .75mg of xanax 3 times a day for about 3 weeks. I developed depression from it and also the unmistakable benzo-fog. I was changed over to 5mg of diazapam 3 times a day to taper off that instead. I stayed on that for a week then dropped to 5,2.5,5 for a week the again dropped to 2.5,2.5,5. At this point I began to feel constantly nauseaus , which I cannot deal with as I am an emetophobic (fear of being sick). I rang the doctor and he said to go back up to 5, 2.5, 5. I felt better after I did this. Does this mean I should taper off more slowly. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Valium has also started making me depressed :'(

Hi Jessl,

 

Welcome to BenzoBuddies.

 

On the face of it, according to the experiences of Prof. Ashton, you may have switched to too low a dose of Valium as an equivalent. What is an equivalent dose does vary from individual-to-individual though. On top of this, you stayed on your Valium-only regimen for only one week before starting your taper - I'm not really surprised that you felt unwell. To be frank, if you came here and said that you'd only been taking Xanax for three weeks, I'd have suggested that you look at the possibility of tapering directly off of Xanax, BEFORE you became dependant upon it. You are now where you are though. How long have you been on benzos - I estimate from the information you have provided that it is about 7 weeks?

 

I'll be frank, I'm not sure if how you are feeling is because of all the recent changes in your medication and dose, or if it's purely how you react to benzos - they can have a depressing effect. I think the best thing you can do is try stabilising at your present dose and see what happens. It may be the case that you need to get off the Valium before you will feel better - so that asks the question 'how fast should you taper?' Can you get back to us with some more details of your benzo history and how you felt with all the changes. Also, keep a diary. You would be wise to wait for other responses, as I'm unsure of what I think would be the best course for you to follow right now. I am sure others will pipe-up with ideas, experiences and suggestions though.

Hi Jess,

As Colin suggested, keeping a log of doses and symptoms is a big help. Any benzo can cause real and awful depression. It's hard to say if one was worse than the other in your case.

 

Ashton's equivalence charts are awfully good.  I'd take them seriously. My  former doctor said that 1.0mg of Xanax was equal to 5.0mg of Valium. So you see, some doctors have no clue to what they are talking about. For the purpose of withdrawal, he was off by a factor of four.

 

Ashton also lists half life. A drug doesn't work alone. The body has it's input into the drug's effect. In other words, the listed half life may mean very little if you metabolize the benzo faster or slower than most people do.

 

The point is that you must find your own best dose, and these are only guidelines. There are more gentle ways of tapering than what is offered in Ashton's work so cheer up.

Jana

 

 

Hi again, thanks for the replies.

 

I have been on valium before, 2.5mg at night for about a month, but it made me depressed so I tapered off it

quite quickly. I Had major panic attacks every time I dropped but I didn't feel ill all day. But back then I was also on cipramil which, I now believe, stops my obssesive thinking which is now constantly making me feel ill. It was dreadful as I constantly panicked at night for about 2 days after the taper and then would settle until next taper.

 

I missed two doses of the xanax when I was on it and quickly experienced severe withdrawal (unsteady, hearing things, paranoia, feeling things on my face).

 

Now I am off the cipramil and on avanza which doesn't help at all with anxiety so I was tapered down to 7.5mg to keep me eating as I dont have much of an appetite because of the emetophobia. I am 8kg underweight which is why they didn't want to put me on too much valium. I am also on Largactil at night to stop panic attacks and to sleep.

 

Thats all I can think of right now, hope it helps.

Hi Jess,

 

How long have you been taking xanax?

I was taking .50mg for about 2 weeks once a day just to get out of the house. Then we went down the coast and I had to up it to .75mg 3 times a day to survive, I stayed on that for about 3 weeks.

I was less than clear. I'm trying to understand just how long you have been on benzos. How many weeks in total?

Jessl,

Yes, it is difficult to say what is causing the W/D symptoms, but I'd say that one of the causes is too little Valium.

 

Ashton's charts are equivalences for the purpose of withdrawal and not for the  other  goals of benzo prescription.(Anxiolytic, muscle relaxation, amnesic, and antiseizure) If your doctor doesn't deal with benzos regularly, he may not inderstand that there is a difference. No no matter what combination of reasons for symptoms, one of them is too little Valium. For W/D, 1.0mg Xanax = 20.0mg Valium. This is rarely not correct.

 

Valium does make some people feel just yucky. It can make people feel sluggish. I wasn't crazy about Valium, but it still was the best choice for my situation.

 

Do you have a copy of Ashton? Would your doctor feel threatened if you suggested that he read it or at least the 1.0mg Xanax= 20.0mg Valium part? You really do need to be stable before tapering.

 

I tapered from an inadequate amount of benzo and right after a C/T so  I know how important it is not to skip those steps that I had to skip.    You don't want to do that.

Jana

I didn't realise the dose of valium I was on was not enough for the Xanax. I believe the main reason they didn't want to put me on to much was because of my low weight and low blood pressure. At the moment I am on 5, 2.5, 5. I don't really want to go up as that seems like a backwards step, I'm not sure what to do. I am going to see my Psychiatrist on wednesday and ask him about it. At the moment I'm in a bit of a rut. A good day surrounded by bad days and then another good day. I just hate feeling good one day and doing lots of things and then feeling crap the next and not being able to do anything. I can't predict myself, I dont know what tomorrow will be like. But that seems to be one of the side effects so I'll just have to put up with it.

Hi Jessl,

I really understand about not wanting to use any more benzo than  is absolutely necessary. What is absolutely necessary? This is something that only you can know.

 

It is very important to be stable before tapering. Stable means that your condition is not generally worsening. It doesn't mean being symptomless. So you may be able to taper from your current dose. It would be good to keep a daily record of your symptoms and their strength and drugs of any kind. This can be usefull for communication during visits with doctors as well as for making your own decisions.

 

Is your doctor familiar with The Ashton Manual? Taking an extra copy to your doctor for reference is a good idea.

 

By the time I got my Valium prescription, I had dropped the need for 30.0mg V. It was a rough and grisly process. I was allowing some very heavy symptoms just to be taking the least Xanax possible. So while I was titrating from 5/8 of a mg of Xanax and that would have translated to 12.5mg Valium, the doctor suggested  15.0mg Valium to start. This turned out to be a good idea.

 

I found that I could make the first cuts from that 15.0mg V  Then at 13.5mg Valium, things got really bad. I had found my limit.  You may find your limit in a similar way.

Jana

 

 

 

Well, I seem to be getting gradually worse on the 12.5mg I'm on, gradually feeling more depressed, panic attacks coming back. I have already tapered off valium before and went cold turkey off cipramil and went through hell, then on to avanza which gave me akathesia. Im not sure I can do this again, I know I cant stay on the valium, I dont want to. I constantly think about killing myself, I dont see any other way out. I dont know if I have the strength to go through this again, I dont want to. Life doesn't feel worth it anymore. Whats the point of having all the good things and not being able to enjoy them? I dont know what to do. I need help, but no one can do anything anyway. Its all hopeless.

Jessl,

This is not hopeless and I'm not just saying that to keep you going.

 

First, you've tapered off benzos before. For some reason, that changes it for the next time. Do you remember that I was on Valium for over ten years and just stopped one day with no problem at all? Then I took a benzo by another name, quickly reached tolerance, and eventually went through a bizarre hell. I even had auditory halucinations but knew that they were halucinations. I had partial seizures. A medical doctor had done all of this and continued to lie so I had to do the rest alone.

 

It does seem as though there's no way out. That's the benzos talking. You don't have to do it the hard way again. There always is a way, there are as many ways as there are benzo victims. Please hold on and try to relax. I'm going to look up your A/D's and try to get some inspiration. Your doctor may listen if this is presented carefully.

You are far from alone at BenzoBuddies. We're small but intense.

Jana

Thankyou so much, I am so glad I found this forum. I need to talk to someone but feel if I constantly talk about it to my parents and boyfriend I will drive them away. It's nice to have someone that actually inderstands because they have been through it too. I feel a bit better now, my moods go all over the place and sometimes I get scared of what I could do to myself, I know its the drugs, I never had suicidal tendecies before I went on them. It's like losing your identity in a way. Thankyou for your support and quick replies.

Hi Jessl,

 

As Jana said, it's the benzos talking. I know it's tough - I've been there too - but it will pass. Your dose is not so high; you should be able to taper off reasonably quickly. Just take it steady and as it comes. You stand every chance of beginning to feel better long before your last dose too. Try to be positive - it can help.

 

Other people often have a tough time understanding, but again, I wonder now how much of this is the benzos talking. Because we feel so confused, we assume that others will not understand. All others really need know is that we have become addicted, through no fault of own, and withdrawal is protracted and difficult. We need their patience, understanding and support. If we can rely upon those around us for these things with other problems, why do we feel they cannot help us with our withdrawal? What might help is if you copy some feedback that you feel helps explain what you are going through, and show it to those whose support you require. You know that what you are going through is not unique to you, and by showing this to others, they might understand too.

 

Take care.

 

 

Edited for clarity

Hi Jessl,

Do you know the reason for prescribing each drug? You've been taking some serious meds. I am confused about why a doctor would prescribe some of these in light of your symptoms. I'm still looking up things, but right now it seems strange to prescribe Largactil if you are hypotensive. I'd like to make a list of questions that you should your pharmacist.

 

This is chlorpromazine,( Largactil) used for a day or so for vomiting, but it has some powerful other effects.

 

What was your diagnosis? Chlorpromazine is primarily for schizophrenia. It doesn't present the  dependency problem that benzos do, but it still must be tapered.This is because a sudden loss of the drug may induce seizures so be careful with this.

 

It also is anticholinergic. When used with Benadryl, Largactil's own anticholinergic effect can easily add to that same sedative effect. It can feel almost like depression. It makes people feel sluggish and sleepy. So that explains at least one reason that you don't do well with Benadryl.

 

Drinking more fluids can help to off set the hypotensive effect. In fact, additional fluid is suggested when using Largactil. Fluids can help most hypotension. I did this for very low BP during the summer.

 

Largactil isn't a usual drug. It's old and has some undesirable effects.

 

You need to know the reason for any drug. You also need to know what each one can do alone and in combination.

 

Right now, you are far from stable. You have a complicated benzo W/D because youare using Largactil but once again, don't just suddenly stop taking it. You'd need a taper schedule to do that.

 

Psychiatrists usually plaster multiple labels on anyone. It's still necessary to ask yourself if this is correct. I think that your low substitution dose of Valium  would be the real problem if you weren't being treated with other drugs.

 

Your doctor should explain the reasons for each drug. You can look up eachdrug, but that won't tell you why it was prescribed.

 

You may not have been given enough Valium to stabilize you, but you because of your hypotension. However Largactil can cause hypotension and a lot more.

 

So do you have an official diagnosis, and do you have a pharmacist who will look at your drug combinations?

 

You can't taper while in this condition.

 

You are free to share every bit of crappy emotion here. We're not likely to find understanding from even the kindest outsider person. A psychiatrist or therapist can't know either unless s/he has been where you are. Benzos are confusing, and the place to talk will be a benzo site.

 

I'll still get back here when I finish finding the information. You shouldn't be kept in the dark when it's your body that's being treated. You have a Wednesday psychiatrist appointment so I won't take long.

Jana

Jana,

My official dianosis is Emetophobia (fear of being sick), Panic disorder, Generalised Anxiety disorder, almost agoraphobic and possibly ADD.

My psychiatrist prescribed me the Largactil because Valium only relaxes my muscles but not my mind. My Panic disorder can be completely intact in my head while on Valium. I still panic in my mind. The largactil stops the panic in my mind and lets me sleep, it was also given because of its antiemetic effects as I am constantly afraid of being sick. Although it doesn't take away any of the nausea.

 

I stay on the Avanza only because it makes me eat. When I was not on it I was starving myself because of the fear of food making me sick. I am quite underweight. Its effects on my anxiety stopped working after 4 weeks and it also gave me akathesia so the dose was redused from 30mg to 7.5mg. The akathesia went away thank god.

 

I am also on nexium because I developed stomach problems from taking too many ibuprofens. I did this because when I was on cipramil it gave me sinus and I also have painful periods. This apparently damaged the stomach lining, the course of these finish tonight.

 

thanks,

Jessl

Jessl,

The pattern of most psychiatrists is to prescribe an extra drug when the previous one casued trouble. There are less tricky drugs for your conditions so it's surprising that  the old chlorpromazine is being used. I'll copy some of the drug information later today so that you can see why this is puzzling.

 

You may already have noticed that your diagnosis is just  a statement describing how you feel with the word disorder after it. This isn't a statement about a real medical disease, though I'm sure that these symptoms are truly distressing.

 

Your doctor may be primarily treating your fear of eating.You do need to eat. You can't repair the damage that the benzos did unless you get the proper building materials for these repairs. Can you use any food supplememts? It looks as though you need a major tune-up.

Jana

Jana,

I went to my Psychiatrist yesterday and he put me up to 10mg of largactil 4 times a day to try and stop the obsessive thinking and suicidal thoughts. I might also have to go back on an antidepressant. He said to not continue tapering the valium until I am stable. Took 10mg this morning at 10 and had a shower at 12, heart rate went through the roof, vision slightly blurry, feel like in a bit of a fog. Not sure the Largactil will be so good. back to him on friday to talk to his wife about NLP.

Jess

Jessl,

Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) is something to consider.  I think that one session with a practitioner can be enough. It puts you in control. If you can try it for your eating problems, you might be pleasantly surprised. The EFT manual can be downloaded, but it's a  long and wordy document.

 

I know a local social worker who does this now instead of psychotherapy. He has helped benzo people too. This doesn't require that you drag up masses of old trauma. It does seem like a good alternative for you.

Jana

Hi, Jana. My namie is Carol and I have been on BB a few times. Marsha told my friend Kimmie to contact you as we are both dealing with coming off of xanax. Kimmie is a bit under the weather today, but I hope she can become a member soon, as Marsha thinks you could really help. But since I am here now, instead of Kimmie, could you maybe give me some advice> I am 65 years old and have been on xanax for over 25 years. The highest dose I was on was 15mgs a day, but that was only for about 2 or 3 years. I have tapered down to 4 and 3/4mgs of xanax and 45mgs of valium. The trouble I am having is almost like Kimmies. I thought that since Valium had such a long half life I wouldn't get inter dose w/d, but I do. I think I actually did better on the xanax. The valium is very sedating and depressing and causes great anxiety..at least for me. I was going to go to the Coleman Institute for the flumazenil detox, but because of my age and the high dose of meds, Dr, Coleman and Dr. Currie...Curry???..are going to re-evaluate my case. I would go in a heartbeat if I thought it would work. Marsha said you know everything there is to know about xanax, so your input would be greatly appreciated. Is it possible to do a direct taper off of xanax??? Or do you think maybe I tapered off the xanax too quickly...because I think I did. I just don't know...everything is so confusing and at my age, I just want some normalcy back into my life.

Thanking you in advance,

Carol

Jana,

I only took the 10mg dose of Largactil in the morning and in knocked me out for half the day so I skipped the dose at lunch time and then took 10mg at 7 and 10mg at 10. I dont want to take it in the day as I can hardly do anything. I will tell my psychiatrist this today. He is considering putting me back on Lexapro. Im not sure if I want to do this after going through the trauma of coming off cipramil before, it feels like that was all for nothing. But it may be the only way to stop the obsessive thoughts and depression. What do you think?

Jess

Hi Carol,

 

I'm unsure of what to write. Your are on a very large amount of benzos. The usual recommendation is that you first taper off the Xanax, and then the Valium. As you are probably aware, Xanax has a short half-life - this leads to "interdose withdrawal" effects. Valium, however, has a very long half-life - this allows for a smoother withdrawal. At the same time, we can react differently to withdrawal - feeling drowsy with Valium is quite common. However, this is often seen as a plus, especially if you have not been able to get a good night's sleep for some time, so can be very useful in substitution. This drowsiness usually wares off though after some time. How long have you been taking Valium?

Hi Carol,

 

Im Jessica. They switched me over from xanax to valium straight away and I understand how you feel. The doses you are on are way higher than mine but I can totally relate to the sedating and depressing effect it has on you. I also get major anxiety when I taper down a little, so they stopped me tapering for now until I'm stable. Jana gives great advice and has helped me heaps already and im only at the beginning. Just wanted to let you know you are not alone.

Jess

Thank you Colin and Jessica. I have been on Valium for around 3 months now. My biggest problem is that I am having BIGGER inter-dose w/d from the valium than I did on the xanax. I am so disappointed with this outcome. I knew the w/d was not going to be a walk in the park, but I though the anxious inter-dose feeling would at least stop somewhat. If I take a dose at say 8 in the morning, by 9 I am ready for another valium..I am shaking and can hardly wait for my next dose. That happened on xanax, too, but I could go for almost 3 hours before the inter-dose set in. I'm wondering why. I was sure, with the long half life of valium, that this would not happen. I know of 3 people who have gone for the flumazenil detox. One finished a bout 2 months ago and is fine, the other 2 are still in Virginia being detoxed. I hope they reconsider my age and do this detox on me. I would like a little quality of life before I can't do anything anymore.

Thank you so much for answering me. It means a lot.  And Jessica, I hope things start clearing up for you. Good luck.

My Best,

Carol

Carol,

 

We have have come across too many that have been damaged by detox for us to ever recommend it. The only thime where it woiuld be appropriate is in the rare case of someone suffering a toxic reaction benzos, and it is dnagerous for them to stay on them. If we have become addicted or dependant upon benzos, we can usually expect to feel very ill after detox, often for months afterwards.

 

I'm not totally clear about what you are taking at the moment - are you still on the Xanax?